No Demand for the TLM?

[paramedicgirl]

I think its hard for people NOT devoted to the TLM to deal with and accept people who ARE devoted to the TLM**, because the former take that as an insult to their mass and as a personal affront.**

The latter are sometimes guilty of making the former feel this way. But that doesn’t explain the animosity of many Novus Ordo Catholics to this Motu Proprio.

I have noticed this…

 

[BobP123]

It just doesn’t interest me.

Then what brought you to this forum?

 

[Genesis315]

But there are Catholics that know it is an option. They know how to find one. But they are not interested in finding one, because they have no desire to attend.

I think it is hard for people devoted to the TLM to understand that there are faithful Catholics that are just not interested in the TLM.

This is true–at my former Cathedral parish, the TLM was stated right in the Bulletin, right on the website, and right on the sign out front. And the fact is, the TLM attendance was very, very small(and people came from all over the diocese) compared to the NOM attendance at the three other Masses (just from the parish, basically) .

I think most Catholics are indifferent. If all of a sudden half the Masses at their parish changed to TLM, I think folks would continue going to those Masses as always, the change wouldn’t be a big deal. For most people, the time and location of the Mass is more important than what form it takes. I think the only people who are really against it are certain liturgical directors, music directors, and the like (and some clerics, who now have a kneejerk reaction against the TLM and its supporters because certain groups like the SSPX, sedevacantists, and various other folks with a bitter zeal have loaded it up with negative baggage.)

 

[maryjk]

Then what brought you to this forum?

I guess you mean this thread, because the forum is open to everyone.

And I came to this thread because it came up under new posts. And I thought it was interesting that someone was asking about possibly less demand for the TLM, than some people might think.

I figured I would read a lot of posts about how the study was wrong and how all faithful Catholics would want the TLM in their parish. Or if people knew about it, they would want it. Or similar stuff.

I wasn’t disappointed.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I guess you mean this thread, because the forum is open to everyone.

And I came to this thread because it came up under new posts. And I thought it was interesting that someone was asking about possibly less demand for the TLM, than some people might think.

I figured I would read a lot of posts about how the study was wrong and how all faithful Catholics would want the TLM in their parish. Or if people knew about it, they would want it. Or similar stuff.

I wasn’t disappointed.

Just curious. By that comment do you mean that you are happy that there isn’t more interest in the TLM?

 

[BobP123]

I think most Catholics are indifferent. If all of a sudden half the Masses at their parish changed to TLM, I think folks would continue going to those Masses as always, the change wouldn’t be a big deal. For most people, the time and location of the Mass is more important than what form it takes. I think the only people who are really against it are certain liturgical directors, music directors, and the like (and some clerics, who now have a kneejerk reaction against the TLM and its supporters because certain groups like the SSPX, sedevacantists, and various other folks with a bitter zeal have loaded it up with negative baggage.)

Yes, sad but true. I think people “accepted” a new way of doing things after Vatican II because (1) they’d still be fulfilling their obligation; (2) they would still be able to go to the same parish listening to their same priest; (3) Mass times were the same for the most part; (4) get to finally shake hands with the people you saw many times but never really got a chance to say “hello” etc etc. There are other comfort zones to take into consideration but those worked for me.

But what’s really interesting is that I’ve been at parishes where there was more of an uproar in changing the Mass schedule than there was in bringing in liturgical dancing. Funny we creatures of habit are.

 

[maryjk]

Just curious. By that comment do you mean that you are happy that there isn’t more interest in the TLM?

No, not at all.

Its kind of like when you get lots of people that like, lets say, grits. And you say you don’t like them or that you can take it or leave it. Human nature is that grits eaters are going to start telling you that you haven’t tried good ones or that you haven’t tried theirs or whatever. They just can’t accept that some people don’t care for grits.

People that like the TLM, most likely as part of human nature, cannot accept that others either don’t like it or can take it or leave it. They have to come up with some reason that the study was wrong.

I wasn’t disappointed in human nature.

 

[BobP123]

Just curious. By that comment do you mean that you are happy that there isn’t more interest in the TLM?

I guess we’ll just have to keep those 19,000,000 google hits on the subject to ourselves. (Don’t want to frighten away the detractors. )

And with a number that low, it will be tough to start a real TLM bandwagon.

