No Kneelers

[mdgspencer]

According to Church law in effect in the United States, the people are to kneel during the eucharistic prayer (unless it is an Eastern rite parish). As this thread shows, in most Catholic churches where the kneelers have been removed, the people do not kneel during the eucharistic prayer. The offense comes not from having no kneelers but from discouraging people from kneeling their removal means, a discouragement that from these posts means that they do not kneel.
Whether having no kneelers in itself is a violation of Church law I don’t know.
Of course, the mass is a valid mass if there are no kneelers and no kneeling. But still people, even priests, should not make their own law. Those who obey the civil law, on the one hand, but feel free to violate Church law, on the other, do it, it seems, simply because they can do it with impunity.

The presence or absence of kneelers has nothing to do with Vatican II.
I’ve been to Mass in Rome and other cities in Italy, Switzerland, and France.
There were no kneelers in any of the churches.
Many churches in Canada have no kneelers.
When I served in the Army we had no kneelers when deployed.
I strongly suspect that the Masses in which I participated where there were no kneelers were all valid.
I do not think that God cares whether or not there are kneelers.
Did the Apostles use kneelers?
At the Last Supper were not the Apostles seated?

Al Maloney

 

[mullenpm]

amaloney, it is not right to compare the Catholic churches in Rome or anywhere else in Europe to our tradition here in the United States. And certainly what happens on foreign soil in time of war is not relevant at all.

Before Vatican II we had kneelers in all our churches (Latin Rite) and we knelt at the Consecration. To say that we did not is not true.

After Vatican II, in an attempt to appeal more to Protestants some churches removed the altar rail; kneelers were not put in new churches that were built or modernized; the Tabernacle was moved from its rightful place in the center of the altar to some side spot where it goes unnoticed; women stopped covering their heads when they entered a church, etc., etc., etc.:sad_yes:

I am not against what took place at Vatican II, all I am saying is that some pastors and lay people went hog wild with changes and now we are beginning to see the error of those happenings.

The GIRM says that we must kneel from the Santus to the Lord’s Prayer. (Chapter II, n. 43, para. 3). No pastor can change that.:knight2:

Fortunately, I now know that the few churches in my Archdiocese where there are no kneelers are “under the radar” as the Priest in the Archdiocesean Office told me. And he said at renovation, kneelers must be installed.

Unfortunately, if the Pastor is adament in his own beliefs, no renovation will take place and another generation of Catholics will grow up not showing reverence to the true presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.:knight1:

 

[mom4many]

When I said “tradition”, it has been tradition to kneel in the Catholic Church–not forced to kneel. It is a sign of reverence, but I can see others using other signs to show reverence. But I also agree that to remove the kneelers suggests that kneeling is “not valid”, “not welcome”, “not encouraged”, whatever.

I agree…the kneelers DON’T make the Mass. But to remove them to make us more readily accepted by the Protestants is like changing your last name when your brother defiles it. You are still your brother’s brother…and we are still Catholic. There is no reason to hide that fact. I am not ashamed. I still cross myself when I have the meal blessing…whether or not I am in a restaurant, with friends and/or family who are not Catholic, or in my own home. That, to me, is a Catholic “TRADITION”. If I am invited to a Protestant wedding or church service, I don’t kneel there, I don’t take Communion there. But I EXPECT to be able to kneel in my own church. So if Protestants come to a Catholic Church, should we discontinue kneeling just to make them more comfortable? Do you take down your crucifix if you have Jews coming over to your home?

And, regarding the bells: we recently had this discussion at a local Catholic Bible Study. I am located between two tri-parishes. The priest at the one we mainly go to still uses the bells, but the other tri-parish priest doesn’t at all–ever. So why do some not have that anymore? I teach my youngest to “count (silently) the number of bells”. I think it also is nice to separate portions of the Mass.

So, due to the current priest, the local parish without kneelers still has bells. But when this priest is moved, and we possibly get somebody more liberal, if you are kneeling and waiting for the bells because you cannot see to know where we are in the Mass…you may be sadly disappointed!

