No graven images?

[WatchfulPilgrim]

Without any documenting evidence that even “many” Catholics might do this, this is nothing but your personal speculation and therefore a fallacious argument.

Whatever the one person you mention does (which is also unverifiable) has nothing whatever to do with actual authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching, which in your case appears to have been neglected and rejected.

There is nothing in the Bible that states that the use of images and icons as correctly done in the Catholic faith is an error, but the iconoclastic position has long been refuted and has more in common with fundamentalist Islam than Christianity.
Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT

You and I have discussed this before. I will just say that there is plenty in the Bible about the use of images. There is nothing in the Bible about the use of them in the Christian church. In the Bible, there is nothing positive about thier use except where it was ordained by God. The rest of what the Bible has to say about it is very negative.

I know the CC has refuted the iconoclastic position. Also notice that I am not taking the actual iconoclastic position here. I am talking about “bowing to them, etc…”; how they are sometimes treated as idols with their candles and kneelers and such. The fact that you do not know of any churches like this or any particular people who believe these statues have power does not erase the fact that there ARE. And since many churches are set up this way with their statues and kneelers and candles there is no doubt that the church is aware that people do these things, and yet nothing is done about it. How about carring around the Fatima pilgrim statue and throwing flowers around it and at it and parading it down the street and kissing it… I know I know - you’ve never seen that either and I’m just making it up.

I am not trying to pass judgement on the intentions of all those who do these things. I am just telling you that idolatry is real, it happens, I’ve seen it, I’ve heard people tell me about their idolatry, and the church is naive if it thinks its encouraging the use of statues this way isn’t causing people to fall into the sin of idolatry.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

I hope you’re not talking about your mother.

thankfully not

If somebody thinks a statue is talking to them its not because they are Catholic its because they need professional psychiatric help. So don’t call them a Catholic, call them a doctor, I’m serious.

Should we call a doctor for St. Francis of Assisi too? Look what happened to him at the cross! How about St. Therese of Lisieux? Her statue of Mary smiled at her! I can go on and on with Catholic examples of mystical phenomenon with statues, crosses, etc… I believe this is why people believe there is power in them. Now whether or not God has used these things miraculously, one should not assume that He WILL use them this way. I won’t go any further about that b/c I have my own reservations about such miraculous claims… but the fact remains that they are an encouragement to people to use them and possibly abuse them.

People who think Catholics talk to statues because they think God has put His power in *the statue *are showing their ignorance, and they need help too.
Have you ever heard of moving statues? Possibly?
Have you ever heard of those physical, statues moving themselves to heal the sick? Possibly not.
Have you ever heard of any material substance, which does not have the power to move, move, and heal the sick?
I have heard of the last one.
Many people hung around this piece of material waiting for it to move, when it did move they went for it and the first to reach it was cured.
Strange, no?
Maybe you need psychiatric help too, because you believe in this last one, yes you do I say, you believe that God sent His power into a piece of inanimate material and made it move for the people present and it cured them of their illnesses when they touched it. Gosh!

No comment. I will let your words speak for themselves…

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

While there is nothing verbatim in the New Testament about the use of statues in churches, there is nothing forbidding their use either. After all, there is nothing verbatim in the NT about the Trinity, Incarnation, etc, but those are accepted by most Christians.

In fact, there are a lot of OT things not repeated in the NT - that does not make the lessons contained in them useless to Christians.

If you kneel in front of your bed while saying your prayers, are you worshiping the bed?

That is no comparison at all. Apples and oranges. I’ve heard this silly argument before…

Of course not. When I attended a Baptist church, I occasionally helped out with one of their youth groups that began its meetings by saying the pledge of allegiance in front of an American and a Christian flag while holding our hands over our hearts. Were we worshiping the flags? Of course not. It is true that some superstitious or poorly taught people may ‘worship’ statues, but that is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are many non-Catholics who seem to reverence their Bibles on a level bordering on idolatry, does that mean we should throw them out too?

No, b/c we are told to meditate on Gods Word night and day. Such a person should be corrected though. God ordained that His Word be written, by the inspiration of the H.S. But the statue is an empty piece of wood/clay and was NOT ordained by God. I do realize you believe it was since it was encouraged by the CC, but considering the contradiction between that and Scripture casts my doubts as to whether or not it was ordained by God and not by man.

As for healing qualities, that is entirely possible. We already have the example of the bronze serpent. God also used the bones of Elisha to bring a dead man back to life (1 Kings 13:20-21), and a woman was healed merely by touching the hem of Jesus robe. Other people were healed merely by touching cloths that had been handled by Paul (Acts 19:12). As VociMike said, we have an incarnational faith, so God can and does use ordinary items to work miracles.

