No longer a Roman Catholic

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Hello, Lost&Found,

I was exchanging information with someone last
night and I noted that while I have listed the good
things that I have done, I haven’t “similarly published”
the sins of 50 years.
The “adult-rational” part of me has been sinning
as all human beings do…and that is totally
separate from the younger, dearer Tiny Timid.
If God has accepted my repentence for the
arrogance, anger and occassional verbal
visciousness that I have treated others with across
the years, then I hope that He will listen to
Tiny Timid’s prayers for you, dear Lost&Found.
It wouldn’t even have occurred to me to
“throw the first stone” at the woman cowering
in fear. I am wayyyy too cognizant of my own
genuine sins…those done by the grown-up
Reen, who pleads with God to have mercy and
forgive. I think He does, don’t you?
reen12
 
Reen,

Have you ever heard of the book " Hinds Feet on High Places" by Hannah Hurnard?
 
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reen12:
Hello, KevinWalker,

Thank you for your kind reply.

I have studied the lives of the saints and been
most edified…especially St. Benedict Joseph
Labre. I sent to England for a biography of
him, printed in the 18th century. I even spent a
lot of time reading the Greek and Russian Orthdox
lives of the saints.

In our dining room is a bookcase full of the
works of the early Fathers of the Church.

There is no way in heaven that 40 years of
reading did not present me with the truths
of the faith. But faith is a gift of grace, not
to be acquired by any knowledge I may have.
Thomas a Kempis was right in that regard,
I think.
God bless you for taking the time to reply,
and your prayers would be appreciated.

reen12
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Reen,

Blessings to you.

Yes faith is a gift, but we don’t get it in a vacuum. I’ve been reading along, and would just like to say, you’re not alone in your difficulties. A good friend of mine and I were sitting along the river walk in San Antonio Texas a few years ago, drinking a beer on a hot Texas afternoon listening to mariachi’s play and having a God talk. When we get together, he always initiates the God talk, not me. You see, at 12 years old, as a Jew, he needed to make a decision. Kind of like Catholics and Confirmation. Except my friend found himself always arguing with his Rabbi about everything. He just couldn’t buy it all, and didn’t continue with his faith… In college, he studied philosophy which put him in touch with Jean Paul Satre, existentialism, and ultimately atheism. He is not an angry atheist, just a very pleasant tempered atheist. 40 years later, he still wants to talk about God when we get together. I love how God works.

Cutting the story short, every faith has very bright people that have trouble with one thing or another. Just know that difficulties don’t mean that what you struggle with is eronious. Just know that God will not stop trying to woo you. He gave you many gifts. One being faith. Just don’t sit on it as Peter instructs…

2 Peter

“2) Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3) as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4) by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

Reen, knowledge of Jesus is essential in order to be partakers of the divine nature, blessings and life… Going to Judaism from Catholicism is by definition rejecting Jesus and what He did for you. You need to know that. No one goes to the Father except through Jesus. It sounds restrictive, but it’s the truth. Once you know this, don’t reject it. Peter continues,
  1. But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6) to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7) to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8) For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9) For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10) Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;"
Life is about choices. And in order to choose right, and reject wrong, we need to know what is right so we can reject what is wrong. Otherwise when God says in Deuteronomy “today I put before you life and death, blessings and curses, choose life” He wants us to make the correct choice. If one didn’t know what brings life and blessings vs that which brings curses and death, the wrong choice could be made…God wants all to come to the fullness of truth. Peter gave us great council on how to do this.

We’re praying for you
 
Reen12,

I’m pretty sure He does too. Your own story sounds familiar (like the relationship of God & us in Scripture). That’s why Jesus came along, so we might as well make use of Him!

It’s no secret we’ve all done, and continue to do, all sorts of stupid and selfish and embarrassing things. I’m sure you already have listed them and confessed them. So why not just accept Jesus’ gift of forgiveness and His Total Gift of Himself, with a big smile and say “why, thank you Sir for dropping in, I accept your gift” and move on. We can share Him with others, but just let Him worry about His job of coordinating all that business about how and when different people grow. He knows better how to work through us than we do.

