No graven images?

[RNRobert]

It’s amazing how some anti-Catholic myths refuse to die, no matter how many times their disproved. What’s more amazing is that they continue to be spouted by non-Catholics who ought to know better. A case in point:

Now he’s venerating statutes. I remain Presbyterian – and I will never leave the Church of God. I adhere to its creeds – but yes I study theology & I have a brain. When I read no graven images I understand no means NO! When I see people venerate dead bodies encased in glass tombs – yes I think it’s heresy.

Now, shortly after God gives Moses the commandments, he tells him:

Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory. This propitiatory you shall then place on top of the ark. (Exodus 25:18-21, NAB)

Later, when God sent poisonous snakes to punish the Israelites for being rebellious, and the people repented:

and the LORD said to Moses, “Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.” Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered. (Numbers 21:8-9, NAB).

In later years, when Solomon built the temple, we see that in addition to the cherubim, outside the temple there was a bronze “sea” supported by twelve bronze oxen (2 Chronicles 3:10-13, 4:2-5).

Now, when God ordered Moses to make the cherubim for the ark, and later the bronze serpent, was he contradicting his commandment against graven images in Exodus 20:4-5, or was he distinguishing between objects used in religious worship as opposed to worshipping the objects themselves as God?

Some will quote 2 Kings 18:4 where Hezekiah destroyed the bronze serpent when the Israelites they were offering incense to it. This was, of course, justified since the object had outlived its usefulness (the Israelites were no longer in the desert where they were endangered by snakes) and it was being misused. However, it does not change the fact that its manufacture was ordained by God, and that it had healing qualities (it also foreshadowed Christ- John 3:14).

So, do Catholics “worship” statues? No. No Catholic who is properly taught believes that we give worship to objects. We venerate them for what they represent, the same way we salute the flag to honor what it represents. As for “venerating dead bodies encased in glass tombs,” the key word is venerate. We do not worship them the way we worship God, we simply honor them, the way the secular world honors it’s fallen soldiers.

 

[Thing]

sola_scriptura:

Now he’s venerating statutes.

I bet sola_scriptura obeys, (honours), his home State’s statutes.

 

[RNRobert]

I bet sola_scriptura obeys, (honours), his home State’s statutes.

I think he meant to say “statues.” I didn’t notice the mispelling until now.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

Some will quote 2 Kings 18:4 where Hezekiah destroyed the bronze serpent when the Israelites they were offering incense to it. This was, of course, justified since the object had outlived its usefulness (the Israelites were no longer in the desert where they were endangered by snakes)

What usefulness has god ordained for the use of statues and such today?

and it was being misused.

Unless statues, etc. have some God-ordained use for us today, how are they not being misused?

However, it does not change the fact that its manufacture was ordained by God, and that it had healing qualities (it also foreshadowed Christ- John 3:14).

Are statues in a CC ordained by God? Do they have healing qualities?

 

[Fox]

I’d ask if he/she had pictures of their family members in their wallets, purse, home etc. I’d explain that we use statues to help us remember the person since most people are visual. We aren’t worshiping the statue or the person that it resembles, We are asking for their prayers and help since these people are in heaven and that their prayers are more perfect than our own.

 

[cfrancis]

Often ignored by non-Catholics - and by, it seems, Watchful Pilgrim - in a discusion of Ex 20:4 and graven images (it’s not just about statues, but carvings and all forms of representation) is the building of the Temple in 1 Kgs 6 and 7.
By their understanding of Ex 20:4, all the graven images in the Temple are agains that commandment, especially the oxen in 1 Kgs 7.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

As the o.p. pointed out - it’s all in how we treat them, is it not? I’ve no doubt most statues, carvings, etc in the CC are not worshipped, but I have seen some with kneelers and candles in front of them. Only God knows if that is considered worship or not, but to many it certainly does look like it and if nothing else, it does cause some scandal. There isn’t much difference between lighting a candle before something and burning incense before it. Both represent our prayers. What do children think when they see it? I’m afraid some people may fall into the sin of idolatry b/c of the practice. God only knows.

Not trying to pass judgement - just telling you how it appears and the possible danger I see in it.