He does. But we don’t erect our own bronze serpents by our own authority and assume He’ll do it again.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

If you really went to Catholic school for 8 years and never heard the entire 1st commandment and never had to do an examination of concience or had it explained to you, you missed a lot of school.

Are you suggesting that my claim is untrue? We RARELY opened a Bible. The workbook text for the 10 commandments were very basic and did not include anything about graven images. It was not until I read the Bible for myself that I found it.

Just because you choose to follow the Jewish numbering of the commandments does not make it right. They got many things wrong, like the Old Testament canon and the Messiah.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The Bible lists the commandments - all of them. I can read them for myself. My religion text as a child did not include this commandment.

 

[RNRobert]

In fact, there are a lot of OT things not repeated in the NT - that does not make the lessons contained in them useless to Christians.

You seem to want to have it both ways. On the one hand, you appeal the the Decalogue in the OT as a cut-and-dried argument against ANY graven images. But when I use the OT to show that God approved of images in certain circumstances, you basically say “well not everything in the OT is repeated in the NT.” So, which is it? If I cannot appeal to the OT to argue in favor of the use of images in NT times, than you cannot appeal to them to argue against banning them.
Also, please show me where in the New Testament any images are forbidden. Christianity is the fulfillment of the Jewish faith, so if religious art is allowed in the Old Testament, then it can certainly be allowed in the New.

 

[Thing]

I can go on and on with Catholic examples of mystical phenomenon with statues, crosses, [inanimate material], etc…

You believe also that God sent His power into a piece of inanimate material and made it move for the people present and it cured them of their illnesses when they touched it. Gosh! and Gosh again!

 

[savedsinner]

I don’t know what you mean about divide. These are the commandments. Period. I was never taught the one about graven images - as if it never existed.

Didn’t you ever read the bible?

The graven image commandment is tied to the one about not having any other God’s before the one true God.
It is telling us that we should not worship idols as if they were other gods.

God commanded his people to carve graven images in their worship of him, with the angles and such around the ark of the covenant and temple, and the serpent on the staff with Moses. But when The Israelites started to worship the serpent as a god, the serpent was destroyed.

Maybe you weren’t taught about the graven image commandment, because we don’t worship statues as being another god, or at least I hope we don’t.

 

[cfrancis]

I don’t know what you mean about divide. These are the commandments. Period. I was never taught the one about graven images - as if it never existed.

Here’s what I mean: in Ex 20, the first 17 verses contain the Commandments. Please tell me how many commandments there are, and how you divided the verses to come to that number.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

You seem to want to have it both ways. On the one hand, you appeal the the Decalogue in the OT as a cut-and-dried argument against ANY graven images

No, I specifically argued that it is the misuse of **SOME **graven images. I don’t know why you think I argued against them ALL. I doubt we’ll find people worshipping the carvings on the walls of the church. I’ll admit though that I still question even that use since it is not mandated by God whereas the temple decor in the OT was mandated by Him.

But when I use the OT to show that God approved of images** in certain circumstances**, you basically say “well not everything in the OT is repeated in the NT.”.

I said that b/c you seem to think the OT commandment which prohibits graven images (or at least the worship of them) is no longer applicable b/c it can’t be found in the NT. I agreed with you about the OT mandate by God to build images “in certain circumstances” the key there being NOT in circumstances of our own choosing.

So, which is it?

I made no contradiciton.

Also, please show me where in the New Testament any images are forbidden.

Please show me where it says they were prescribed. Does the prohibition have to be re-stated in the NT? Do we learn from the experiences of those in the OT or do we just throw all that away b/c we live in the New Covenant now?

Please tell me, do you think God contradictied Himself in the OT? Or did He make an exception to the commandment in certain circumstances?

Was it wrong for the bronze serpent to be destroyed?

By your argument the serpent should not have been destroyed just b/c some people fell into the sin of idolatry. Here we had a mandate by God to make the serpent. Then we have the Israelites starting to worship it b/c God had used it at one time. Then we have its destruction. Why? AFterall, GOD MANDATED ITS CONSTRUCTION! Instead of destroying the serpent, why not just re-catechize them as you seem to be suggesting?

Now campare this with our present situation. We have no direct mandate from God to make graven images (of course yo ubelieve you do b/c you trust the church when it says you can make them…), some people are falling into idolatry b/c of it, and you chalk it up to bad catechesis. The only way you can get around this is to deny that anyone falls into idolatry in the first place. Or to excuse it on the basis that, well, its too bad people didn’t understand their catechism. So, the church takes no responsibility at all for this.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

You believe also that God sent His power into a piece of inanimate material and made it move for the people present and it cured them of their illnesses when they touched it. Gosh! and Gosh again!