 

[paramedicgirl]

No, not at all.

Its kind of like when you get lots of people that like, lets say, grits. And you say you don’t like them or that you can take it or leave it. Human nature is that grits eaters are going to start telling you that you haven’t tried good ones or that you haven’t tried theirs or whatever. They just can’t accept that some people don’t care for grits.

People that like the TLM, most likely as part of human nature, cannot accept that others either don’t like it or can take it or leave it. They have to come up with some reason that the study was wrong.

I wasn’t disappointed in human nature.

I disagree with the comment I bolded. Others are free to choose their attraction to a particular Mass. I don’t care one way or the other which Mass they choose - as long as they are valid Masses. I believe you have a misunderstanding that recruiting support for the TLM among those who desire it, (whether they attend it or just wish it to be available for those who desire it), is in some way forcing it on others.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic and don’t get personal, people. Thank you.

 

[universalindult]

I am a faithful Catholic, that really, sorry about this, couldn’t care less if there was a close TLM.

You couldn’t care less.

Even though there are many fellow Catholics desperate for convenient access to a TLM.

You have summarized the contemporary problem quite well, as well as the primary source of animosity between trads and non-trads.

 

[brianwalden]

I’m one of those under 30 Catholics who’s never experienced the TLM and doesn’t know Latin but I’m eagerly awaiting the Motu Proprio. The closest I’ve come to a TLM is watching it on a DVD from the Coalition Ecclesia Dei.

While I do have a curious interest in the TLM, I think what I want more than anything is a reverent Mass regardless of whether its TLM or NO. I’d like to go to a parish where the rubrics aren’t treated as a strategy guide for testing how much you can get away with at Mass. I doubt my parish will convert one of its masses to the TLM, but I’m hoping that the reverence of the TLM will eventually rub off on the NO if it’s used more commonly.

And I echo the comments of people who said that the amount of traveling necessary to go to a TLM restricts interest. I volunteer to raise money with my Knights of Columbus council at my parish two Sundays a month and I help to write the prayers of the faithful and other parts of Mass. I’m tied to my parish and I think its important for me to help as much as I can (if all the people who weren’t happy with the liturgy left, the “Spirit of Vatican II” folks would run away with parish). If my parish somehow did adopt a TLM I would go simply because it would be the most reverent (and least distracting) Mass for me to attend on Sunday. On the other hand, if instead my parish decided to take one of its Sunday NO Masses and celebrate it how Vatican II actually intended I probably wouldn’t have much interested in scouting out neighboring parishes for a TLM.

Maybe in a few years (hopefully years not decades) when the two rites exist more equally I’ll have a preference between the two, but when you’re starving the difference between a sirloin steak and fillet mignon is miniscule. I’ll take meat any way I can get it at Mass.

 

[universalindult]

Maybe in a few years (hopefully years not decades) when the two rites exist more equally I’ll have a preference between the two, but when you’re starving the difference between a sirloin steak and fillet mignon is miniscule. I’ll take meat any way I can get it at Mass.

Amen.

That is why I DO care, deeply, about the reform of the reform. Even after we get convenient access to a TLM (at present we drive 75 miles one way to the neaerst one) I will STILL** care** deeply about the reform of the Novus Ordo, and its transformation into what VII intended.

I would NEVER tell a fellow Catholic that I don’t care whether they have access to a mass where they feel at home and fed, and where they get a sense of the sacred and holy.

To not truly care about what is, at its core, the spiritual and temporal wellbeing of fellow Catholics is one of the primary fruits of the false “spirit of VII” – self-ism.

 

[maryjk]

To not truly care about what is, at its core, the spiritual and temporal wellbeing of fellow Catholics is one of the primary fruits of the false “spirit of VII” – self-ism.

Boy did I start something.

What I meant about not caring was that it doesn’t matter to ME one way or the other.

To take from that, that I do not care about the spiritual wellbeing of my fellow Catholics is really stretching it. And ridiculous.

Much like saying that being a faithful Catholic not interested in the TLM is an oxymoron. Ridiculous.

 

[universalindult]

Boy did I start something.

What I meant about not caring was that it doesn’t matter to ME one way or the other.

To take from that, that I do not care about the spiritual wellbeing of my fellow Catholics is really stretching it. And ridiculous.

