No Kneelers in some catholic churches?

[JackieMom]

I dont think YOU get it JakieMom…there is an intentional move within the Latin Rite (and some of the Eastern ) Catholic Churches to move farther and farther away from Traditional Catholic practice…kneeling at the appropriate times in church being one of them…nobody is saying the old and infirm need to be kneeling when this is not within their means… that said…kneeling is the TRADITION of the LATIN CHURCH during the Eucharistic prayer at Mass and at other times…by not installing kneelers someone is trying to make a point…dont kneel …even though the Church teaches otherwise…People in the Latin Rite should be kneeling! Why don’t people get it?

People do get it, but as someone pointed out above there was a period of time where Latin Rite priests truly believed that we were going to move toward a universal posture of standing at the consecration. Churches built during this time often lack kneelers because, to be frank, someone guessed wrong. They were surprised with the GIRM was updated and required kneeling. Many of these parishes still do not have kneelers because they are expenive or the current layout could not possibly accomodate them.

The bishops have given these churches, built in the late 80s and 90s, time to get back into compliance. In the meantime, reverent standing (not whistling and twiddling to whoever suggested that) and profound bowing works for now. The reason many parishes have not mandated kneeling on the floor is because most parishes (ours included) are made up of more than 50% senior citizens. Our priest (yes, I just asked) did not feel it was very Christian to institute a new rule that such a huge portion of parishioners could not obey. He said it would be divisive and be a cause of embarrassment for them, and look silly as half the parish did one thing and another half something else. Instead, we ALL stand reverently as a parish, bow deeply at the miracle of the consecration, and wait for the day that kneelers can be installed. Since Mass is a community worship situation, this is our community’s temporary solution to the issue. There is no conspiracy theory or subtle attempt to undermine the Mass. It was simply thought that more unity with the East was going to be the norm, and in the end it wasn’t.

Respect for the Lord is not dependent on whether someone is kneeling or standing, but on their focus and state of mind. Would I feel comfortable being that person who kneeled on the stone floor in a Mass where 1,000 others were standing? No. I do not wish to draw attention or come off as self-righteous. I might do it in private prayer, but not at Mass. Additionally, I obey my priest and follow our parish’s norms. If I felt kneeling was central to my Mass experience, or that for some reason I could not properly worship Jesus unless I could kneel, then I would simply go to another parish. As it is, I feel cofident that my love and respect for Jesus in the Eucharist is properly oriented whether I stand, sit, kneel, lay down, whatever.

 

[jcld]

At least it’s nice to know that you are just speaking for yourself ( and your parish Church at your place ). The facts your parish may be facing ARE certainly NOT true for the other parishes around the world.

Respect for the Lord is not dependent on whether someone is kneeling or standing, but on their focus and state of mind.

You meant… that it depends upon what’s inside your heart and your mind ( i.e. what’s inside your will ) at the moment of the worship… Nice try hehehe… BUT it is most certainly OK

Would I feel comfortable being that person who kneeled on the stone floor in a Mass where 1,000 others were standing?

I hope and pray that God will also feel comfortable for you as well… someday.

As it is, I feel cofident that my love and respect for Jesus in the Eucharist is properly oriented whether I stand, sit, kneel, lay down, whatever.

Continue working on it… I have a feeling that it will also improve, someday… True love grows…

 

[SMHW]

Here are links to a couple of discussions from a few years ago.
ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/STANKNEL.TXT
adoremus.org/96-02_Pokorsky.htm

I include them, not because I agree or disagree with the positions taken, but just to give evidence that in the mid-nineties (and prior to that time) there was considerable discussion regarding the “proper” posture for the faithful to take during the Eucharistic Prayer and/or the Consecration. If a parish was located in an area where standing during the Eucharistic Prayer was promoted as the superior position it would be reasonable to expect the designers of churches would be influenced by that idea.

I know that the case with my own parish (formed in 1988) the pastor enlisted the (name removed by moderator)ut from parishioners to come up with a functional design for the church (using Environment and Art in Catholic Worship as a guide.) Once that was done, then the parish solicited bids from architects. I don’t remember but I’m guessing the design of the church would have been finalized in 1991 or 1992. The church was dedicated in 1995 after maybe three years of construction, and like most new parishes was carrying construction debt that needed to be paid off. There were (for the most part) no kneelers or pews, only individual chairs that could be linked to other chairs. There were maybe 20 chairs that had kneelers fitted on to the back.

