No longer a Roman Catholic

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oat soda:
it is absolutely true that those who die in a state of original sin are damned.
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This WAS the teaching of the Popes but not any longer. Get with the programme, Oat Soda!

Here is the teaching of Saint Paul:

“…for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.”
Romans 2:14-16

And in the eloquent words of someone from my own Church, the Russian theologian Alexis Khomiakov:

"The Church visible, or upon earth, lives in complete communion and unity with the whole body of the Church, of which Christ is the Head. She has abiding within her Christ and the grace of the Holy Spirit in all their living fullness, but not in the fullness of their manifestation, for she acts and knows not fully, but only so far as it pleases God.

“Inasmuch as the earthly and visible Church is not the fullness and completeness of the whole Church which the Lord has appointed to appear at the final judgment of all creation, she acts and knows only within her own limits; and (according to the words of Paul the Apostle, to the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 5. 12) does not judge the rest of mankind, and only looks upon those as excluded, that is to say, not belonging to her, who exclude themselves. The rest of mankind, whether alien from the Church, or united to her by ties which God has not willed to reveal to her, she leaves to the judgment of the great day. The Church on earth judges for herself only, according to the grace of the Spirit, and the freedom granted her through Christ, inviting also the rest of mankind to the unity and adoption of God in Christ; but upon those who do not hear her appeal she pronounces no sentence, knowing the command of her Saviour and Head, “not to judge another man’s servant” (Rom. 14. 4).”

"The Church is One"stmaryofegypt.org/devotion/on_Unity.htm
 
Dear Participants of this thread,

I invite you to re-read my original post in this thread.
That is the attitude that I leave with. Gratitude for
the good that was given me and to the people who
gave me this good.
And now I add to that the concern and comfort and
counsel offered here in many of the responses to my posts.

No, I will not be found in another Christian
denomination.
And to those who presented the fires of hell
as an inducement to remain, I addressed that
concept earlier in this thread.

I will spend the remaining years of my life
thanking God for being God.

Thank you for the opportunity to say goodbye.
Maureen [reen12]
 
Finally an answer!!! Oat soda, you said that those who die in a state of original sin are damned but then you say infants who are sinless and die are saved. Which is it? When I was a catholic it was a priest who told me a newborn who hasn’t been baptized will raost in the fires of hell because his original sin has not been washed away. Whether or not the church (once again) has changed their dogma, that is what I was taught in a catholic church.

Strider,

you say I left because of ignorance of the true church and that I should get a catechism. I don’t go to the word of man for answers, I go to the word of God. As far as catholicism being the true church, I guess you’ll have to get in line because the “true church” has already been claimed by Jehova’s witnesses, Baptists, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc. I have the true church. It’s not in a building or a eucharist or a sacrament, it’s in a personal worship with Jesus that I engage in every day.
Catholic dude,
I have been studying scripture like this for quite awhile and I don’t see where you’re getting your info. ITim 2:4 correctly translated states that God will have ALL men (not one or a few, but ALL) to be saved" It is so plain even a child could understand. If this scripture said “God will NOT have all men to be saved”, then you’d say “see it’s right in the bible, God wont save everyone”, but even though it’s as clear as day you still use it to support your pagan philosiphy that God will hate and torture his enemies even though he commands us to love and forgive our enemies.
 
As one very sincere, Irish searcher myself, may I caution you against taking yourself too darn seriously?

It sounds to me as though you may have lost the ability to laugh. Especially at yourself.

I lost that. I know what it’s like to be so inwardly focused that I lost sight of where I should have been going.

The best way I can suggest you start back towards the faith of your childhood and loving Christ and His Church is to start with one committment to do ONE thing.

For me, it started four years ago. I committed to going to Mass ONCE A MONTH - just “to see” if I could fit in again. Then, to my utter amazement, all the other stuff started falling into place. Now I actually am asked my OPINION regarding how Catholics are perceived in the area I live.

If anyone had told me, 13 years ago, I would someday be taking classes in how to be an Apologetic I would have just laughed :rotfl: .