And when they worshipped that inanimate material - EVEN THOUGH GOD HAD JUST USED IT - it was destroyed. Please reflect on why.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

Didn’t you ever read the bible?

Nope. I never owned a Bible until after my confirmation. 8 years of Catholic school and we did not use Bibles at all. This was immediately proceeding VII - is it any wonder? I don’t think I was ever taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist either. I was SHOCKED to learn of this teaching from EWTN in my 20s.

God commanded his people to carve graven images in their worship of him, with the angles and such around the ark of the covenant and temple, and the serpent on the staff with Moses. But when The Israelites started to worship the serpent as a god, the serpent was destroyed.

Exactly. The construction of the serpent was mandated by God for a specific purpose. Once its usefulness was over the Israelites starting worshipping it. And then it was destroyed. You all keep saying it: “The serpent was destroyed” but you aren’t getting it. The construction of Catholic graven images is not mandated by God. It has no purpose except for the ones the CC says it has (as an aid to worship). There are some who are worshipping them. They are not being removed. THIS is the difference.

No lesson was learned from the situation here recorded for our benefit. There are many important lessons to be learned from the OT. They need not all be repeated in the NT to be useful to us.

 

[cfrancis]

No, I specifically argued that it is the misuse of **SOME **graven images. I don’t know why you think I argued against them ALL. I doubt we’ll find people worshipping the carvings on the walls of the church. I’ll admit though that I still question even that use since it is not mandated by God whereas the temple decor in the OT was mandated by Him.

Would you please present where God mandated the Temple to have both carvings and statues of things in heaven, on the earth and under the sea?

 

[tobias]

Are you suggesting that my claim is untrue? We RARELY opened a Bible. The workbook text for the 10 commandments were very basic and did not include anything about graven images. It was not until I read the Bible for myself that I found it. I have no idea what you are talking about. The Bible lists the commandments - all of them. I can read them for myself. My religion text as a child did not include this commandment.

My suggestion, had you read my whole post, or at least acknowledged it all was that your memory is ‘hazy’. There is a reason that repitition is used in any type of education, because things do fade from memory. And we don’t ‘open a Bible’ at a Catholic mass either, yet the majority of the mass is a vocalization of the Scriptures. I think you misunderstand Catholicism very well,

Let me explain. If you look at Exodus 20, without a division 1 way or the other, there are 11 initial commandments, if you read further there are over 300 commandments laid out for the Israelites such as ‘You shall not permit a sorceress to live.’ The Jews at the time of the Apostles divided the 10 commandment as 4 pertaining our relationship to God and 6 about our relationship to our fellow man. The Christian Church, from its very begining, did not regard women as chattle (property), so the natural division was 3 C’s toward God and 7 toward man. When the protestants came along they took the this Jewish numbering of commandments along with the 1st century AD jewish canon of scriptures for the same reason, the commandment numbering and dueterocanonical books were too Catholic/Christian. You are accepting 16th century tradition based on Jews tradition that denies Christ as the Messiah. Hope that helps.

Side note; was it neccessary for your religion teachers to warn you about your neighbors pagan statuary, or was it pertinent to warn you about your neighbors other gods they worshiped which definitionally included statuary. You be the judge.

 

[Thing]

And when they worshipped that inanimate material - EVEN THOUGH GOD HAD JUST USED IT - it was destroyed. Please reflect on why.

Wrong one.

God creates and designs images - therefore image making is OK by Him.

God creates and designs images and sends His power into them - thats OK too.

God takes something man-made, the pool*, and sends His power into it - thats OK.

So your problem is not graven images, you make them and God makes them.

Your problem is not with images designed by God with power from God working through them.

Your problem is not with man made images with power from God.

Your problem is not with kneeling.

Your problem is not with candles.

Your problem is not with prayer.

Your problem is with your own perception and judgement of other people.

You must name these idol-worshippers, and inform and give their names to their Bishop. That is the equivalent of what would probably happen in OT times.

But you must be certain those people are genuine idol-worshippers … its a tough one.

*This inanimate material.

2 Now there is at Jerusalem a pond, called Probatica, which in Hebrew is named Bethsaida, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick, of blind, of lame, of withered; waiting for the moving of the water. 4 And an angel of the Lord descended at certain times into the pond; and the water was moved. And he that went down first into the pond after the motion of the water, was made whole, of whatsoever infirmity he lay under. 5 And there was a certain man there, that had been eight and thirty years under his infirmity.

