No Kneelers

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Well, right now I am very sad. :sad_bye: I just had a telephone conversation with a Priest from the Office of Divine Worship for my Archdiocese.

I explained to him my concerns about the church with no kneelers and parishioners standing during the Consecration.

Father told me that there are a number of such churches in our area and until such time as those churches do a renovation there is little to be done about the situation. He said that at the time this particular church was built other churches were also built without kneelers because of a misunderstanding about what VII had really said. Where have we all heard that. :knight2:

I had written a letter to the Pastor of the church in my OP but he has not responded. Father suggested I make another effort to reach the Pastor and tell him that I am concerned enough that I will contact the Archbishop, which I will do in both instances.

Now, all we can do is pray, but I am really sad.:gopray2:

:imsorry:
 
mullenpm said:
Well, right now I am very sad. :sad_bye: I just had a telephone conversation with a Priest from the Office of Divine Worship for my Archdiocese.

I explained to him my concerns about the church with no kneelers and parishioners standing during the Consecration.

Father told me that there are a number of such churches in our area and until such time as those churches do a renovation there is little to be done about the situation. He said that at the time this particular church was built other churches were also built without kneelers because of a misunderstanding about what VII had really said. Where have we all heard that. :knight2:

I had written a letter to the Pastor of the church in my OP but he has not responded. Father suggested I make another effort to reach the Pastor and tell him that I am concerned enough that I will contact the Archbishop, which I will do in both instances.

Now, all we can do is pray, but I am really sad.:gopray2:

:imsorry:
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I understand your sadness. But, rejoice that changes will be coming. I am confident. Our Lord deserves praise and the humility brought with kneeling. Thanks to the SSPX for their diligence in these areas.
 
PureHeart said:
How do you know that? Can u quote something?🤷
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I can’t quote anyone, or anything directly at this time, although I am sure there are documents of the Catholic Church stating the power of personal sacrifice, pain, physically and emotionally. When I was a child and teenager in Catholic schools, we were given the full dose of pain before pleasure by the Notre Dame sisters. We were taught that each discomfort we experience should be offered up in reparation for our sins, the sins of others, the souls in purgatory, the conversion of Russia, for our men and women on the battlefields, for the neighbor who gave us a dirty look, for many, many things.

We were taught we live in a world of self sacrifice, in caring for others before ourselves. Can you imagine living in such a world with such people? If, by a miracle, we were to do so, the issues we face today wouldn’t exist.
 
mullenpm said:
Well, right now I am very sad. :sad_bye: I just had a telephone conversation with a Priest from the Office of Divine Worship for my Archdiocese.

I explained to him my concerns about the church with no kneelers and parishioners standing during the Consecration.

Father told me that there are a number of such churches in our area and until such time as those churches do a renovation there is little to be done about the situation. He said that at the time this particular church was built other churches were also built without kneelers because of a misunderstanding about what VII had really said. Where have we all heard that. :knight2:

I had written a letter to the Pastor of the church in my OP but he has not responded. Father suggested I make another effort to reach the Pastor and tell him that I am concerned enough that I will contact the Archbishop, which I will do in both instances.

Now, all we can do is pray, but I am really sad.:gopray2:

:imsorry:
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Good for you!! Your Priest with the Office of Divine Worship would make a wonderful spiritual advisor from the sound of his words to you. I think that you are totally on the right track and have planted many seeds in the minds of Priests you spoke with. Continue to have much confidence in the way you are proceeding. You may be attacked as this is not something the enemy wants to happen. Be vigilant and watchful Mullenpm.

All who are working for bringing back the reverence and awe into the Holy Mass, the least that our Lord deserves, will be richly rewarded in heaven.

God be with you, c.
 
CMP2 said:
Good for you!! Your Priest with the Office of Divine Worship would make a wonderful spiritual advisor from the sound of his words to you. I think that you are totally on the right track and have planted many seeds in the minds of Priests you spoke with. Continue to have much confidence in the way you are proceeding. You may be attacked as this is not something the enemy wants to happen. Be vigilant and watchful Mullenpm.

All who are working for bringing back the reverence and awe into the Holy Mass, the least that our Lord deserves, will be richly rewarded in heaven.

God be with you, c.
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I agree fully. Thank you for your persistence.
 
mullenpm said:
I explained to him my concerns about the church with no kneelers and parishioners standing during the Consecration.

Father told me that there are a number of such churches in our area and until such time as those churches do a renovation there is little to be done about the situation. He said that at the time this particular church was built other churches were also built without kneelers because of a misunderstanding about what VII had really said.
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What document of Vatican II gave so many the impression that kneelers were to be eliminated?

I wonder if anyone can quote the troubling text?

Thanks
 
I do not believe there was any one document that said that kneelers should be removed. After V2, there was a great mis-interpretation of what the Council said and many changes were made in the Church that many now believe should not have been made.😦

:highprayer:
 
Hesychios said:
What document of Vatican II gave so many the impression that kneelers were to be eliminated?