So, at the risk of sound mean (imagine I am smiling at you and wagging a finger in pretend scolding mode :tsktsk: ), get off your butt, stop worrying so much about what YOU think and take some action.

In my long and winding road I have learned two truths:
  1. There is a God and it is not me.
  2. Whether I am worrying about myself, thinking highly of myself or thinking poorly of myself, I think far too much about MYSELF.
:love:
 
This WAS the teaching of the Popes but not any longer. Get with the programme, Oat Soda!
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no, still is. the substance of the churches teachings don’t change. the ordinary way to get into heaven is to be baptized and believe in Jesus. the extraordinary way to salvation is by a baptism of desire or blood. this would include those people who are “ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.” in which case they would have a baptism of desire.

as for children, the catechism says "1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, … allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."

No where does the church say that babies who aren’t baptized and die are saved, only that we can hope they are saved. The bottom line is we will not know until we are in heaven.
a newborn who hasn’t been baptized will raost in the fires of hell because his original sin has not been washed away. Whether or not the church (once again) has changed their dogma, that is what I was taught in a catholic church.
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the church never has held this view so it really doesn’t matter.
 
Anyone who claims that what they were reading in the Bible was “directly opposed to what they were being taught as a Catholic” is lying.

That’s not true.

If you want to claim that you did not understand how what you were taught was based in the Bible and you wish you could have found out sooner that’s one thing.

Everything we do is based and found in the Holy Scripture. If you cannot find it, you are reading without guidance and without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Why not take up the challenge, call your local parish and ask to join the Bible Study there? Don’t claim something that is not true - bring your gifts to the table and find out the truth. Someone there will help you but only if you are sincerely seeking truth instead of just wanting to keep believing your own falsehoods.

I had no problem studying the Bible with members of the community that claimed I belonged to a “false religion”. It turned out they were shocked at how comfortable I was with the Holy Scripture, how much I had been taught about it through a normal Catholic upbringing and now two of them are in RCIA and scheduled to be brought into the Church this Easter.

I challenge all the “ex-Catholics” - take a proactive stance to learning about the faith of your Fathers before you reject it out of hand.
 
oat soda:
no, still is. the substance of the churches teachings don’t change. the ordinary way to get into heaven is to be baptized and believe in Jesus. the extraordinary way to salvation is by a baptism of desire or blood. this would include those people who are “ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.” in which case they would have a baptism of desire.

as for children, the catechism says “1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, … allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”

No where does the church say that babies who aren’t baptized and die are saved, only that we can hope they are saved. The bottom line is we will not know until we are in heaven.
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So, once you pile on all the explanations, your first statement that “*it is absolutely true that those who die in a state of original sin are damned” * is just meaningless in reality. So why say it in the first place? 😦
 
Dear Maurren:

I’m what you call a “Retread”, sometimes referred to as “What the cat drug in”. If you’ll do some reading of my posts, you’ll see that I was every bit as confused as you were, but only at a much younger age. You’ll also see that it took an intervention worthy of the Prodigal and The Hound of Heaven to bring me back, and that, when I came back, I had to be carried back.

Imperfect understanding and confusion are neither sinful nor are they reasons to leave the Church. In my case, I had other reasons, including sinful Pride and Lust and everything that comes from those. I don’t discern anything like those between you and God.
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reen12:
Hello.

Thanks, BulldogCath, for thinking that I have a
good heart…I like to think that I do. Those who
love me tell me that I do.

If you can bear with me for a short personal
annecdote:
I can remember, as if it was yesterday,

being 6 years old, sitting in a classroom,

the sunlight streaming in the window, a small

catechism opened to the first page,

and reading:

Who is God?

God is the Supreme Being Who made all

things.

My little heart sang with joy over this,

and my heart filled with a love of God that

has not diminished one iota in 50 plus years.

As I progressed through school, the

catechism got larger and more

complex…treating topics such as

what “types” of grace there are etc.’

and how each human is enmeshed in

original sin…til my head spun.