There’s that expression “Every Saint has a past, and every sinner has a future.”
 
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Ahimsa:
Core part of the “Fire” essay:

[All this is well and good, but I think what Reen was objecting to was not the fact that humans *choose
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separation from God during their earthly lives, but the idea that, somehow, there is a point in time when God says, essentially, “Too late. You had your chance. Now that you’ve made your decision to separate yourself from me, you can no longer return into my Love. The universe is structured so that once you enter hell, you may never come out, even if you really want to.”

Maureen may know this already? The Irish in the old days believed a soul could be delivered from hell.

It is something from the Rule of Saint Maelruain, from the holy monastery of Tallaght, 8th century:

"There is nothing which a person does for a soul that has departed that does not help it, both vigil and abstinence, and singing the intercession and frequent blessings. Filii pro mortuis parentibus debent poenitere.

"A whole year therefore was Saint Maidoc of Ferns, with all his people, living on water and biscuit so as to ransom the soul of Brandubh, son of Eochaidh, from hell. "
And a story from an ancient Patericon:

I love this story about the redemption of a demon.

Don’t swoop on me…!! I know the theological pitfalls in
this story – but I still like this story!
It resonates in my old Irish heart.

…With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba
Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon
who had come to tempt him. “Release me, Father, and let
me go,” pleaded the demon, “I will not come to tempt you
again”. “I will gladly do that, but on one condition,”
replied the monk. “You must sing for me the song that
you sang before God’s Throne on high, before your fall.”

The demon responded, “You know I cannot do that; it will
cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father,
no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live,
for you will surely die.” “Then you will have to remain
here in my cell,” said the monk, “and bear with me the
full struggle of repentance.” “Let me go, do not force me
to suffer,” pleaded the demon." “Ah, but then you must
sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall with Satan.”

So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was
no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible
at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang,
the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began
slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and
increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught
up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship
and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour
and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the
Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible
and invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages
resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and
glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba’s humble cell,
and the walls which had enclosed it were no more. Ineffable
love and joy surged into the very depths of the being
of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently
stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body
of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.
-oOo-
 
Hello, steve b,

I loved the anecdote about you and your Jewish friend.
Why does it remind me of Francis Thompson’s
The Hound of Heaven? I do have a sense of
kindred spirit with him, from what you’ve said.
The story that you told will remain green in my memory.
It is beautiful.
[Your friend must have intellectual stamina to spare if
he waded through Sartre.]
I read your whole post, and will re-read it to
ponder further.
Kindest regards,
reen12
 
Dear Fr. Ambrose,

Saints in heaven! You are Irish throughout!
What a beautiful, beautiful thing you shared.
As I read, I kept saying: Yes! Yes!
How like the mercy of Almighty God, to call
that miserable creature back.

Maureen

I got to part V of the reading you recommended,
and then had to stop and rest. I’ll complete the
reading tonight.
 