Peace~

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

Often ignored by non-Catholics - and by, it seems, Watchful Pilgrim - in a discusion of Ex 20:4 and graven images (it’s not just about statues, but carvings and all forms of representation) is the building of the Temple in 1 Kgs 6 and 7.
By their understanding of Ex 20:4, all the graven images in the Temple are agains that commandment, especially the oxen in 1 Kgs 7.

Those were God-ordained images. Furthermore, I believe the sin is in the misuse of the images. God commanded Moses to make the bronze serpent. Notice He did not command them to burn incense before it, and when they did so, the serpent was destroyed b/c it angered God. Shouldn’t we learn something from this?

 

[cfrancis]

As the o.p. pointed out - it’s all in how we treat them, is it not?

Exactly.

I’ve no doubt most statues, carvings, etc in the CC are not worshipped, but I have seen some with kneelers and candles in front of them. Only God knows if that is considered worship or not, but to many it certainly does look like it and if nothing else, it does cause some scandal.

When a non-Catholic kneels to pray, in the office, in the home, wherever it may happen, is it thought the one in prayer is worshipping whatever is in front of them? What if said person in holding the Bible in front of them while praying?

There isn’t much difference between lighting a candle before something and burning incense before it. Both represent our prayers. What do children think when they see it? I’m afraid some people may fall into the sin of idolatry b/c of the practice. God only knows.

If children are being educated in the faith, no problem; if they aren’t, there are bigger problems than what you mention.
As the Church Triumphant can carry our prayers to Christ for us, candles are appropriate.

 

[Thing]

I’m afraid some people may fall into the sin of idolatry b/c of the practice. God only knows.

Not trying to pass judgement - just telling you how it appears and the possible danger I see in it.

Peace~

Don’t be afraid. Its -]hard/-] impossible to confuse 50kg of plaster with the Creator of the Universe.

 

[VociMike]

Is it also a scandal when people kneel in front of their bibles (I’ve seen many, many pictures of that)? Surely the bible (a communication from God, but not God) can also be venerated in excess, can become an object of something that looks like worship. But nobody ever seems to address that log before going after the Catholic “speck”.

We live now in an incarnational time, and we have an incarnational faith. Matter is not the enemy. Christ made the deliberate choice to use matter many times for his teaching and salvific purposes.

 

[tobias]

Exodus says to not make any graven image or likeness of anything created, and qualifies it by saying we not bow down to or serve them.
So what is the context. The isrealites were just delivered from 400 years of slavery in Egypt, the Egyptians bowed to (worshiped as gods) and worked for and gave offerings to statues and images of pagan gods. They were being brought to the land of Canaan, having similar practices regaurding pagan images. They were being seperated from the other nations. It is clearly a seperation from pagan practices and pagan gods, for YHWH seeks to be their only, the true God. Thus the Catholic division of the commandments has this as part of the 1st commandment, for it is the pagan worship of other gods and is not distinct from 'having other gods. The Israelite knowledge of the worship of other gods is soley linked to the pagan worship of statuary, imagery and persons (pharohs).
As far as kneeling before statuary and lighting candles, their is no link to Catholic worship. Of course it is possible to be poorly cathecized, but this can have a serious impact on the faithful in any area of truth.
The Catholic notion of worship is only phisically related to the Eucharist, and no it is not wafer worship, for we do not worship the accidents of bread and wine, but believing the words of our Lord, we have faith that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. We are not able to percieve in the Eucharist what we truly believe it to be, but believing His words, worship Christ where He said He would be present. The CC does not teach that a saint is present in statuary, or that statuary need be present to communicate with a saint, for death does not seperate us (church) who are in Christ.A properly cathecized person understands these things on at least a basic level.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Don’t be afraid. Its -]hard/-] impossible to confuse 50kg of plaster with the Creator of the Universe.

Or anything you have to dust off.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

Exactly.
When a non-Catholic kneels to pray, in the office, in the home, wherever it may happen, is it thought the one in prayer is worshipping whatever is in front of them?

Of course not.

What if said person in holding the Bible in front of them while praying?

