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Hyacinth_II
Guest
Boy, will they be surprised when they get to heaven and Jesus thanks you for kneeling!
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paperwight
Guest
How can you be so sure?Boy, will they be surprised when they get to heaven and Jesus thanks you for kneeling!
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Hyacinth_II
Guest
Because Jesus told us to be humble. Getting on your knees is a humble act. Standing is prideful. Jesus talked about the Pharasies who would pray standing bragging to God their good works, and how prideful they were. He valued the meek poor widow much more. Of course, it is what is in your heart that Jesus sees. Kneeling without prayer and humble thoughts would be empty and not worth much.
People who make fun of others for praising the Lord through their actions…are being persecuted…they also will be rewarded. Its another beatitude.
•Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Explanation from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The word poor seems to represent an Aramaic 'ányâ (Hebrew 'anî), bent down, afflicted, miserable, poor; while meek is rather a synonym from the same root, 'ánwan (Hebrew 'ánaw), bending oneself down, humble, meek, gentle. Some scholars would attach to the former word also the sense of humility; others think of “beggars before God” humbly acknowledging their need of Divine help. But the opposition of “rich” (Luke 6:24) points especially to the common and obvious meaning, which, however, ought not to be confined to economical need and distress, but may comprehend the whole of the painful condition of the poor: their low estate, their social dependence, their defenceless exposure to injustice from the rich and the mighty. Besides the Lord’s blessing, the promise of the heavenly kingdom is not bestowed on the actual external condition of such poverty. The blessed ones are the poor “in spirit”, who by their free will are ready to bear for God’s sake this painful and humble condition, even though at present they be actually rich and happy; while on the other hand, the really poor man may fall short of this poverty “in spirit”.
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Hyacinth_II
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mullenpm
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Hyacinth II, I so value your posts.:hug1:
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bmadamsberry
Guest
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the “Sanctus” until after the “Amen” of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. Chapter II, n. 43, para. 3.bmadamsberry, how are you reading the Rubic regarding kneeling at the Consecration that says it is not mandatory?
We should kneel from the Sanctus to the Amen - that is pretty specific. :sad_yes:
It says that we should, not that we must. Furthermore, it gives reasons for not kneeling, which also means that it is not mandatory in all cases. We should kneel if we are able, but if there is a good reason that prevents it you don’t have to.
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mullenpm
Guest
bmadamsberry, do you say to your children - “I want you to do such and such a thing, therefore, you should do it.” You don’t need to say you “must” do it - a child understands the “should do it.”
Of course there are exceptions - which are stated in the Rubic, which I listed.
I still don’t understand your saying the Rubic does not say we MUST kneel. Perhaps a letter to the Bishops asking them to be more specific is in need, but I think most people understand what the “should” means.
It is tradition (there is that awful word for some Catholics) in our Church in the United States to kneel at the Consecration and always has been, even after Vatican II. Must I be more specific – in the Latin Rite in the United States.
Of course there are exceptions - which are stated in the Rubic, which I listed.
I still don’t understand your saying the Rubic does not say we MUST kneel. Perhaps a letter to the Bishops asking them to be more specific is in need, but I think most people understand what the “should” means.
It is tradition (there is that awful word for some Catholics) in our Church in the United States to kneel at the Consecration and always has been, even after Vatican II. Must I be more specific – in the Latin Rite in the United States.
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bmadamsberry
Guest
I’m in college and I have no wife nor child.bmadamsberry, do you say to your children - “I want you to do such and such a thing, therefore, you should do it.” You don’t need to say you “must” do it - a child understands the “should do it.”
Of course there are exceptions - which are stated in the Rubic, which I listed.
I still don’t understand your saying the Rubic does not say we MUST kneel. Perhaps a letter to the Bishops asking them to be more specific is in need, but I think most people understand what the “should” means.
It is tradition (there is that awful word for some Catholics) in our Church in the United States to kneel at the Consecration and always has been, even after Vatican II. Must I be more specific – in the Latin Rite in the United States.
