No future for Europe without return to Christian roots, says Cardinal Kasper [CNA]

[Darryl1958]

I would think the views of a German such as Cardinal Kaspar would be as valid and as European as the views of any other European.

Of course, given the state of Europe today, it is not surprising that they are viewed as something foreign, American even.

 

[edwest2]

Oh brother. I have relatives in Europe. I spoke to a German man a few weeks ago.

There is this terrible cliche about a “golden age that never existed” proposed by the Radical Left on both sides of the pond. Europe and America in the late 1950s and early 1960s was practicing its faith more than now.

The Radical Leftists are constantly agitating for change. The Polish Peasants’ Party does not want Poland to join the EU. Why? Because along with certain economic considerations, they would have to accept abortion. The EU is not just an economic concern but a purveyor of certain evils championed in America and Western Europe. It’s a tragedy whenever some country wants crosses removed. That is what Cardinal Kaspar is talking about - atheistic actions that cover and deny Europe’s Christian past in an attempt to impose a Secular European Union Order.

In the end, like in a shipyard in Gdansk, the power of the Holy Spirit will be spread.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Oh brother. I have relatives in Europe. I spoke to a German man a few weeks ago.

And that makes you an expert? I am married to an American. I speak to him every day. I lived in the US for several years. My daughter is an American citizen. I have relatives in the US. Oddly enough, I don’t consider myself an expert on all things American.

The Polish Peasants’ Party does not want Poland to join the EU. Why? Because along with certain economic considerations, they would have to accept abortion. The EU is not just an economic concern but a purveyor of certain evils championed in America and Western Europe. It’s a tragedy whenever some country wants crosses removed. That is what Cardinal Kaspar is talking about - atheistic actions that cover and deny Europe’s Christian past in an attempt to impose a Secular European Union Order.

Where do I start? Let’s see. Poland is already a member of the European Union. Poland has legalised abortion and had legalised abortion before it became a member of the EU.

What specific evils has the EU perpetrated? Hard facts please.

What country wants crosses removed? If you’re referring to Italy, let me remind you that that case had nothing whatsoever to do with th EU.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

I met a man in Antrim who knew a man in Larne…

The ‘good old days’ are a bit like the Holy Roman Empire - which was not holy, nor was it Roman, nor was it much in the way of being an empire

 

[Darryl1958]

His views seem no more simplistic than your own. Actually the views of leftist in general are rather predictiable no matter what country they are from.

It is not his being German that makes him seem so foreign to the left, but the idea that he would want to see some continuity in Europe in regards to its two thousand year Christian history. That is what the left—which has increasingly become the European identity—sees as foreign.

Christianity has been integral to European identity and European culture. It has infused European art and philosophy and modes of thought and expression for two thousand years. It has been the soul of Europe from the Urals to the Atlantic. Christianity is the common bond which allows there to be a Europe in the first place. No language, nor custom, nor food nor ethnicity defines Europe as somehow distinct from Asia. It is geographically indistinct from the continent of Asia.

Christianity alone has been the common bond.

One need not be an expert on Europe to hear the message that Europe is no longer be described as Christian, but as secular. In a secular Europe, the Christian past will become more and more foreign to European residents. It will be viewed as simplistic, superstitious, even silly—like an America where so many still believe in the ‘creation myth’.
That is the message that we are getting from Europeans here at any rate.

This is a complete break from the past. It is not so much a progression or an evolution from the past, but a complete rejection of that past as something simplistic, a mythical golden age that never really existed, that is indeed not even real in the lives of most Europeans now living. The effect that such a past have on the lives has become minimalized to the point where they feel free to reject it completely, to deny that it even existed.

A people exist as a reality only to the extent that they possess a common heritage, a past which is believed in and animates them, a communion with the saints that are more than mythic creatures from a Golden Age that never really existed in the first place.

A people that has no past has no future.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

It is not his being German that makes him seem so foreign to the left, but the idea that he would want to see some continuity in Europe in regards to its two thousand year Christian history…

You are the only one who has suggested that the Cardinal’s words are ‘foreign’ to European ears. They are not ‘foreign’ but they do not address many Europeans’ experience of the Church or even the history of the Church in Europe and for that reason his words as quoted are simplistic, naive even. There is no going back to some ‘golden age’ of Christianity in Europe but if there were, what time exactly does the Cardinal suggest?

Europeans are well aware of their Christian heritage; it is in our art and philosophy, our architecture, our customs, our world view, even in my country’s case, our very language. A study published in 2006 on European religious attitudes states that a majority of young people in Europe still describe themselves as ‘religious’ and that that majority is increasing. But they have no sense of ‘belonging’ to a church. They believe but are unchurched. Now if the Cardinal were to address that phenomenon and open an honest dialogue with Europeans instead of offering simplistic soundbites, it might be the start of something worthwhile.

 

[Darryl1958]

Recalling the “new intensity and urgency” in the commitment to relations between Eastern and Western churches after the fall of the Berlin Wall, the cardinal said that it also brought back to the surface the schism between Rome and Constantinople in the 11th century.