It wasn’t until the 2000’s that there was any discussion of installing kneelers. Our then pastor (our second pastor for that parish) was advised that the GIRM exception to kneeling, “unless prevented by the lack of space, the number of people, or some other good reason,” should be considered to apply to our parish. I seriously doubt that the majority of parishioners even know that there is such a thing as a G.I.R.M. instruction regarding kneeling. And many, if not most, of those who do know would take the word of a cleric who told them the lack of kneelers was a sufficient reason to stand.

It seems odd to me to expect that parishioners (even those who DO know what the GIRM says and frequent internet fora such as this) should take the word of strangers rather than their pastors and bishops, (even if the strangers on the internet turn out to be correct.)

 

[QuestingKnight]

Fascinating, really, that people can debate whether one should kneel during a mystical rite.

My opinion is that Catholicism has become way too literary and personalised. It’s what I see in protestantism: One reads a few books, forms some interesting opinions, develops a personal relationship with Jesus, therefore the ritual trappings don’t matter. ‘God knows I’m good, he sees into my heart, what else do I need?’

Result: churches gradually emptying of icons, statues, vestments, ritual, language and eventually, people.

It’s not new, people, except to Catholics. That’s the horror of it. It’s all be done before.

What’s the first cardinal sin, again?

 

[jcld]

It seems odd to me to expect that parishioners (even those who DO know what the GIRM says and frequent internet fora such as this) should take the word of strangers rather than their pastors and bishops, (even if the strangers on the internet turn out to be correct.)

Sorry. This is the opinion of the priests at my parish as well… “That one should kneel during consecration… with or without kneelers”…

 

[jcld]

Fascinating, really, that people can debate whether one should kneel during a mystical rite.

My opinion is that Catholicism has become way too literary and personalised. It’s what I see in protestantism: One reads a few books, forms some interesting opinions, develops a personal relationship with Jesus, therefore the ritual trappings don’t matter. ‘God knows I’m good, he sees into my heart, what else do I need?’

Result: churches gradually emptying of icons, statues, vestments, ritual, language and eventually, people.

It’s not new, people, except to Catholics. That’s the horror of it. It’s all be done before.

What’s the first cardinal sin, again?

Hope you’re not jumping to “judging someone” immediately… Are you talking about “Pride”? hehehehe

Sorry. My opinion is not about pride… it’s simply this: “I see someone not respecting the One I love, that is why I need to speak out/lash out”… Not kneeling because there are no kneelers is “a lame excuse for me” (at least)… Sorry about this…

But since someone said it depends upon what is actually (within one’s heart) during the worship… That already wins my trust !

Stop judging immediately mister.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Why was there an expectation that kneeling would go away? From where did this come?

 

[JackieMom]

Why was there an expectation that kneeling would go away? From where did this come?

I don’t know, but at the time our parish was built the pastor believed that between the two choices, standing was going to become the norm. He believed this in good faith. It had something to do with celebrating the joy of the consecration rather than kneeling in submission. We follow what our pastor tells us to do. Right now, we stand. If kneelers are installed, we’ll kneel. If he asked us to try to kneel on the ground, we’d do that too.

I am not arguing that standing is better than kneeling, only that it is not in and of itself disrespectful.

 

[UncleBill]

I don’t know, but at the time our parish was built the pastor believed that between the two choices, standing was going to become the norm. He believed this in good faith. It had something to do with celebrating the joy of the consecration rather than kneeling in submission. We follow what our pastor tells us to do. Right now, we stand. If kneelers are installed, we’ll kneel. If he asked us to try to kneel on the ground, we’d do that too.

I am not arguing that standing is better than kneeling, only that it is not in and of itself disrespectful.

Sorry tradition and the Holy See trump your pastor…standing is disrespectful in the Latin church! Your pastor was making a political statement by not installing kneelers.