 

[as-a-child]

EVEN THOUGH GOD HAD JUST USED IT - it was destroyed. Please reflect on why.

Actually it was destroyed a couple hundred years after it was made.

Theres some time there between the exodus and the completion of solomons temple.

But then again abuse does not negate proper use.

 

[WatchfulPilgrim]

cfrancis:
Would you please present where God mandated the Temple to have both carvings and statues of things in heaven, on the earth and under the sea?

2 Chron 1:11 “And God said to Solomon…” I suppose it is a conclusion I drew based upon the fact that God had spoken to Solomon. But in all fairness, you are right - there is no actual passage that states God told him to do this. But like I said, I don’t think the danger is in the architechture itself - and I’ve repeated and will repeat again, that I am talking specifically about **misused **(worshipped) images. I’ve no doubt the oxen and cherubim would have been removed had people started worshipping them…

tobias: My suggestion, had you read my whole post, or at least acknowledged it all was that your memory is ‘hazy’.

I read it all and commented on it. You did not “suggest” you said you think my memory is hazy. Anyway, what I remember is still in practice today: I am looking at my son’s CCD book right now. There are 10 commandments listed and not a thing about graven images. I understand that you consider it a part of the 1st commandment, but the Bible doesn’t include this part about graven images for no reason - yet it is never included in a child’s religion text. My memory about the Bible as a youth is not hazy either. And what I remember about that IS ALSO still in practice (or non-practice) today. I have 4 children in CCD. They never open a Bible either. They only know how to read one b/c I have shown them how. I absolutely never had a Bible in school and did not own one of my own at home until I was 16. It just seems peculiar to me that we have all these other commandments listed almost exactly the same today as they are in the Bible with the exclusion of that one. It is not merely a continuance of the first since it also begins “thou shalt not”. Its not about the numbering at all.

You are accepting 16th century tradition based on Jews tradition that denies Christ as the Messiah. Hope that helps.

I can speak for myself thank you. I never said anything about what Bible I accept. I own many Bibles today. I have a Douay-Rhiems, an Ignatius and several others (Catholic) and only 1 “protestant” Bible - the KJV. I often use BibleGateway to look up passages and compare them.

**God creates and designs **images - therefore image making is OK by Him.
**God creates and designs *images and sends His power into them - thats OK too.
God takes something man-made, the pool, and sends His power into it - thats OK.
So your problem is not…
Your problem is not …
Your problem is not …
Your problem is not …
Your problem is with your own perception and judgement of other people.

I did not judge anyone. I question if the church should allow and encourage it based on what I do know about specific people I know and specific people I have observed.

In your post here you said “God created, God created, God used…” You did not give an example where WE create, and then WE start treating it *as if *God were using it. THAT is the problem. There is quite a big difference between God creating something and us creating something. There is also quite a difference between God using something for our benefit and us treating something as if God were present in it (or a saint)

You must name these idol-worshippers, and inform and give their names to their Bishop.

I don’t have to. He sees people in his church kissing statues and such. He just doesn’t see it as worship for some odd reason. I’ve already said that I am not judging the intentions of these people, I am concerned that their observable behaviour certainly looks like worship and it causes me to question the practice.

Actually it was destroyed a couple hundred years after it was made.

Surely. My mistake of words. But my point wasn’t about how long or short the time period was - my point was that God had even used it for their benefit. That almost seems like a good reason to burn incense before it, doesn’t it? After all, it was a sacred object - or at least, it was. Yet God was clearly angered by their treatment of it.

 

[cfrancis]

2 Chron 1:11 “And God said to Solomon…” I suppose it is a conclusion I drew based upon the fact that God had spoken to Solomon. But in all fairness, you are right - there is no actual passage that states God told him to do this. But like I said, I don’t think the danger is in the architechture itself - and I’ve repeated and will repeat again, that I am talking specifically about **misused **(worshipped) images. I’ve no doubt the oxen and cherubim would have been removed had people started worshipping them…

Thanks for the reply. Would you please answer the following re: division of Ex 20:
in Ex 20, the first 17 verses contain the Commandments. Please tell me how many commandments there are, and how you divided the verses to come to that number.

 

[RNRobert]

No, I specifically argued that it is the misuse of **SOME **graven images. I don’t know why you think I argued against them ALL. I doubt we’ll find people worshipping the carvings on the walls of the church.

Then why do you have such a problem with religious art?

Does the prohibition have to be re-stated in the NT? Do we learn from the experiences of those in the OT or do we just throw all that away b/c we live in the New Covenant now?