I would never have chosen this path

for myself. But it was my path, because
I was born into a Catholic family.

I have no intention of joining another Christian
denomination. I would like to embrace Judaism,
but I wouldn’t fit in there because I could not
pray that the Messiah will come…because maybe
He has already come.
All I want to do is to pray to the God I knew
when I was 6.
Someday I will go to a temple, just to
join in the prayers, not to convert.
I hope they’ll take me in. Maybe I could be
considered a “righteous Gentile.”

God bless each of your hearts,
reen12
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Maureen, if you’ll take a look at the new Catechism and talk to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, you’ll find that it’s not as nearly as complicated as you’ve begun to think it is, and that are far more reasons to stay than there are to leave. Our Lord doesn’t require that you know and understand ALL of the Theology and the Dogma perfectly. He only requires that you do so to the best of your ability and that you trust, accept and obey Him and His Church.

What is required is TRUST, NOT UNDERSTANDING. The Two are completely different things. To keep your trust in God alive, you still need to come and gather with His people and take The Church’s Sacraments. I don’t have to UNDERSTAND the finer points of Transubstantiation to TRUST that my Lord is there in the host and the cup. It helps if I do, but I don’t have to have that deeper understanding, but I do need to trust.

Can you live with the CONFUSION and TRUST Our Lord and His Church in spite of the confusion?

Please, don’t leave, I can tell you from personal experience, it’s hell out there. I’ve been through it. As I said, I had to be carried back in, and I’m still a bit of a mess.

May God give you the peace that passes all understanding.

In Christ, Michael
 
LSK:

You forgot about peple who are using really rottee translations of the Sacred Scriptures, or who are using Biles where part of the Canonical OT has been cut out (Protestant Bibles)…
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LSK:
Anyone who claims that what they were reading in the Bible was “directly opposed to what they were being taught as a Catholic” is lying.

That’s not true.

If you want to claim that you did not understand how what you were taught was based in the Bible and you wish you could have found out sooner that’s one thing.

Everything we do is based and found in the Holy Scripture. If you cannot find it, you are reading without guidance and without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Why not take up the challenge, call your local parish and ask to join the Bible Study there? Don’t claim something that is not true - bring your gifts to the table and find out the truth. Someone there will help you but only if you are sincerely seeking truth instead of just wanting to keep believing your own falsehoods.

I had no problem studying the Bible with members of the community that claimed I belonged to a “false religion”. It turned out they were shocked at how comfortable I was with the Holy Scripture, how much I had been taught about it through a normal Catholic upbringing and now two of them are in RCIA and scheduled to be brought into the Church this Easter.

I challenge all the “ex-Catholics” - take a proactive stance to learning about the faith of your Fathers before you reject it out of hand.
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Otherwise, you’re correct.

I was out for over 20 years, and one of the first things I witnessed was someone defending the dogmas of the Church, and explaining them, from Scripture.

As I said, I was OUT for over 20 years, and I’ve been back only 17 months, so I still con’t do that excpet for the major dogmas.

I think that CATHOLICS should also follow your advice as well. After I returned, I had a conversation with a woman in her 70’s who was a lifelong Catholic (she attended Mass weekly) who claimed that she had never heard that Jesus had claimed to be God.

I showed her where and how he did it and just what the language he used to do it meant and why the Jewish authorities and others reacted to it so harshly (It was blasphemy if Jesus wasn’t who He said He was).

I had been back, at that point, for maybe 10 months! There was NO reason for her NOT to have known what I knew!

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
Eddie,
So you are a guy with a (our) Bible. A church of me, myself, and I. Highly critical of Catholicism, but showing little understanding of it. The Church does not teach that unbaptized infants go to hell. I think bearing false witness is against one of the 10 commandments. I am a priest and say with authority we don’t teach what you say we teach. If that is the reason you left then you have some serious problems.
 