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reen12:
Dear Sir William,
Sir William, how, how can I accept Jesus
talking about a lake of fire, everlasting flames.
To me, that is insane. Period.
No sane human being would condemn anyone
to that, no matter what.
The trouble is, it is not that I have not
read the words of Jesus concerning hell…I have
pondered them for decades, and I have
never been able to overcome the revulsion
they evoked in me as a child and still
evoke in me.
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reen12,
I was hoping someone else would do it, but I guess they’re either too nice or more concerned with not offending you, so it’s up to me, as usual, to play “bad cop.”
First, you’re playing fast and loose with your immortal soul. Immortal, that means forever. The Catholic Church is the Truth, you know it, and yet you want to leave because “it’s hard.”
You are about to commt youself to that lake of fire you find so repulsive. I agree. That would be insane.
You can’t keep up? Watch “The Passion,” again. Did Jesus give up? Take a look at John Paul II. Does it look like he’s having fun?
You bet Jesus is demanding!
And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”
Lk 9:23
I’ve read your posts. You’re intelligent and thoughtful. Maybe you think too much. Faith is a day-by-day and minute-by-minute decision. It doesn’t always feel good.
Yes, you have difficulties and have dealt with problems admirably. Sounds like a fairly typical American middle-class story.
You have the Truth that will set you free and are about to throw it away because it’s hard!?
Yeah, we all have things to deal with. I won’t repeat my story, it’s on some early posts of mine, but every day when I wake up and just don’t feel like getting out of bed, I look over and see Jesus standing there, waiting to hand me my my cross for the day.
Jesus is willing to humble himself and come to you and me daily in the Eucharist. Nothing is more important than that. NOTHING!
You’re a poet. A poet feels. Faith takes thought and demands hard things from us.
Remember, the angels had only one chance to choose God or turn away from him. As long as we have breath we have a chance to turn back to him. How could he be more fair than that, or respect us more than to let us choose for ourselves?
Okay, I’ve been not too nice or understanding. I thought it might help. I have to kick myself in the butt every day, many, many times.
As I said, you have the Truth. Embrace it. Don’t throw it away.
 
Hi Maureen,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. Regarding your fixation on the lake of fire…

Some things aren’t meant to be taken literally. I think the point is that being eternally separated from God (hell) would be like being in a lake of fire. We want to avoid it like we would avoid being in a lake of fire, for we would know of Heaven’s existence (in a way that is more real than we can imagine now) yet we would never be able to get there…definitely an eternal torment. Remember that God wants us all to go to Heaven, we send ourselves to hell by purposely and intentionally cutting ourselves off from Him.

Disclaimer: Sir_William is not a member of the College of Bishops and therefore cannot teach dogmatically. All rights to infallible teaching are reserved by the Holy See. Offer void where prohibited by law. Not applicable in Utah. Freight, license, and taxes extra. Please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery.
 
Hello, Strider,

I didn’t think that you sounded like a bad cop.
My experience of reading your letter was more
like that of a new recruit, the drill sargent
“in his face” and being told that “you’re not
in Kansas, anymore, Dorothy!” [OK, mixed
metaphors.]
Now, what is the purpose of a drill sargent?
If he cares about the recruits he’s training, he
wants them to be the best trained, savvy,
well-protected soldiers he can guide them
to be…for their sakes. Because he has been
on the battlefield and knows what they will
endure based on his own experience.

Thank you for your reply, Strider. It was
and act of charity on your part, to be
willing to step forward to say what you
thought needed to be said to me.
reen12
 
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reen12:
Dear Fr. Ambrose,
Saints in heaven! You are Irish throughout!
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That is the best thing anyone has said to me in years! Thank you.

You may know from your theology reading about the teaching of “apocatastasis” and how it affected the Eastern Orthodox Church. It teaches that in the end Christ will be all in all, as the Gospel says, and all will be saved. One or two of the greatest of the Church Fathers in the 4th century taught this, although in the long run the Church made the decision that this was an error.

But the desire and the tendency for the salvation of all things, men and demons, runs deep within Orthodoxy still.

The theologians certainly have their common opinion that the demons cannot be saved because their revolt was an irrevocable decision on their part -but the Saints may be at odds with them, and I’d like to throw my lot in with the Saints.

For example, Saint Isaac the Syrian (7th century) wrote:

“What is a merciful heart? It is a heart that burns with love for the whole creation — for men, for birds, for beasts, for demons and for every creature.”

Saint Isaac is not only wonderful and holy. He is also disturbing. I have no answers to this puzzle, but I do cherish the suspicion that our Lord expects us to mull it over a bit. Perhaps He has left us this Saint amd his words as a kind of gentle question mark placed over some of our certainties. Not over the essential ones, for St Isaac himself is proof of those, but perhaps over others that we - not God - have declared certain.

See the web article
orthodoxeurope.org/theospirit/000013.php
“The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian”
by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev

Hilarion Alfeyev, The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian.
Cistercian Studies Series, Number 175. Kalamazoo MI and
Spencer MA: Cistercian Publications, 2000. Pp. 321.
 