We should kneel except in certain cases. That is what I am saying. I have no need to send a letter to the Bishops because I have already asked Wilton D. Gregory, the past president of the USCCB about this. We agreed that we should kneel because it is respectful, but that there are cases in which we cannot or should not and therefore don’t. It is not a matter of “you must kneel”, it is a matter of “you should kneel, but if you can’t because of these certain reasons, then it is okay”. Furthermore… what does it really matter in the scheme of things, to me, if you kneel or not? My focus during Mass is on G-d, not what the person beside me is doing. Some people, I believe, get so caught up in the rules and formula of the Mass that they miss that Mass!
I think that the situation that the OP experianced was grivious enough to warrent an outcry, but sometimes people go too far in their worry.
There’s a story about a hopefully soon-to-be saint that I read about from one of the apologists on this forum. She went to a daily mass, and the priest didn’t have a chalice, so he used a coffee cup. The blessed person (I wish I could remember her name) sat through Mass, recieved Christ in both the bread and wine, and didn’t say a word. After Mass she went up to the priest and asked for the coffee cup. She then went outside and buried it, stating that the coffee cup was now no longer an ordinary coffee cup. I Love that story.
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TerraAngel
Guest
I was lucky enough to belong to my home parish for 32 years, and then a second one for 20 more. Last year I moved across town (about 25 miles) and my new neighborhood is chock-full of Catholic churches! Yay!!! And each and every one is lacking kneelers.
I kneel on the floor when my knees allow it and if not, I sit on the edge of my chair with my hands on the chair ahead of me, clasped in prayer. All but a handful of us stand during the Eucharistic prayers and communion.
It’s a 1980s built church in the round. Modern but attractive artwork, except that the crucifix is carved from logs and very rustic. At a distance it is reminiscent of the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz, minus the funnel hat. I am not being sarcastic or irreverent; that’s what I saw in it. The holy days merit huge, HUGE wall hangings, mostly very modern or abstract religious art. The Stations of the Cross are placed all around the gathering area OUTSIDE the actual “church area.” THere are cry rooms for babies, I’ve seen little ones crawling forward under all the chairs to emerge before the altar – teenagers playing with Play-Doh as they sat next to their parents - little girls silently practicing cheerleading cheers - it’s horrific.
Then I sat back and thought about the reason I was there. I truly dislike the video-projected lyrics to the hymns up on the walls, and don’t like the gospel-style music (wonderful in it’s own context, but distracting in a basically white suburban parish.) But these are personal dislikes of mine. The Trinity is still worshiped; Jesus is received into our hearts and bodies; the Gospel is still the Gospel.
I have had to work very hard to settle down to concentrate of the Liturgy. While I’m finally getting used to it and the unusual musical mass settings, I had to “offer it up” for a long time.
Our archdiocesan vicariate seems to have been the line of demarcation from the parish traditions I was used to. Twenty minutes’ drive south, and the kneelers are back and the music I am used to is there. Very weird. So I drive further when I can and feel at home. When I’m in a hurry, I go to the local parish, ignore my surroundings and focus on the Lord.
Just my opinion!
I kneel on the floor when my knees allow it and if not, I sit on the edge of my chair with my hands on the chair ahead of me, clasped in prayer. All but a handful of us stand during the Eucharistic prayers and communion.
It’s a 1980s built church in the round. Modern but attractive artwork, except that the crucifix is carved from logs and very rustic. At a distance it is reminiscent of the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz, minus the funnel hat. I am not being sarcastic or irreverent; that’s what I saw in it. The holy days merit huge, HUGE wall hangings, mostly very modern or abstract religious art. The Stations of the Cross are placed all around the gathering area OUTSIDE the actual “church area.” THere are cry rooms for babies, I’ve seen little ones crawling forward under all the chairs to emerge before the altar – teenagers playing with Play-Doh as they sat next to their parents - little girls silently practicing cheerleading cheers - it’s horrific.
Then I sat back and thought about the reason I was there. I truly dislike the video-projected lyrics to the hymns up on the walls, and don’t like the gospel-style music (wonderful in it’s own context, but distracting in a basically white suburban parish.) But these are personal dislikes of mine. The Trinity is still worshiped; Jesus is received into our hearts and bodies; the Gospel is still the Gospel.
I have had to work very hard to settle down to concentrate of the Liturgy. While I’m finally getting used to it and the unusual musical mass settings, I had to “offer it up” for a long time.