Just by chance? No problem. But no one puts a kneeler in front of it to intentionally kneel before it and pray. Ok, maybe some do, I have no idea, but it would be questionable if they did.

Don’t be afraid. Its hard impossible to confuse 50kg of plaster with the Creator of the Universe

I should hope so! Unfortunately, I’ve no doubt that some people do confuse them. They automatically assume that God has put His power in them and uses them. I know people like this. I know a woman who talks to her bust of Jesus b/c the nightlight bulb in front of it blinks and she thinks He talks to her through it (like code or something). We’ve all heard stories of bleeding statues and miraculous statues. Is it any wonder people may believe they have good reason to pray TO the statue???

Thus the Catholic division of the commandments has this as part of the 1st commandment,

Yes, this I did not know as a child. I was shocked to learn about the graven images commandment. It was NOT a part of the 1st commandment at all in my learning (8 years of Catholic school). I know you believe the CC had the authority to change the commandments that way, but it doesn’t seem right to me.

As far as kneeling before statuary and lighting candles, their is no link to Catholic worship.

Maybe not to yours, but what of others? (for instance, the example I just gave)

Of course it is possible to be poorly cathecized, but this can have a serious impact on the faithful in any area of truth.

No one ever addressed idolatry in my learning. I don’t think it’s touched on in catechesis.

The Catholic notion of worship is only phisically related to the Eucharist, and no it is not wafer worship, for we do not worship the accidents of bread and wine, but believing the words of our Lord, we have faith that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. We are not able to percieve in the Eucharist what we truly believe it to be, but believing His words, worship Christ where He said He would be present.

I understand this. If there is no Real Presence in the Eucharist, only God can judge whether or not it is idolatry.

The CC does not teach that a saint is present in statuary, or that statuary need be present to communicate with a saint, for death does not seperate us (church) who are in Christ.A properly cathecized person understands these things on at least a basic level.

I realize that. I don’t believe the CC teaches there is a presence in the statues, but I think some alleged mystical phenomenon in the CC with statues has many people disillusioned into believing that there is a presence there or that God will use them. That burying St. Joseph upside-down in the front yard to sell your house thing is a bit strange too

 

[cfrancis]

From the statement:

Thus the Catholic division of the commandments has this as part of the 1st commandment,

WP says:

Yes, this I did not know as a child. I was shocked to learn about the graven images commandment. It was NOT a part of the 1st commandment at all in my learning (8 years of Catholic school).

Here is the Ex 20 version of the Commandments:
1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

WP, please show me how you divide these into the Commandments, and explain your division. Thank you!

 

[Church_Militant]

… Unfortunately, I’ve no doubt that some people do confuse them. They automatically assume that God has put His power in them and uses them. I know people like this. I know a woman who…

Without any documenting evidence that even “many” Catholics might do this, this is nothing but your personal speculation and therefore a fallacious argument.

Whatever the one person you mention does (which is also unverifiable) has nothing whatever to do with actual authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching, which in your case appears to have been neglected and rejected.

There is nothing in the Bible that states that the use of images and icons as correctly done in the Catholic faith is an error, but the iconoclastic position has long been refuted and has more in common with fundamentalist Islam than Christianity.
Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

 

[Thing]

I should hope so! Unfortunately, I’ve no doubt that some people do confuse them. They automatically assume that God has put His power in them and uses them. I know people like this. I know a woman who talks to her bust of Jesus b/c the nightlight bulb in front of it blinks and she thinks He talks to her through it (like code or something). We’ve all heard stories of bleeding statues and miraculous statues. Is it any wonder people may believe they have good reason to pray TO the statue???

I hope you’re not talking about your mother. If somebody thinks a statue is talking to them its not because they are Catholic its because they need professional psychiatric help. So don’t call them a Catholic, call them a doctor, I’m serious.
People who think Catholics talk to statues because they think God has put His power in *the statue *are showing their ignorance, and they need help too.
Have you ever heard of moving statues? Possibly?
Have you ever heard of those physical, statues moving themselves to heal the sick? Possibly not.
Have you ever heard of any material substance, which does not have the power to move, move, and heal the sick?
I have heard of the last one.
Many people hung around this piece of material waiting for it to move, when it did move they went for it and the first to reach it was cured.
Strange, no?
Maybe you need psychiatric help too, because you believe in this last one, yes you do I say, you believe that God sent His power into a piece of inanimate material and made it move for the people present and it cured them of their illnesses when they touched it. Gosh!