Hi Fr. Ambrose and Ahimsa,

Thanks for the link, and thank you, Ahimsa, for
the current link address. I clicked on it and
wondered where it had gone to.

Fr. Ambrose, it has always elevated my soul,
thinking that* all* creation will rejoice at the salvation
of the sons and daughters of God…

I’ve got to put off part V and forward until tomorrow,
rather than today [late Saturday night, here.]
The exigencies of housework taketh their toll.

Again, the story that you shared in your last
post was so beautiful.

Maureen [reen12]
PS: It was St.Patrick’s day, here in the U.S.
 
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reen12:
Hello, steve b,

I loved the anecdote about you and your Jewish friend.
Why does it remind me of Francis Thompson’s
The Hound of Heaven? I do have a sense of
kindred spirit with him, from what you’ve said.
The story that you told will remain green in my memory.
It is beautiful. Your friend must have intellectual stamina to spare if
he waded through Sartre read your whole post, and will re-read it to ponder further. Kindest regards,
reen12
Click to expand...
Reen,

I’m convinced God is tugging at my friend just like He is tugging at you… Let Him catch you. Teresa of Avila went through her dark night of the soul and emerged triumphant. Have you read her?
 
Dear Maureen,

I think you have some form of burnout. Since starting this thread, you have come to life with reading all the loving responses of different people. You are now healing.

Nursing both parents through difficult illnesses must have shattered your equilibrium. It gave you a negative state of mind where you want out. You know, stop the world, I want to get off. You want to escape life and be six years old again because life was then so uncomplicated. There are things and events in your life you regretted and feel they were sinful or wrong, and by Catholic rules these would have merited eternal punishment.

You want out of Catholicism because it is rich with ideas and complex in structure and ideals. And especially the doctrine on sin, suffering and redemption. All those commandments have too many do nots. And you are considering Judaism because it is the younger form of Catholicism. Before being Catholic, the People of God were Jews. It must be easier to turn to a less demanding religion, so you imagine. Being Catholic in your adult life makes you full of tedium. Being Jewish is being akin to being six years old again.

Part of having studied philosophy and theology enables you to continue to read and be intellectual, but maybe too much brain activity also tires you out. Unless you love what you are reading. You are reading various things now, dear Tiny Timid, to please the people who are trying to help you. They are now friends. And you read what they recommend. You are too tired to know what to do next.

I’ve not suffered severe mental illness, but I’ve had depressing periods in my life. I’ve also been with friends and relatives who are under depression or schizophrenia. I think of how I helped them and I think of you, dear Maureen, and even if I don’t know you, I wish I did, so that we can go out and maybe my company would help in some way. Or I could suggest listening to some music and going away on a holiday. Both these things helped me a great deal.

I wouldn’t expect you to pray, but I would pray over you. Like I did, when my cousin, with a nervous condition requiring medication from a psychiatrist, asked me to pray over her mother, who was dying of cancer. I made the sign of the cross, and then was filled with sorrow for my cousin, not her mother. “Lord, help my beloved cousin here. Make her well, Lord, otherwise who will look after her and who will look after her mother?” Somehow, from that prayer, she healed and could throw away her pills, drive a car again, and stop hiding in her home. She had agoraphobia too, you see. She was a pillar of strength for her mother and her father until the deaths of both of them. She overcame the psychological fear of making a good Confession. And that was what really healed her, she said. It is sin that gave her the illness. She goes once a week now and to daily Mass. She helps a lot of people.

At Medjugorje, I climbed a mountain called Krisevac, on barefoot, and found myself praying for a friend called Fun without knowing why. I wrote an article about it called, “My Trip, Done Just For Fun”. Everything I did for that trip, including getting bad flu and being bedridden, was all offered up for her. Three months later, I chanced to meet her and asked her about it. “Why was I praying for you? Was something wrong?” Turned out that she had an ovarian cyst that was hurting her so bad. You know, it shrank on the week I was praying for her on the mountain, and the operation was cancelled because the Xrays showed it had gone to the size of a pea.