Evidence of “existential emptiness” was seen on both sides, remarked the head of the Vatican dicastery for Christian Unity. The West was seen to be characterized by "post-modern indifferentism and the mentality of consumer escapism,” while the East was marked by “the blameworthy traces and spiritual devastation” resulting from “atheist propaganda” of the Communist era, Cardinal Kasper observed.

Addressing these issues in the current situation, Cardinal Kasper warned, “If Europe wants to have a future again, it must first and foremost renew its Christian roots.” This renewal’s only chance of success, he added, is through the re-evangelization of the continent.

The 77-year-old prelate noted that in their crises, the East and West face similar challenges, historically being civilizations “deeply defined by the Christian faith.”

He added that it isn’t Christianity itself, rather its “inculturation” that is in danger in Europe. The continent is marked by spiritual weakness, he said, and it needs a renewal beginning with the healing of Christian divisions.

“To find its spiritual and missionary strength again, Europe needs a new-found unity, first and foremost among Christians.”

It doesn’t seem like a simplistic sound byte to me.
An un-churched people are a people unschooled in the ways of their faith.

Why are these words so beneath the sophistication of the average European Catholic as to merit no further discussion other than they are simplistic, and naive sound bytes?

 

[miguel]

I think this shows that the Republic of Ireland has maintained a crucial connection to its Christian roots.

In the US before 1973, most states had legal restrictions. I know in California at the time, the removal of those restrictions by the people’s elected representatives was well underway. But legal abortion was imposed on all states since 1973 by the US Supreme Court in clear violation of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution which prevents the states from depriving any person of life (i.e., without due process of law) and also requires them to provide any person with equal protection of the laws.

The point being that with respect to abortion, judicial bodies have been known to impose their will in blatant contradiction to written constitutions. So keep an eye on those EU Courts.

 

[Darryl1958]

Roman Catholic priests and bishops and cardinals are among the most educated people in any society.

Is is possible that a Cardinal Kaspar, speaking of “existential emptiness”, post modern indifferentism, “consumer escapism” the spiritual devastation of the East through Marxist propaganda, is so far off the mark, and simplistic and naive in the eyes of a Europe that has become too sophisticated for his message of Christian unity?

He certainly sound educated to me. For an unchurched people though, unschooled in the ways of their faith, such words are beneath their dignity to respect.

 

[Timothy17]

Enforced? You’ll have to expand on that a bit. And whatever about existentialism, I think you’ll find that another continent heads the league in moral relativism and secularism.

My point was only evaded in that statement, then the inclusion of an unsubstantiated opinion finished the evasion. Perhaps that other continent you speak of is Asia or Australia?

That’s a matter of opinion.

My forefathers bleeding on the shores of Europe is no opinion.

Funny how the Church couldn’t successfully stand up to the equally evil fascism in all its manifestations throughout Europe. It sold out to Mussolini to protect its real estate - small wonder that Italian communists made such headway during and after the war. It failed abysmally to challenge Hitler and did nothing when its eldest daughter, France, was raped and pillaged by the Nazis. So much for winning hearts and minds.

The Church was the very first and only Western institution to stand up to and against fascism. It repudiated and condemned as evil the foundational points of National Socialism, upon which mass murder and every conceivable injustice was founded. It did so in 1937 specifically, when she was surrounded by Hitler’s ally.

The Church had originally condemned as evil a litany of errors upon which both fascism, and especially communism, was founded. The Syllabus of Errors, available since the 19th century, is one example.

I’m sorry, my friend, but according to history Europe is -without the teachings of the Church, without Christianity- especially dangerous. And hardly are errors confined to Europe, hardly is evil confined to there, but nonetheless there in Europe are the evils most justified, there are the errors most strongly propogated and protected by law.

That continent is converting itself into a giant Ambsterdam, and there seems to be no stopping to it. I cannot fool myself into pretending or imagining that a Europe hell-bent on repudiating itself of Christian teachings and foundations will create anything except a terror for its own citizens, and a danger to the world’s.

 

[Darryl1958]

This is a thought provoking item. In many ways Europe has put in practice Christian values that were unheard of before the Enlightenment. The social welfare programs are examples of caring for one’s brother that represent real advances that should be applauded by right thinking people. I’d like to know what era the Cardinal would like Europe to return to. I suspect he is not urging a return to Christian roots, but a return to massive ecclesiastical involvement in people’s everyday life. The Church is still present in Europe but its political power has been eroded; that seems to be the real issue.

Many Europeans today seem to confuse the teachings of Marx with the teachings of Christ.

In terms of what he is advocating, the article makes clear that he is aiming for a christian unity in Europe again where the Orthodox and the Catholic see in their teachings common cause and common purpose. He is looking toward a Europe that most people will describe as Christian rather than secular, where churches are filled with life rather than the art relics of years gone by.

He is speaking of culture. Marx, on the other hand, sees history on in terms of materialism and power.

For those who have become so enculturated into the leftist point of view, it is apparently impossible to understand the cardinal.