. As the Gipper would say, “There you go again,” wanting to have it both ways. If the prohibition does not have to spelled out in the NT, then neither does it’s prescription.

Please tell me, do you think God contradictied Himself in the OT? Or did He make an exception to the commandment in certain circumstances?

I asked that question, and answered it, in my opening post.

Was it wrong for the bronze serpent to be destroyed?

By your argument the serpent should not have been destroyed just b/c some people fell into the sin of idolatry. Here we had a mandate by God to make the serpent. Then we have the Israelites starting to worship it b/c God had used it at one time. Then we have its destruction. Why? AFterall, GOD MANDATED ITS CONSTRUCTION! Instead of destroying the serpent, why not just re-catechize them as you seem to be suggesting?

I might point out that the Israelites lived in a different time, where idolatry was more commonplace. let me ask you this. Since God is outside of time and knew the Israelites would end up worshipping the serpent, why did he order it’s manufacture in the first place?

some people are falling into idolatry b/c of it, and you chalk it up to bad catechesis. The only way you can get around this is to deny that anyone falls into idolatry in the first place. Or to excuse it on the basis that, well, its too bad people didn’t understand their catechism. So, the church takes no responsibility at all for this.

You’re contradicting yourself again. In the first pargraph I quoted from you, you said:

I doubt we’ll find people worshipping the carvings on the walls of the church.

but then you turn around and worry that some people might fall into idolatry.

 

[tobias]

I read it all and commented on it. You did not “suggest” you said you think my memory is hazy. Anyway, what I remember is still in practice today: I am looking at my son’s CCD book right now. There are 10 commandments listed and not a thing about graven images. I understand that you consider it a part of the 1st commandment, but the Bible doesn’t include this part about graven images for no reason - yet it is never included in a child’s religion text. My memory about the Bible as a youth is not hazy either. And what I remember about that IS ALSO still in practice (or non-practice) today. I have 4 children in CCD. They never open a Bible either. They only know how to read one b/c I have shown them how. I absolutely never had a Bible in school and did not own one of my own at home until I was 16. It just seems peculiar to me that we have all these other commandments listed almost exactly the same today as they are in the Bible with the exclusion of that one. It is not merely a continuance of the first since it also begins “thou shalt not”. Its not about the numbering at all.

To tell one what you think they may be experiencing is a suggestion. Anyway.

I can speak for myself thank you. I never said anything about what Bible I accept. I own many Bibles today. I have a Douay-Rhiems, an Ignatius and several others (Catholic) and only 1 “protestant” Bible - the KJV. I often use BibleGateway to look up passages and compare them. I did not judge anyone. I question if the church should allow and encourage it based on what I do know about specific people I know and specific people I have observed.

I’m sorry, but your just being completely dishonest. I said nothing about which translation you use. I’m aware of no translation that leave out part of the 10 commandments. But you keep avoiding the question of division and no they do not all start ‘thou shalt not…’ What about ‘Honor your mother and father…’ Remember the sabbath day…’ Your thou shalt not division leaves you with 8.

Take out your Bible, any translation, read the commandments, pray about it, and be honest with yourself. So far your posts have not been honest on the matter.

And you refuse to answer if you think women are chattle, because that’s the only way to come to the division you espouse. :banghead:

 

[Thing]

Only God and the individual alone can know the intentions of the individuals heart. I could claim you worship idols but I would be on uncertain ground, literally I am not God, so I don’t judge.

WatchfulPilgrim:

I did not judge anyone. I question if the church should allow and encourage it based on what I do know about specific people I know and specific people I have observed.

By that reasoning we should be afraid to live, or do anything, somebody may have missused a stick, a bible, a car, should we eliminate money, marriage what else… I observe people making a mess of things all the time.

The Church does not allow worship of idols. It never has and never will. Because. It is the very very first thing a Catholic learns - there is one God and you must love Him with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.
The Church can only tell the individual what is true. Whether it penetrates the ivory dome or not depends on the individuals temperament.

Yes, the Church should allow and encourage sacred art. That is how Christianity was taught, in fact its how Christianity made its way through time to you. Sacred art are the Scriptures in a visual form. If you disrespect one, how do you not disrespect the other, and if you respect the one you will respect the other, I would hope. Catholics for centuries have been sending missionary priests and monks to convert pagan idol-worshippers all over the world. They all prayed to Mary and the Saints, brought sacred art, statues and paintings, carried crucifixes, lit candles, burned incense, rung bells. And have converted entire countries like that.

That was and still is how Christianity was spread and taught.
You can thank the Catholic Church now for you being a Christian, if you are.