 

[JackieMom]

Sorry tradition and the Holy See trump your pastor…standing is disrespectful in the Latin church! Your pastor was making a political statement by not installing kneelers.

That may be, but he’s long gone and the last two pastors since him have followed suit. Probably not likely we’ve had three rogue, statement-making pastors in a row. I’m not sure how standing can be respectful in the East and disrespectful in the West. It’s the same consecration. Like I said, I’m not saying one way is superior, but that’s where our parish has stood for about 20 years. It is what it is.

 

[MSSheBear]

In the Latin rite, we are suppose to kneel. (Correct me if I am wrong.) With the Eastern Catholics standing is a sign of reverence, right? What our priests have been doing is picking and choosing from the various rites for convenience or whatever. I suspect some of the posters here suspect, like I do, that in some cases standing instead of kneeling is because of a lack of reverence. I have almost zero knowledge of Eastern Catholicism in case it isn’t obvious.

 

[UncleBill]

That may be, but he’s long gone and the last two pastors since him have followed suit. Probably not likely we’ve had three rogue, statement-making pastors in a row. I’m not sure how standing can be respectful in the East and disrespectful in the West. It’s the same consecration. Like I said, I’m not saying one way is superior, but that’s where our parish has stood for about 20 years. It is what it is.

If the the pastors are from the same generation they are probably of the same mind set.

In the East standing had always been a sign of respect in the West kneeling had…Rome had Todd USAF over and over we are to respect our own traditions…not to borrow from other churches…Latin Catholics should kneel. By not kneeling they are being disrespectful.

 

[natashapa]

I don’t want to get into any debate about this…it’s just that for me, I always believed it was a requirement to kneel. I am hearing that is the case, and I am very glad. Mass would not feel like a proper Mass if I didn’t kneel. I have been in RC churches where there were no kneelers, and I always felt acutely uncomfortable because nobody else was kneeling…so I didn’t, but I never want to go regularly to a church that doesn’t have them.

I love the ritual of High Mass, and I loved pre-Vatican II Mass, I will confess…now that there are parishes that are doing Latin Masses again, I’m hoping that my parish will eventually offer a Latin Mass. My mother’s parish started doing so about a year ago.

 

[jcld]

Why does some say “DEBATE” ?

This is in fact not a debate… It is SIMPLY about ensuring that we know (deep in our hearts and in our minds, i.e. deep in our wills) that we are showing the respect that is due to the King of Kings, the King of our Lives and of our Souls

We love each other… that is why we tell each other “truths”… we are actually helping each other here Please don’t take it like debate or grudges or nurturing of hatred…

 

[jcld]

I do not wish to pass judgment upon anyone…

These words are now for abled-elderly/abled Latin Rite Catholics… Let’s be pragmatic!

QUESTIONS ( all public actions ) :

1. You can kiss your sexy sweetheart in public to show that you love/respect him ?
2. You can kiss your parents/relatives/family/children/etc in public to show that you love/respect them ?
3. When meeting a high ranking government official/ the queen of England/ prince Charles/ prince William/ the sexiest Duchess of Windsor etc , you show respect to them by dressing up luxurious clothes or giving them a charming smile or showing nice actions of kindness ?
4. When meeting with close friends for a special dinner night-out, you dress your best and show them all the kindness deserved by close friends ?

My personal belief is this… If I/you can answer a YES to any of these questions (above)…
THEN YOU HAVE NO RIGHT NOT TO KNEEL DURING THE CONSECRATION ! PERIOD !

As these are all public actions, you must also make your love for God public (irregardless of what “those who see what you’re doing” think) !

RULE:
One goes to church to show to God you worship/love Him…
One DOES NOT go to church to show to fellow parishioners you worship/love God…

(even if they may look at what you’re doing: IT’S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS)…

 

[SMHW]

Why was there an expectation that kneeling would go away? From where did this come?

note to the reader: I can have a slightly caustic sense of humor. I often use quotes to indicate sarcasm, exaggeration, metaphors, and irony. If you think those literary devices are disrespectful when used to describe the Church and her representatives then perhaps you should not read my posts.

I don’t know specifically where the idea came from but I can speculate.