If you insist.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

We’ve had a TLM for years in our city (about 150,000). Well done TLM, too, in a beautiful old Oratory.

It’s not well-attended. A hundred people, perhaps?

I know people in my parish who go a few times a year for old times sake (often on their mother’s birthday or some other special occasion).

Very conservative Bishop, liturgically correct Masses in the parishes.

I respectfully disagree Cat. I’ve been to St. Mary’s Oratory several times. Mass attendance has grown that they had to add another Sunday Mass. Fr. Bovee says the 7:00 and 9:00 Mass at the Oratory and then travels to Virgil (just west of St. Charles) to say the 12:30 Mass. One priest travelling 120 miles round trip to say 3 Sunday Masses.

I don’t know the last time you were at 9:00 Mass at St. Mary’s but the attendance surpasses 100. It’s not a very large church but it is always between 75%-85% full for the 9:00 Mass. I’ve never been to the 7:00 Mass so I’m not sure on its attendance.

St. Patrick Church in Rockford also offers the Traditional Latin Mass at 9:00 on Sundays. There is a good deal of interest in the Latin Mass in Rockford. I have provided a link with Mass times for the Tridentine Mass in Illinois and the USA.

ecclesiadei.org/masses.cfm#Illinois

The people who attend don’t attend for “old times sake.” I grew up with the Novus Ordo and I attend the Tridentine Mass regularly. It’s not because of “nostalgia” or out of curiosity. I attend because the sacrificial nature of the Mass is clearly presented. The prayers, the rubrics, everything about the Tridentine Mass is decisively Catholic. I know I’m worshipping God “in Spirit and in Truth.”

Many of the attendees at the Latin Mass at St. Mary’s and elsewhere are younger than me and I’m 43. Again, it’s not nostalgia or curiosity that draws these younger people to the Latin Mass. It’s authentic Catholic worship.

I also attend the Novus Ordo (I’m a lector at my parish). I usually attend the Novus Ordo daily. I’m well acquainted with both rites, as are the majority of the people who attend the Tridentine Mass on a regular basis. I can’t speak for others but I can speak for myself. My soul gets nourishment at the Tridentine Mass that it is not getting at the Novus Ordo. I’m not disparaging the Novus Ordo in any way. It is a valid and licit Catholic Mass. However, it is not spiritually nourishing me the way the Tridentine Mass nourishes my soul. I wouldn’t attend the Tridentine Mass if it were nourishing my soul in the same way.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

But there are Catholics that know it is an option. They know how to find one. But they are not interested in finding one, because they have no desire to attend.

I think it is hard for people devoted to the TLM to understand that there are faithful Catholics that are just not interested in the TLM.

I think it’s even harder for Catholics who don’t like the Tridentine Mass to understand there are faithful Catholics who aren’t interested in the Novus Ordo Mass no matter how much “reform of the reform” takes place.

It’s human nature to believe that the rite I attend is the only rite that matters and that anyone who may want to attend a different rite need to get with the times and abandon their archaic rite.

There are faithful Catholics in union with Rome who attend the Tridentine rite exclusively. These people should not be made out to be schismatics or sedevacantists because of their legitimate choice to attend the Tridentine rite.

It’s also human nature to be arrogant and tell people that nobody wants their archaic rite. Here’s a link that shows the growth of the Tridentine Mass in the United States from 1988-2006. There is considerable growth in the Latin Mass despite the best efforts of modernist bishops to suppress it.

ecclesiadei.org/Information.htm

I realize the facts get in the way of those who want everyone to believe that the Tridentine Mass is just a bit of nostalgia that has gone the way of the Edsel. I believe the real reason these people want everyone to believe nobody wants the Tridentine Mass is because they know their rite will go the way of the Edsel if the Tridentine Mass is allowed to be offered without any restrictions.

 

[Cat]

That’s good to know, Swiss Guard. I read the Observer and saw that the Oratory has the two TLM Masses on Sunday, plus the two daily Masses.

I think we are extremely lucky to live in this diocese and to have such a good Bishop. I’m glad there is a choice here. We even have choices at my parish on Sunday: no music, traditional, folk, CCM, rock, big choir. It’s great-everyone can find a home.