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Tlaloc:
Reen,

You might consider quakers, they’re pretty short on sermons and rules to the faith and big on just doing stuff together. Wasn’t my thing but sounds like it may be the direction you’re going in. Good luck.
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Tlaloc:

That’s the nicest, most decent thing I’ve read from you in a long time.

But I still don’t think that Maureen should switch, not so long as she beleives the Catholic Faith, and just has problems with being confused!

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
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therealgoodnews:
… I think religion is evil because it seperates christians. I am a former catholic who is now a born again christian who beleives in the scriptural truth that god will have all men to be saved and to come into a knowledge of the truth ITim 2:4
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What do you mean by separates? The only separations is when people go around doing their own thing like you (aka Protestants). Christians ALWAYS had leaders, that is how the truth was preserved. How else would you know about Christianity?
Catholic dude,
I have been studying scripture like this for quite awhile and I don’t see where you’re getting your info. ITim 2:4 correctly translated states that God will have ALL men (not one or a few, but ALL) to be saved" It is so plain even a child could understand. If this scripture said “God will NOT have all men to be saved”, then you’d say “see it’s right in the bible, God wont save everyone”, but even though it’s as clear as day you still use it to support your pagan philosiphy that God will hate and torture his enemies even though he commands us to love and forgive our enemies.
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What info are you talking about? It looks like your putting words in my mouth. Who cares about doing good if your saved no matter what? Is it a free ride? Why does Jesus say “depart from me” and “I never knew you” and stuff like that?

Im pulling out the main idea out of 1Tim. Its that there ARE people in charge on earth and parading around with your own banner is heresy in itself.
1Tim1:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. 3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
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But I guess religion is evil, so doctrine doesnt mean anything.
1Tim2:
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
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What you are doing is using a passage way out of context and putting words in my mouth. It says God desires all men be saved and come to the truth. All through this Paul desires prayer and intercession for all men. Your trying to say that everyone is going to heaven no matter what when thats not what this is talking about.
 
So, once you pile on all the explanations, your first statement that “*it is absolutely true that those who die in a state of original sin are damned” *is just meaningless in reality. So why say it in the first place? 😦
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i totally agree with what you are saying. the church today trying to sound more appealing has watered down some of its traditional teaching to the point where they don’t mean anything at all. like, “there is no salvation outside the church”. the church has this invisible part to it and one doesn’t even have to realize he or she is in it. wouldn’t it be better to just say, “there is no salvation for those who reject God knowingly until the end” and just get rid of “there is no salvation outside the church”.

but you know we can’t because it’s part of our sacred Tradition, just like baptism of desire and blood which you rightly pointed out the church seems to be trying to get away from or limbo for unbaptized infants. but, i try and look at the teachings of the church and how they were expressed through the ages and not just after VII. people act like the church has changed when the fact is it really can’t. we are all bound to Tradition.

it’s not like the church wasn’t holy then and is right now, if anything, we seem to get closer to apostacy. so, as they say, VII in light of tradition.
 
Catholic dude,

You can’t see how religion seperates christians? Your very religion has fought wars and killed millions of other christians right up to this present day. Why do they do this? Because although catholics and protestants both beleive that Jesus is the son of God and our saviour, they are seperated due to the man made doctrines that are part of each religion. And you don’t see how that’s evil? We can’t even have peace between christians in this world never mind pagans. The only important thing is Jesus, everything else is irrelevant. But surprise, surprise, Jesus is what all christian religions have in common, so why are men so focused on the little things that seperate us. Because religion is a tool of Satan. How happy Satan must be when he sees christians killing each other over such stupid trivial things. As far as ITim 2:4, please show me where God desires all men to be saved. The scripture says he WILL have all men be saved. Verse 6 states that Jesus gave himself a ransom for who? For ALL to be testified in due time. So Paul is saying that all men will be saved and that Jesus gave himself so that ALL will be testified, not necessarily in this life, but in DUE TIME. I have hundreds others that you can try and dispute if you’d like. You show your true colors when you say “who cares about doing good if you’re saved no matter what” Are you kidding me!!! So you’re saying that the only reason you live a good life is to escape the fires of hell? Well I live a good life because I want to please God and living a good life is a benefit for me and the people around me. It shouldn’t matter if were all saved or not, living a good life is still important.