Heidi

 

[the_phoenix]

A good Catholic parish in downtown Cleveland had a fundraiser specifically to replace the old, worn-out kneelers awhile back. Today there are brand new kneelers. As well as the Communion rail up front. The Mass is in Latin.

Best thing we can do is vote with our knees.

~~ the phoenix

 

[chain]

My home Parrish has a lovely church, but economics and attendance have caused us to only use it for Sunday (and Holy Day’s) services. It simply cost too much to heat and cool for the few who attend daily service and adoration. As a cost saving measure, we use a converted classroom for smaller masses, with assorted chairs. All I can say is you really miss kneelers during adoration - all that are able still kneel.

I recently attended a conference that had mass and adoration in a coliseum. Cement floors, tight spacing - still I bet most of the 5k in attendance attempted to kneel. I think the best seller at the book store were the $3 foam garden kneeling pads.

 

[RazzsMom]

First of all, let me say this is a very interesting thread to read and the many comments are very educational. Thank you.

My local Parish Church (Latin rite) was built about 165 years ago. We still have photos that show what the Church interior and exterior looked like in its original state. There were some additions to the building and various modernizing done that were welcomed (Heat! AC! Indoor restrooms!)

But in the 1960’s, around the time of Vatican II, the pastor and parishioners of the time were anxious to “modernize” the Church. The statues were taken out, the Gothic architecture of the interior was plastered over and covered. The beautiful altar was replaced by a very “modernistic” wooden one. The Tabernacle was moved and the walls were painted bland beige. The kneelers were removed. The Crucifix was considered to be too “Gothic and bloody” and was replaced with a “Risen Christ” crucifix. Yes - very “Protestant” looking to my eye, coming as a convert from a mostly Baptist background. (I was 30 years old at my conversion.)

Then in the time of Pope JP II, thank God we had a Pastor who, along with a core group of dedicated parishioners, saw the wisdom of returning to our roots and some traditionalism. A capital campaign was begun, parishioners made a two-year committment of monthly monetary donations, and an architect drew up plans…etc. This was all thoroughly researched first - what did the parishioners think and want, could the Church undertake this huge project willingly and with a majority of support?

After two years of construction, our beautiful newly renovated Church was unveiled in time for Pentecost Sunday in the Church building’s 150th year. While not quite as ornate as the original interior, it is beautifully “traditional [Roman] Catholic” and true to its Gothic constructed heritage. The woodwork in the sanctuary as well as the entrance to the Church is restored. The plastered-over wood artistry was uncovered and restored. The walls were repainted a warmer golden beige and very tastefully trimmed by an artist with hand-painted vines and grapes in muted purples and greens. The Gothic ceilings were repainted to accent the Keys of Peter on the ceiling and the sweeping arch of the ceilng is enhanced with trimmed paintwork.

The pews are handcarved and were placed in a slightly arched way as well, and included spaces on both sides to accomodate wheelchairs without their being in the aisles. We have kneelers once again. (Padded as well!) The statues of Mary and Joseph were repaired and repainted and placed back into the Church with small prie dieu to kneel upon to offer prayers to St. Mary and St. Joseph. As was a beautiful carved ivory Last Supper which now adorns the wall behind the altar. Traditional wooden Stations were placed along the side walls. We have a huge pipe organ which also was refurbished and tuned/repaired. The altar was replaced with a rectangular, carved wood (very light color ash? I am not sure of the wood, but it is very blond in color) that reflects the Gothic carving of the Church.

The Presidential Chair for Father was replaced with a carved wood one that was made to match the other carvings and was upholstered and matching chairs for the servers, etc., were placed on the altar. The horrible green wall-to-wall carpet was replaced with a muted deep purple carpeting which was placed only on the center of the floor space, leaving the exposed wooden floors at the walls. The altar floor has hand-cut and decorated wooden tiles which form a pattern of vines and grapes encircling the altar, designating the sacred area of sacrifice.