I guess I was just thinking of how many Catholics go to some of the other parishes in the city, and of course, how many thousands and thousands of people attend the new megachurch as well as some of the other “alternative” non-Catholic churches. There’s a lot more of them then there are TLMers.

My conclusion is that a TLM is not going to produce a huge surge of interest that will pull people away from the NO Mass and away from many of the evangelical non-Catholic churches. Again, I hope I’m wrong. I want people to come “home to Rome” anyway possible (and that includes clown Masses! Believe me, they have to be better than sitting in a non-Catholic “worship experience!”)

And IMO, if there were only a few people interested in TLM, that still justifies offering it. One of the bad mistakes that many non-Catholic ecclesial communities have made is eliminating all forms of traditional music in the worship services (including locking up the organ) because there are so many who prefer contemporary Christian music and rock music. Often, it’s not that there are so many CCMers, it’s just that they’re more vocal about making their wishes known. Meanwhile, the traditional music lovers either sit and wish for an old hymn, or they attend a different church, often a Mainline chuch that has liberal teachings (e.g. pro-abortion rights).

It’s sad to see people disenfranchised from their own church. I’m with the Tradtitionalists on this. What I’m against is when people criticize the Mass that others prefer. I happen to like contemporary Masses. To someone like me, who came from an evangelical non-Catholic ecclesial community, these Catholic contemporary masses are still extremely conservative and formal! It’s a question of perspective.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I would agree with the good Dr., there is quite a bit of support for the traditional Mass-but it is hidden below the surface and sometimes neeeds a bit of prodding to get out. I think my fellow Trads know the deal, you need to get a certain “feel” with people before you blurt out, “Oh, and by the way, I like to assist at the traditional Mass at my local FSSP/ICRSS parish…” or any other sort of traditional leanings. You might strike up a pleasant conversation with someone (young or old) about how much they like the traditional Mass or Gregorian chant or might be met with a tirade against that “old Mass where the priest turns his back to the people” and how they’d rather leave the Church (yes, I’ve gotten that…) then go to the Latin Mass.

Then, we have to realize the general ignorance that many people have of the traditional Mass-or even the NO Mass. They have convinced themselves right off the bat that they don’t like “Latin Mass” because they won’t understand it, that they won’t feel “connected” because Fr. has his back turned to the people. Unfortunately, the well informed Catholic layman (whether his preference is for TLM or NO) is a rare breed. I completely respect the man who prefers the NO in the way that it is intended to be celebrated. I can’t empathize much with the guy who has not lifted a finger to educate himself by reading so much as a book or two or a few articles or at least looking into the matter at all-which leads me to my next point.

As others have said, people tend to be creatures of habit. I would bet that if I get a parish someday and switch out all the popular Sunday Mass times to a TLM most of the people would go to it. If I made the NO available at 5:45am, Noon, and 3:00pm and the TLM at 9:00am, 10:30am and 5:00 pm (Saturday and Sunday) I doubt anyone would really mind-especially after they realized that they aren’t goaded into doing anything as their level of participation is completely and totally up to them.

As to bringing people home to Rome, one would be surprised that we had more converts (at least in percentage) in the day of the Old Mass. Why was this? I dunno, it depends. You always had (and will always have) folks that convert primarily because they married a Catholic and see the need for a united family religion. This is good, but not always the most fervent of conversion. Other people converted for theological reasons-they saw the errors of Protestantism and swam the Tiber. Others went this way too, but were swayed by the grand reverence and ceremony of the Mass and the very prayerful and pious atmosphere of the churches and the Faithful. They also knew (instinctively, if nothing else) that Rome wast truly the rock that never pandered and that never compromised and was not afraid to tell you that you were wrong.

Now days there are still plenty of good folks that convert for strong reasons, but sometimes the burden of the cross of having to put up with the scorn and chastisement of your Protestant family and former church is made heavier by the cross of leaving a rather “Catholic” Protestant church for a rather “Protestant” Catholic church. That, or the church they left had strong preaching and if the Catholic priest of their parish has no or poor preaching skills we can’t fall back on the splendor of the liturgy-which is most likely not there.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Isn’t that one o them oxymorons?

That’s the kind of comment that leads me to oppose wider use of the Tridentine Mass. The tiny minority of people who attend that Mass think the vast majority of Catholics are not really Catholic. Thanks for nothing.