The idea that standing was better than kneeling is apparently an out of context idea borrowed from Eastern Catholicism. My guess is that this preference for standing became common in some parishes/dioceses/seminaries in the 1970s when so many liturgical practices were being “test-driven”. Some of the experimentation was done with permission in certain places; some was done without permission. The article I quoted earlier from Adoremus seems to agree with what I suspected: That standing was the practice in some seminaries.

My guess is that belief that standing for the Eucharistic Prayer would become formally permitted and/or preferred came about by what I would call the circular rumor mill. Some one asks about why we are standing and someone else speculates it’s because it will become law and before long a huge group of people thinks that change is coming. The snowballing rumor circles back to those few who started it and “confirms” their hypothesis about standing becoming law. This "news’ is enthusiastically embraced by the teachers/priests/bishops/liturgists who (for whatever reason) like the idea of the people standing. When people who favor a certain idea begin to spend most of their time associating with others who favor that same idea they sometimes envision that the whole world (except for a few “ignorant” persons) wants what they want.

I’ve observed that kind of “circular rumoring” in secular institutions.

I can only relate my experience in college in the years 1978 through 1980. The two parishes in the the city where my university was located both asked the people to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer. This was supposed to be by the direction of the local bishop. I do not know if that policy reflected what took place in any of the other dioceses of that province but it would not surprise me if that was the case. Within ten years of my graduation, standing during the Eucharistic Prayer was beginning to be practiced at parishes of the archdiocese of my home province.

This irony is not lost on me… In this post I am engaging in the same kind of speculation that I believe might be responsible for starting the circular rumors about standing.

 

[SMHW]

My guess is that belief that standing for the Eucharistic Prayer would become formally permitted and/or preferred came about by what I would call the circular rumor mill.

I guess what I am saying is that people sometimes create their own reality based on what they wish to be true. And they manage to bring into that reality many additional people who have no great feelings of attachment to any other reality,

 

[ajecphotos]

Stand or kneel. I am sure Jesus will be pleased whatever you do as being at mass and there for the celebrations is the most important aspect of it.

Don’t get hung up on wether or not one should kneel or not. Do whatever you feel is right and concentrate on the mass.

 

[onmyknees]

Well, let me see…

I walk into a room, and then there He is… God almighty!

Should I just stand?

Wave my hand and say “hi!”?

Do the chicken dance?

Nope, kneelers or no kneelers I still fall on my knees, sorry my friend I am just a sinner and He is God.

A Judge is just a man, God is God.

EDIT: Plus, the mass is a sacrifice. There is no way a catholic can deny that without denying catholic faith itself.

Like! Oh I mean Yes!!!

My church has kneelers Yea!! I remember when all the new churches were being built. I’m sorry but I think they are hideous! The beauty of the traditional Catholic churches is just not there. So sad!
I think the progressives wanted to be more like Protestants! No need for falling to our knees in honor of Him! Folk bands from the 70’s, music lyrics on huge screens, ugly wooden statues that you can’t tell who it is! I could go on and on.

I cannot go to those churches. When I go into a beautiful Catholic church my heart and mind are raised to Him. I want to kneel and be reverent to Jesus Christ. And yes, at the holy sacrifice of the mass we are entering into Calvary! We are really there with the Lamb of God at His passion, death, and resurrection! And all the angels and saints come down from heaven and accompany us.

 

[QuestingKnight]

…

But since someone said it depends upon what is actually (within one’s heart) during the worship…

… Stop judging immediately mister. …

It doesn’t. This is a public rite, directed towards God, not private prayer. One could sit throught the whole thing, but we don’t. Why? Because after thousands of years we developed an efficient and meaningful way to worship God in public.

There has been a big move away from penitence to celebration. The already-saved can celebrate. Sinners need penitence. The emphasis needs to be moved back. We should kneel.

I certainly can judge. I judge people by what they do and its effects. Christ didn’t say “don’t judge”, otherwise a Catholic judge couldn’t judge anyone. He said “Judge not lest ye be judged”. It’s a warning against hyprocrisy. We judge by the fruits.

One can now attend masses which would have scandalised our forefathers. Personally, I think the 60’s kids have had their day in the sun and it hasn’t worked, at all, purely on the figures. Time to revert to tradition.