The Tabernacle was returned to the right side of the front of Church with its Eternal Light. Added to the Altar, on the back wall, were statues of St. Anthony and St Mary Seton as well as some moveable angel statues that we can place as we want for various Holy Days. The Crucifix is again of Christ Crucified - although it is a newer Crucifix - the old one is now in our Chapel in the building that houses various offices and meeting areas. (which used to be the Convent building in th days we had many nuns.)

May I also say: A “Crucifix” always has a Corpus. If there is no Corpus (Body) it is a “Cross”. It is repetitious to say “a Crucifix with a Corpus”.

It is very hard to describe all the changes and make one understand the end results, but it is very traditional as well as modern! And so beautiful that for a long time it took one’s breath away to be there. And that is the awe I want in my Church. Many other things were done that I did not state here, and they all added to the beauty of my Church. We used very “simple” materials of wood and stone and the overall effect is gorgeous without being ostentatious.

We use incense at Christmas and Easter times and sometimes other Masses as well. Our priests are more likely to chant than to recite Mass. And this encourages us to sing our responses as well. We have times of total silence after each Reading is done to reflect on what we have heard. The opening of the celebration is always with a reminder to silence cell phones and pagers and to also remind parents of the Nursery if it is a Mass when that is available. Our priest strives to create a sacred time for us.

***** Continued in the next post*******

Debby

 

[RazzsMom]

continued from previous post*

Kneeling? I have had back surgery and next week will have a shoulder surgery. I also need both knees replaced and both ankles surgically repaired. Kneeling is out of the question. I simply edge forward in my seat which makes me somewhat “bowed” and I lean forward a bit and pray. This keeps me from being in the way of the persons behind me who are kneeling and placing their hands on the back of my pew seat. And I feel it is a compromise to kneeling as it is not simply sitting comfortably in my seat. I also am not able to genuflect - so I give a “Sacred Bow” - a deep bow from the waist.

Our parishioners also bow before receiving the Body and Blood.

In the OP’s first post, I was much more concerned about the other “abuses” (if I may call them that) than about the lack of kneelers! I thought the placement of an American flag at the altar was a horrible thing to have in a Catholic Church as it is totally not permitted to be there! And the idea that people were milling about WHILE the priest was preaching the Homily!!! My Pastor would have told them to please SIT DOWN! (He has done it!)And the “celebrating” of a birthday??? Except for the Lord
s Birthday, (ha ha), why would this go on at a Celebration of the Eucharist???

I am happy that the OP chose to write to the Diocese about what he/she saw. I do not feel it was at all out of place or “gossiping” to have questioned and reported these practices. I think that even if the local Bishop were to reply that whatever practice a parishioner asks about was a valid practice and was permissable, that the Bishop ought to thank the petitioner for having a desire to please and honor God in all things. Even if that Church is NOT one’s “own parish” , I feel we all have a DUTY to want all our various parish Churches to honor the Holy Roman Catholic Church. * ALL * Catholic Churches belong to each and all of us! We are a Universal and One Church! Therefore, the Church I attend at vacation time is as much “my” Church as the one I attend weekly in my hometown!

Sorry for the long post…I hope I have not bored you to death! Blessings to all…

Debby

 

[RazzsMom]

OH - forgot to mention that we are thinking about having bells again as well. I think it will happen.

 

[mullenpm]

To all the posters who say that it is not “really” necessary to kneel during the Consecration they are wrong:

The GIRM clearly states:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the “Sanctus” until after the “Amen” of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. Chapter II, n. 43, para. 3.

Now, I suppose that the pastors of churches without kneelers will say that they do not want kneelers in their church and that comes under the stipulation “some other good reason”, which is silly.

And since people standing in front of one precludes seeing the priest genuflect after the Consecration, it also precludes one making a profound bow, especially when no bells are rung to indicate the Consecration is taking place.

Besides, the people in the church of my OP have been standing at the Consecration since 1970’s so generation after generation have lost the meaning of reverence and will continue to do so.

And about the placement of the Tabernacle - it is surrounded by flags but it is not even on the altar. It is off the platform where the altar is and to the back. I really had to search for it because I did not even see the Sanctuary light when I entered the church; I located it and then realized where the Tabernacle was placed.