I wonder if anyone can quote the troubling text?

Thanks
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Well, I don’t think there is just one document. During Vatican II, the Holy Spirit impressed on the participants the need for unity of Jesus’ Church. A lot of talk developed out of this, including the Second Ecumenical Council.

This council discussed the need for unifying the chuch…and steps and methodologyy to go about doing this. Unification would join the Western Catholic Church with the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches and bring back into the fold those protestant religions which had branched off.

I think, some priests and bishops thought that in order to get protestants back into the fold, they had to make the Catholic church “look” more protestant. (I’m not sure, but I think this is what was happening.) So they got rid of many things in the church that were distinctly Catholic…kneelers being one of those things. Our holy art and statues of saints were other things that went…etc. Get the drift? Here is one document that you might read that will give you a “feelng” of the time.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1979/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_19790117_en.html

Ideally…they were trying to unify the church…but in the process, the pious Catholic population got so upset that many started not attending services…and, well as you know here we are. Now, many of us are coming back and complaining that those things which we loved were taken away from us…and we don’t like it, and many of us think it is offensive to God. One such group are the SSPX. There are other groups too…that have acted without disobeying our Pope.

In the meantime, we are no closer to being united. The protestants are still protestants. Our Holy Father is working hard to unify the Catholics now…because we are fighting within our Church…about rituals of all things.

We all need to take a step back and PRAY. PRAYER was the original message of Vatican II. That is what apparently has not been done enough. It appears men have been trying too hard to think of their own ways to solve the problem of unifying, instead of praying and waiting on the Lord. Now we are in a big mess.

Let’s unite in saying rosaries to our Lady for she will help us too. Its time to pray and stop arguing.

If you want to look at the Vatican II documents, you can. They are on the Holy See website. Go to the Holy See and search for Vatican II Documents. They will come up. So will Ecumenical Council documents.

Hope this helps.
 
The church that I currently attend does not have kneelers and the inside of it looks more like a parish community center than an actual church. We also have plain stackable chairs rather than pews. This is because we are in the process of building a new church. Since we do not have kneelers, we remain standing through the Eucharistic Prayer, however we do sit down after receiving the Eucharist. Our parish was founded about 10 years ago and began meeting in the auditorium of a local school for Sunday Mass. We’ve had our current “church” now for several years and have a raised enough money to begin work on our new church. We should break ground before then end of the year. I don’t know what the situation was at the OP attended, but it may have been a similar situation.
 
Hammer05, no, the situation is completely different.

The church I visited was established as a Mission Church in the 1800’s and in the 1970’s, I believe, the present “multi-purpose” church was built.

The Priest I spoke with in the Archdiocese said that all new construction of churches in our Archdiocese must have kneelers and the churches already existing without kneelers must add them at the time of any renovation.

I am hoping for a very strong wind.

:highprayer:
 
Our church is like Hammer’s. It was built in the mid 80’s and uses stackable chairs instead of pews. This, I’m assuming, was due to the size and the neccessity to use the sanctuary as meeting spaces. For years, PSR and different meetings were held in the sanctuary (I believe the blessed sacrament was removed during these times). Due to this, we stand during the Eucharistic Prayers.

We are currently having a capital campaign to build a new church and that church (according to diocesian guidelines) will have kneelers. I’m happy with that.
 
There are no kneelers in my parish either. Don’t know why, it was like that when I moved here 8 months ago. However almost everyone kneels on the floor at the appropriate time, although a few people continue to sit. It’s a little bit awkward at first, but you offer that small sacrifice up for the suffering souls in purgatory I guess. The floor is carpeted, so it’s not too uncomfortable, just a little difficult to rise to ones feet afterwards, especially with a little back pain or arthritis.
 
The presence or absence of kneelers has nothing to do with Vatican II.
I’ve been to Mass in Rome and other cities in Italy, Switzerland, and France.
There were no kneelers in any of the churches.
Many churches in Canada have no kneelers.
When I served in the Army we had no kneelers when deployed.
I strongly suspect that the Masses in which I participated where there were no kneelers were all valid.
I do not think that God cares whether or not there are kneelers.
Did the Apostles use kneelers?
At the Last Supper were not the Apostles seated?

Al Maloney
 
I have to agree. I, too, have found a few people here quick to condemn comments to people who want the traditional Roman Catholic church to remain traditional. I had hoped this group would be more supportive. Some people result to near name-calling and insults to make themselves appear more knowledgeable.

A church in our tri-parish removed kneelers. At first, they said they “forgot to replace them” when they remodeled the church. However, it was done a few years ago, and they decided they liked the space in the pews more.