 

[RNRobert]

What usefulness has god ordained for the use of statues and such today? Unless statues, etc. have some God-ordained use for us today, how are they not being misused? Are statues in a CC ordained by God? Do they have healing qualities?

While there is nothing verbatim in the New Testament about the use of statues in churches, there is nothing forbidding their use either. After all, there is nothing verbatim in the NT about the Trinity, Incarnation, etc, but those are accepted by most Christians.

As the o.p. pointed out - it’s all in how we treat them, is it not? I’ve no doubt most statues, carvings, etc in the CC are not worshipped, but I have seen some with kneelers and candles in front of them. Only God knows if that is considered worship or not, but to many it certainly does look like it and if nothing else, it does cause some scandal. There isn’t much difference between lighting a candle before something and burning incense before it. Both represent our prayers. What do children think when they see it? I’m afraid some people may fall into the sin of idolatry b/c of the practice. God only knows.

If you kneel in front of your bed while saying your prayers, are you worshiping the bed? Of course not. When I attended a Baptist church, I occasionally helped out with one of their youth groups that began its meetings by saying the pledge of allegiance in front of an American and a Christian flag while holding our hands over our hearts. Were we worshiping the flags? Of course not. It is true that some superstitious or poorly taught people may ‘worship’ statues, but that is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are many non-Catholics who seem to reverence their Bibles on a level bordering on idolatry, does that mean we should throw them out too?
As for healing qualities, that is entirely possible. We already have the example of the bronze serpent. God also used the bones of Elisha to bring a dead man back to life (1 Kings 13:20-21), and a woman was healed merely by touching the hem of Jesus robe. Other people were healed merely by touching cloths that had been handled by Paul (Acts 19:12). As VociMike said, we have an incarnational faith, so God can and does use ordinary items to work miracles.

 

[tobias]

Yes, this I did not know as a child. I was shocked to learn about the graven images commandment. It was NOT a part of the 1st commandment at all in my learning (8 years of Catholic school). I know you believe the CC had the authority to change the commandments that way, but it doesn’t seem right to me.

If you really went to Catholic school for 8 years and never heard the entire 1st commandment and never had to do an examination of concience or had it explained to you, you missed a lot of school. Just because you choose to follow the Jewish numbering of the commandments does not make it right. They got many things wrong, like the Old Testament canon and the Messiah. As I sais before, the worshiping of graven images is having other gods. Coveting goods is avarice, coveting another mans wife is lust. To equate things with human beings is about as sick as it gets. Remember, the 2 shall become 1, not you will become one with your house. Women are not chattle.

Maybe not to yours, but what of others? (for instance, the example I just gave) No one ever addressed idolatry in my learning. I don’t think it’s touched on in catechesis.

I think your memory is hazy. There were many things I suddenly remembered on my reversion.

I understand this. If there is no Real Presence in the Eucharist, only God can judge whether or not it is idolatry.

It is either Good to worship Christ or not. for the record, the accidents of bread and wine are not graven images and likenesses. Because we do not visably recognize the accidents as the body and blood of Christ, we must worship in spirit, through faith.

I realize that. I don’t believe the CC teaches there is a presence in the statues, but I think some alleged mystical phenomenon in the CC with statues has many people disillusioned into believing that there is a presence there or that God will use them.

Just because Protestants, JW’s and Mormons misread the Bible does not mean I should throw mine away, lest I misread it.

That burying St. Joseph upside-down in the front yard to sell your house thing is a bit strange too

So was the waiting for the waters of the pool of Siloam to be stirred so as to be cured of sickness, but Jesus cured the man who believed this and did not rebuke him for it.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

From the statement:

WP says:

Here is the Ex 20 version of the Commandments:
1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

WP, please show me how you divide these into the Commandments, and explain your division. Thank you!

I don’t know what you mean about divide. These are the commandments. Period. I was never taught the one about graven images - as if it never existed.