Our archdiocesan vicariate seems to have been the line of demarcation from the parish traditions I was used to. Twenty minutes’ drive south, and the kneelers are back and the music I am used to is there. Very weird. So I drive further when I can and feel at home. When I’m in a hurry, I go to the local parish, ignore my surroundings and focus on the Lord.
Just my opinion!
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bmadamsberry
Guest
That’s great! I used to be the same way. And then one day a friend, after complaining to her about what people were doing wrong, asked me why I was watching them instead of listening to G-d. That really made me think and realize that while things such as the GIRM are important and do help us better honor G-d and it brings out the significance of the symbols and actions of the Mass, they are not themselves the Mass. Again, not to lessen the importance of these formulas and Rubrics and traditions, but the most important thing is Christ. These things point us to him.
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mdgspencer
Guest
God has bestowed on Jesus “the name that is above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth”(Philippians 2:9-10).
Two proceeding posters wrote:
Boy. will they be surprised when they get to heaven and Jesus thanks you for kneeling.
Two proceeding posters wrote:
Boy. will they be surprised when they get to heaven and Jesus thanks you for kneeling.
How can you be so sure?
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Hyacinth_II
Guest
Our Blessed Saint Paul felt the power of His holy name. This is exactly what I am trying to show you. How can you not kneel? You are standing before God. You are a sinner. (me too) You have hurt Him…yet… He has forgiven you. He loves you. Yet, you don’t feel the need to kneel? I’m amazed.
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Hyacinth_II
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God bless you too. Thank you for telling me. This discussion has allowed many to cry out their pain and share.Hyacinth II, I so value your posts.:hug1:
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Hyacinth_II
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Check here to see what our Holy Father is thinking about traditional practices…
chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1339202?eng=y
chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1339202?eng=y
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bmadamsberry
Guest
Good. I think that the Holy Father has done a good thing. There are many things from the Triditine Mass that I wish a lot of churches still did. At the same time, though, there are a lot of things that I’m glad the N.O. Mass did away with. But I am glad that the Pope has eased the restrictions on the Triditine Mass
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Incomplete
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It isn’t. I attend a university Newman Center with kneelers. We have, unfortunately, outgrown the church and there is not enough pew space for everyone anymore, but that’s in the process of being fixed and there will be kneelers for everybody again.
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CMP2
Guest
There is no such document. It was another ‘mis interpretation’ of Vat. II. Among many. Remember at this time there were many who were just waiting to pounce on the liberalism that was being waited for.
There were actually texts written that have been accused by some as being Heretical. This is now being examined by the Holy See and re written to clarify and firm up these errors. Thank God for this!
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ljvt
Guest
hmmm, don’t really see what the problem is. My church doesn’t have kneelers but everyone still kneels though. What’s wrong with kneeling on the carpet?
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Lucyabe
Guest
bmadamsberry, do you say to your children - “I want you to do such and such a thing, therefore, you should do it.” You don’t need to say you “must” do it - a child understands the “should do it.”
Of course there are exceptions - which are stated in the Rubic, which I listed.
I still don’t understand your saying the Rubic does not say we MUST kneel. Perhaps a letter to the Bishops asking them to be more specific is in need, but I think most people understand what the “should” means.
It is tradition (there is that awful word for some Catholics) in our Church in the United States to kneel at the Consecration and always has been, even after Vatican II. Must I be more specific – in the Latin Rite in the United States.
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Lucyabe
Guest
I don’t have my GIRM handy, but I wonder if it says we MUST stand for the gospel, or we MUST sit for the homily? All this should and must talk that’s been going on.
I stand for the gospel, sit for the other readings and for the homily. I wonder what people would think if I chose to stand for the homily or the other Readings?
Yet we can sit or stand or kneel for the Consecration - the Most Important part of our Mass - the entire meaning - the Eucharist… we can choose whatever position we prefer? Doesn’t matter what the rubrics say we should do… Where is our Unity in this??
I stand for the gospel, sit for the other readings and for the homily. I wonder what people would think if I chose to stand for the homily or the other Readings?
Yet we can sit or stand or kneel for the Consecration - the Most Important part of our Mass - the entire meaning - the Eucharist… we can choose whatever position we prefer? Doesn’t matter what the rubrics say we should do… Where is our Unity in this??
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