Coming from a Protestant background, I have found a traditional priest and stick with him. I feel he teaches the TRUE TEACHINGS of the church. I know he is bothered by the removed pews, but some of the people in that parish still kneel.

I, too, have gone for special talks to other Catholic churches, and find many to be very Protestant looking, and Protestant traditions. I will attend for a meeting or special talk, but not for a Mass. I admit to “making this all about me”, but I feel cheated going to a Mass at some of these locations. I know the Mass is sacred, and I feel hiding the tabernacle behind an American flag, or feeling Christ is hidden in the Mass makes it nearly meaningless. I can go to a Protestant church for that.

Heidi
 
Heidi

To which tradition are you referring in the case of kneelers?
Are the traditions of France, Switzerland, Italy, and other countries where there are no kneelers invalid?
I think God transcends arguments such as those about the presence or absence of kneelers.
Kneelers are accidentals, not the essence, in the Mass and in my relationship with God.

Al Maloney
 
In the Latin rite nowadays, most of the people who don’t kneel, don’t know any better. But for the ones who knew better and who promoted this change in praxis, the refusal to kneel was fundamentally an act of pride. It was reminiscent of the Devil himself, the author of pride, who irreovcably said, “Non serviam”, I will not serve, to God, and who for that reason has traditionally been depicted in sacred art as having no knees. No knees, no possibility of kneeling.

Remember Our Lord’s calls in the Gospel for “littleness” and for us adults to approach God like little children, while considering these words of the 20th-century British writer Caryll Houselander:

“Christ’s insistence on the power of children is very striking. Almost more than anything else in the Gospel it proves that in God’s eyes being something comes before doing something. He sets a little child among his apostles as an example of what he loves. He says that heaven is full of children. Indeed, the Architect of Love has built the door into heaven so low that no one but a small child can pass through it, unless, to get down to a child’s little height, he goes in on his knees.”

People who have this littleness in their hearts should not be abused by the proud for wanting to express it in their bodily posture at Mass.
 
Clevelander

I am confused about your reference to the Latin Rite.

The churches that I refer to, and have attended Mass in, are all Roman Catholic Churches in the Latin Rite.

Where I attended Mass and sang at St Peter’s in the Vatican there were no kneelers.

Al Maloney
 
mullenpm said:
bphasilphx, you are Orthodox so possibly not kneeling during the most sacred part of the Roman Catholic Mass is not disturbing; but believe me, it is.
Now, let us get back to the crux of the matter - no kneelers.

All that being said.

Why would some posters not find it sad that during the Consecration they could not view the Host and say “My Lord and My God”? The ringing of the bell would have been the only way to know when the Host was elevated since kneeling on the floor it was not possible to see beyond the people standing.

She was called a ‘heretic’ because she objected to all the changes and she was happy with that label. :rolleyes:

I am going to write a letter to the Pastor and give him my impression and ask him why his “Roman Catholic Church” is so protestant-like even in these days when our Holy Father is trying to restore the traditions.

:knight1::amen:
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To be honest, not kneeling during the consecration isn’t abnormal. In the Roman Catholic Church, one is allowed to stand during the consecration if there are no kneelers. Standing is reverant also. The important thing is that you do what you feel the Holy Spirit is leading you to do. If you feel that the Holy Spirit is telling you to kneel even though there are no kneelers (which shouldn’t keep people from kneeling if they want) then kneel. If the Holy Spirit is telling you to stand, then stand! Because both are allowed, both are acceptable in the right context.

I’ve heard many people get huffy about not being able to see what is going on at the consecration. I agree with you that that is the reason for the bells. In the Middle Ages, when there were no speakers and amplifiers, and the cathedrals were long, people couldn’t see what was happening, and so the bells allowed for people to know what was happening and therefore what to do. As Catholics, we don’t have or need to see what’s happening up at the alter (it’s not a show or entertainment). So, I do agree that they should have had the bells.

Mother Angelica isn’t a heretic, and I agree that name calling gets thrown around a lot. There are some things that she says and does that I don’t agree with, but heretic is a serious acusation.

YES! Write the letter! He is a shephard, and even shephards need to be reminded! Please, though, do it in a reverant way. St. Francis said “were I to meet in the street an Angel and a Priest, I would first bow my knee in reverence to the Priest, and afterwards in reverence to the Angel.” A Priest is a Holy Man, no matter how holy he actually is. So, while the priest might be wrong in some of the things that he does, address him with the same reverance you would an angel, if not more so!

Finally, because I know that it is a long post, thank you for starting this thread!
 
Hello Al. We are talking about different things. You are talking about kneelers; I am talking about kneeling. One can kneel without kneelers. I usually have to do it when I go to Mass on a college campus, for example. Our grandparents did it when they visited St. Peter’s Basilica.

The absence of kneelers in a post-concilliar “worship space” is usually a statement on the part of the pastor and the architect, and the statement is: Kneeling is discouraged here.
 
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