 

[bmadamsberry]

To all the posters who say that it is not “really” necessary to kneel during the Consecration they are wrong:

The GIRM clearly states:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the “Sanctus” until after the “Amen” of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. Chapter II, n. 43, para. 3.

Ephasis added.

According to the GIRM it isn’t necessary to kneel. It is preferred, but not mandatory. I am not endorsing not kneeling (I go through great pains myself to kneel), but at the same time those that do not kneel are not automatically wrong for doing so.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

The presence or absence of kneelers has nothing to do with Vatican II.
I’ve been to Mass in Rome and other cities in Italy, Switzerland, and France.
There were no kneelers in any of the churches.
Many churches in Canada have no kneelers.
When I served in the Army we had no kneelers when deployed.
I strongly suspect that the Masses in which I participated where there were no kneelers were all valid.
I do not think that God cares whether or not there are kneelers.
Did the Apostles use kneelers?
At the Last Supper were not the Apostles seated?

Al Maloney

Oh my, oh my, oh my…are our feathers all ruffled or what? The question should not be is it a Catholic church if there are not kneelers but, why should we kneel in the presence of OUR LORD GOD who humbles Himself to come before us in the Holy Eucharist?

The kneelers have been put in simply to make it easier for us to kneel…since many of us have medical problems, are old and arthritic, etc. Whether or not there are kneelers…when Jesus comes down from heaven and presents Himself as a sacrifice on our altar…right there before us…how can we not prostrate ourselves before him? Those who don’t want to kneel must not understand what is happening.

Of course, the old Basilicas don’t have kneelers. Most don’t even have pews. In the early Church, people stood up in them…for the whole service…then knelt on the floor…on the rock floor when they felt so inclined. Doubtless, some prostrated themselves by laying down on their stomachs, head towards the altar/tabernacle as they prayed. This was also not an uncommon form of prayer, especially for people in religious organizations…such as monastaries, convents, etc…

Does this answer any questions? We need to humble ourselves before the Lord. Prayer is the answer. Love to you all. God bless you.

 

[Lucyabe]

OH PLEASE! No kneelers?! That describes more than half the churches in the Richmond VA Diocese - is that where you were visiting by any chance? And ringing bells?? Duh, haven’t heard that since 1966! Get real and recognize that our church is becoming less and less ROMAN CATHOLIC. I pray that our Holy Father can make some changes, but he is not a young man, and it is going to take a long time, if at all possible!

 

[Lucyabe]

Oh my, oh my, oh my…are our feathers all ruffled or what? The question should not be is it a Catholic church if there are not kneelers but, why should we kneel in the presence of OUR LORD GOD who humbles Himself to come before us in the Holy Eucharist?

The kneelers have been put in simply to make it easier for us to kneel…since many of us have medical problems, are old and arthritic, etc. Whether or not there are kneelers…when Jesus comes down from heaven and presents Himself as a sacrifice on our altar…right there before us…how can we not prostrate ourselves before him? Those who don’t want to kneel must not understand what is happening.

Of course, the old Basilicas don’t have kneelers. Most don’t even have pews. In the early Church, people stood up in them…for the whole service…then knelt on the floor…on the rock floor when they felt so inclined. Doubtless, some prostrated themselves by laying down on their stomachs, head towards the altar/tabernacle as they prayed. This was also not an uncommon form of prayer, especially for people in religious organizations…such as monastaries, convents, etc…

Does this answer any questions? We need to humble ourselves before the Lord. Prayer is the answer. Love to you all. God bless you.

 

[Lucyabe]

It is in the RUBRICS (Liturgical Rules) for the USA, that all should kneel for the Consecration and through the Eucharistic prayers – a good reason for kneelers!
Why shouldn’t we obey the rules of our Church?

 

[PrairieMom]

We were recently in a parish in the diocese where we used to live… they have several of these “modernized” churches there… you know, the ones where the altar is in the centre and the pews form a circle around. I kinda felt like it was circle time at kindergarden.