cestusdei,

You say that catholics don’t teach that unbaptized babies go to hell. Well that’s what my family was taught, and right on this site catholics are saying “we don’t know we just leave it in God’s hands” Let me ask you this. You beleive that the only way to be saved is to be baptized and accept Jesus as your saviour, so how is it that a baby born with original sin and dying without his original sin being washed away, and not accepting Jesus does not go to hell. Obviously you agree with me that God is powerful enough to save anyone he wants whether they ask for salvation or not.
 
oat soda,

in your last post you have summed up why I left and will never belong to organized religion. Your church doesn’t know if it’s coming or going. The vatican (men, not god) decide what rules catholics should follow and how the bible should be interpreted. You then go on to say the church cant change “we are all bound to tradition”. Would you like to see what Jesus thought about the traditions of men? “These people honor me with their words, but their heart is really far away from me. It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach the TRADITIONS OF MEN as though they were my own laws.” Mk 7:6-7 What does Paul say about this oat soda? “See to it, then, that noone ENSLAVES you by means of the WORTHLESS DECEIT of human wisdom, which comes from the TRADITIONS handed down by MEN and NOT from Christ.” Col 2:8 Do you need more proof? I have others. Notice how the doctrines and traditions of men ENSLAVE you. Paul taught us to break free of the bondage of religion and that’s what I did and I am now free as a bird to worship Christ. To give you a background on who Paul was criticizing, he was speaking to the Colossians. They had set up a church in Colossae where they were teaching that in order to know Jesus and have full salvation one must submit to special rites like circumsision and baptism, and that they must observe strict rules regarding foods and other matters. Paul taught that these human rites were actually leading people away from jesus because people were putting faith in human traditions instead of Jesus. Kinda sounds like he coulda been speaking directly to the catholic church dont you think?
 
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therealgoodnews:
oat soda,

in your last post you have summed up why I left and will never belong to organized religion. Your church doesn’t know if it’s coming or going. The vatican (men, not god) decide what rules catholics should follow and how the bible should be interpreted. You then go on to say the church cant change “we are all bound to tradition”. Would you like to see what Jesus thought about the traditions of men? “These people honor me with their words, but their heart is really far away from me. It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach the TRADITIONS OF MEN as though they were my own laws.” Mk 7:6-7 What does Paul say about this oat soda? “See to it, then, that noone ENSLAVES you by means of the WORTHLESS DECEIT of human wisdom, which comes from the TRADITIONS handed down by MEN and NOT from Christ.” Col 2:8 Do you need more proof? I have others. Notice how the doctrines and traditions of men ENSLAVE you. Paul taught us to break free of the bondage of religion and that’s what I did and I am now free as a bird to worship Christ. To give you a background on who Paul was criticizing, he was speaking to the Colossians. They had set up a church in Colossae where they were teaching that in order to know Jesus and have full salvation one must submit to special rites like circumsision and baptism, and that they must observe strict rules regarding foods and other matters. Paul taught that these human rites were actually leading people away from jesus because people were putting faith in human traditions instead of Jesus. Kinda sounds like he coulda been speaking directly to the catholic church dont you think?
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Yes,could very well be. :eek: God Bless
 
My Bible says to “hold fast to tradition whether by word of mouth or letter”. I guess you don’t have that verse in your Bible huh?
 
Catholic believe that baptism is indeed the ordinary way of salvation. However, we also believe that non-baptized people who are martyred for the faith are “baptized in blood”. Also that people who desire baptism, but through no fault of their own cannot receive it are “baptized by desire”. When it come to unbaptized children there is a tradition in which one includes them in “baptism by desire”. But the Church does not teach they are in hell in any case. Dominus Iesus spells some of this out rather clearly. Before you are critical of Catholicism learn what we really believe and teach.
 
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