Yet, there is absolutely no evidence at all that what the Cardinal is proposing is massive ecclesiastical involvement in peoples lives, a return to the Church of Pope Innocent at the height of papal political power.

There are a minuscule few, usually younger, usually male, Catholic maverick stragglers that have that as a fantasy goal. It would be pure baseless folly however to understand the
cardinal’s words in those terms. It is the only limitations of leftist understanding, which sees the world only in terms of power and materialism, that would understand the cardinal as proposing such.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

My point was only evaded in that statement, then the inclusion of an unsubstantiated opinion finished the evasion. Perhaps that other continent you speak of is Asia or Australia?

You are apparently no stranger to evasion yourself. My request for an expansion on your ‘enforcement’ assertion goes unanswered

My forefathers bleeding on the shores of Europe is no opinion. Oh please. That is the best contribution you can make to advancing this debate? Your forefathers weren’t the only ones whose blood stained the soil of some continent or other. But I’ll desist or we’ll be into futile whataboutery.(

The Church was the very first and only Western institution to stand up to and against fascism. It repudiated and condemned as evil the foundational points of National Socialism, upon which mass murder and every conceivable injustice was founded. It did so in 1937 specifically, when she was surrounded by Hitler’s ally.

The Church had originally condemned as evil a litany of errors upon which both fascism, and especially communism, was founded. The Syllabus of Errors, available since the 19th century, is one example. St Anthony of Padua, a thirteenth-century Franciscan preacher, complained that the Church in his time was ‘bloated with words’. Apparently things didn’t change much down through the centuries. And for all its words against fascism, when the crunch came - as history shows - the Church preferred silence and the protection of its assets.

I’m sorry, my friend, but according to history Europe is -without the teachings of the Church, without Christianity- especially dangerous. And hardly are errors confined to Europe, hardly is evil confined to there, but nonetheless there in Europe are the evils most justified, there are the errors most strongly propogated and protected by law. Again, you write of ‘evils’ and ‘errors’ ‘protected by law’ but without some explanation of what you mean and on what you base this opinion, this is nothing more than empty rhetoric.

That continent is converting itself into a giant Ambsterdam, and there seems to be no stopping to it. I cannot fool myself into pretending or imagining that a Europe hell-bent on repudiating itself of Christian teachings and foundations will create anything except a terror for its own citizens, and a danger to the world’s. **I presume you mean Amsterdam (?) but I fail to see your point. And may I remind you that adherence to Christian teaching and foundations were of little help or consolation to the countless victims of the wars of religion? **

 

[edwest2]

A few words about Europe:

brusselsjournal.com/node/596

God bless,
Ed

 

[Kaninchen]

I often wonder what’s the purpose of these ‘European’ threads - other than serving to confirm the views, on either side, that the other hasn’t got the slightest idea of what they’re talking about.

 

[livnlern]

I think the good Cardinal is referring to the values taught by Jesus Christ himself and carried forward to the present day through Apostolic succession by the Roman Catholic Church. Those values do include caring for those who cannot care for themselves, especially the unborn, respecting the human rights of each person from conception to natural death, honoring our God, our parents, protecting our children, spreading Christs’ message of love, respecting the marriage convenant and protecting the family structure including a woman as mother and a man as father and accepting as many children as God chooses to send us. Those Christian roots will sustain all nations until He comes again to call us home to heaven.

Well said, Sherry G. What more can be asked for than a healthy respect for life and for Catholic Christian values? I also agree with the poster who said that the US needs to return to these as well.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

A few words about Europe:

brusselsjournal.com/node/596

God bless,
Ed

QUOTE:

A European Union advisory panel has issued a statement saying that medical professionals are not allowed to refuse to participate in abortions. According to the **EU Network of Independent Experts on Fundamental Rights **doctors should be forced to perform abortions, even if they have conscientious objections, because the right to abort a child is an “international human right.”

Oddly enough, neither of the vital links in this extract - bolded above - go anywhere. Now why is this, do you suppose?

 

[Yellow_Belle]

I often wonder what’s the purpose of these ‘European’ threads - other than serving to confirm the views, on either side, that the other hasn’t got the slightest idea of what they’re talking about.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

It is the only limitations of leftist understanding,

which sees the world only in terms of power and materialism

That is rich coming from someone whose world view consists of dividing the world’s population into Left and Right, where Left = everything that is wrong and evil (and probably European), and Right = all that is good and wholesome (and almost certainly not European)

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Why are these words so beneath the sophistication of the average European Catholic as to merit no further discussion other than they are simplistic, and naive sound bytes?

Because they do not address any reality. They offer a simplistic solution to complex problems. Europe cannot become a tabula rasa on which Christianity can be re-written. Re-evangelisation programmes are not going to work unless they address the reality that is Europe in the 21st century. You cannot put new wine in old wineskins - yet that seems to be precisely what Cardinal Kasper is advocating. Plus, the Cardinal represents a Church that is perceived as compromised and discredited. Why should anyone believe him?

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Sometimes joined by an Irish Blueshirt