There were no kneelers, and that bothered me. My husband got down on the tile with our three year old and knelt anyway, he was the only one to do so. (I didn’t because I was still discreetly nursing our then 8.5 month-old who needed to nurse and nap RIGHT THEN).

Before Mass we looked up at the hippy Jesus where the should have been a crucifix. He was creepy. And seriously, he was a hippy.

Then we played “where-is-the-Tabernacle”. It was actually in a separate little room off to the front/side of the church and you didn’t even see it until you went all the way to the back of the building.

We found it odd that the presence of Christ himself was banished into a another room for a significant portion of Mass.

There were several other things that seriously bothered us about this parish, and I’ve considered writing to their bishop about it, but I thought I was weird for how I felt.

Turns out I’m not the only one. Thanks guys.

 

[Lucyabe]

Well, the bishop probably knows and approves of hiding Jesus in a tabernacle down the hall - that happens in the Richmond Diocese too… not all the churches, but it certainly is not disallowed. Churches look like auditoriums, and the people act like they are waiting for the big game to start… no solemnity, no reference… sad it is.

 

[mullenpm]

bmadamsberry, how are you reading the Rubic regarding kneeling at the Consecration that says it is not mandatory?

We should kneel from the Sanctus to the Amen - that is pretty specific. :sad_yes:

 

[jilly4ski]

I went to a Catholic College/University for undergrad. The nun’s “monestary” (as they called it) had no kneelers. Now granted 98% of the nuns were 65 years of age or older, but their claim was that they ran out of money when they remodeled the chapel. The pews they have, have the places for kneelers, and I would think that most pews like that would come with kneelers but maybe not. Of course there were other “interesting” things going on in that church at least for daily mass. Things like no lavabo (priest washes had) nuns giving a “homily” etc etc. I would kneel on the tile floor usually with one of my friends. except in the winter when you would track in snow dirt and salt. After my first year I started going to daily mass with the monks because mass was said in the choir stalls which had indiviual kneelers even if you were the only one to kneel. The nuns also discouraged kneeling because it showed a lack of unity in the church/community. This particular order of Saint Benedict, held community over every other virtue.

The parish I grew up in was built in the 80s (had kneelers) but had the tabernacle in the chapel quite a distance from the sanctuary. several years ago the got a new priest and he had the tabernacle moved to the sancuary. They cut a hole in the Jesus figure on a large relief of the last supper on the wall behind the alter, and placed the tabernacle there. It was very cool.

It is very discouraging when you are the only person kneeling and all your fellow students think you are some crazy person for doing so, or when people give you dirty looks when you kneel or come up to you after mass and tell you you are wrong for kneeling. So while the lack of kneelers themselves do not prohibit people the kneeling, the attitude and the people behind getting rid of the kneelers certainly try.

 

[PrairieMom]

Well, the bishop probably knows and approves of hiding Jesus in a tabernacle down the hall - that happens in the Richmond Diocese too… not all the churches, but it certainly is not disallowed. Churches look like auditoriums, and the people act like they are waiting for the big game to start… no solemnity, no reference… sad it is.

Yes, sad it is. I found in my particular instance, it felt kinda like a rock concert. They (the priests, although I’m not sure why there were two) even subtly bad-mouthed another priest in the diocese during the homily. I was shocked.

 

[Hyacinth_II]

It is in the RUBRICS (Liturgical Rules) for the USA, that all should kneel for the Consecration and through the Eucharistic prayers – a good reason for kneelers!
Why shouldn’t we obey the rules of our Church?

We should have kneelers. They should never have been taken out. Thank the people who thought they would appeal more to protestants if they did that, for doing that. They thought they had to “modernize” and “update” the church…to win the protestants over. All they had to do was to explain the TRUTH to them…as Jesus taught it to us. So, here we are.

I believe kneelers are on the way. Let’s pray for a return to more traditional practices…and more people will return to the church…with more people returning will also mean more support in the “Sunday Collection” and then eventually, after the other more pressing needs of the church are taken care of …the kneelers can be worked into the budget. In the meantime we can kneel anyway and offer up the pain. It will do us good.

God bless you.