That wasn’t the only miracle. Before this, Fun had depression so bad she was in hospital and silent. She couldn’t utter a peep to anyone. Her best school friend would visit and just sit by her and hold her hand. She had a self-image so low that her husband had to put up a room at his clinic, with her name on the door, to tell her, “Here you are, this is your office!” so that she would feel she had a job (she hadn’t) and thus feel important. It didn’t work. Her depression lasted maybe five, six years. I don’t see her often so was unaware of it.

She stopped going to Church. And didn’t go for years. And of course we were all concerned. At a time when she needed God and the Sacraments of the Church because these will give her sanctifying grace, why is she holding herself aloof? She managed to tell the visiting priest, “Father, I’ll go back when I am able. Right now I can’t.” Somehow, after my praying on the mountain, and having a cyst that shrank, she recovered her good spirits, and soon became active in her parish, editing their weekly Newsletter.

What you need, Maureen, is not advice, but for all of us to love you and pray for you. I will in the next posting.

Joan
 
So now, Maureen, I pray to our dear Lord,

“Dearest Lord, Bless Maureen.
Let her feel your love and consolation.
Dearest Jesus, you love Maureen more than anyone else on earth can love her.
At this moment in her life, she needs you. Make her whole again.
Dear Jesus, you said that you came so that we may have life and have it abundantly.
I claim from you now and hold you to your promise.
Let your Holy Spirit overshadow her to heal her and re-create her into the fullness of being.
Give Maureen the abundant life you promised, so that she may live the rest of her days in accordance to your will.
Mother Mary, visit her as you visited your cousin Elizabeth to help her.
Look at her and see her needs and draw your Son’s attention to them as you did at Cana. He will not refuse you.
Holy Patriarch St Joseph, as your Feast draws near, help Maureen journey through life, and lead her from the valley of tears into the fullness of joy and health again.
Heavenly Father, hear all the pleas we have made and grant them in Jesus name.
We thank you and glorify you and praise you, now and forever. Amen

So dear Maureen, be gentle with yourself and just wait for the Lord. He will let you know what to do and which direction to take.

May God Bless you abundantly,

Joan
 
Dear Joan,

What utter kindness on your part. It made me think
of the Spiritual Work of Mercy…to counsel the
doubtful. And what a beautiful prayer. I was most
touched by asking Our Lady to visit me as she did
her cousin Elizabeth. A beautiful prayer and image.

And, I never thought of it quite that way…Judaism
does represent to me the herald of Catholicism…
which I could flee to- before all the, [what is to
a younger part of me,] “dumb” demands get rolling.

What I could really use help on, in terms of the
prayers of others, is something so difficult to
explain and make clear.

Please picture two quarters, lying side by side.
Label one quarter Child and the other Adult/Rational.
In most people, the quarters lie side by side,
with the Child part not interferring with Adult/
Rational. In my case, the quarters “overlap” on
occassion, where rational old me becomes
“flooded” with images and fears from the Child
part. This not a good situation to be in.
The “overlap” occurs when something said or
done by another “triggers” this overlap.
Technically, I believe it is call “spontaneous
regression.”
Are you still awake with all this tedious information?

OK. So here’s what I *think *has happened.
The young child “part” is full of fear, due to trauma
unrelated to anything to do with religion.

There is, however, a 12 year old part of me that
also “checked out” in terms of maturing. And
that “part” of me is very, very angry…at clergy,
at doctrine, at having had no one around with
sufficient perception and/or intelligence to see
what was happening to this kid. [Notice I sign
my posts reen 12] That anger went underground
and became unexpressed anger = “depression”
in my case.

What I need you to pray for, Joan,
is that God will take this anger away.
I have responded, I think, with graciousness
to each post I replied to. If I need healing, it is
because of the immense hurt that I felt at
age 12 which generated such anger
.
Because that’s what anger is…the response
to a real or perceived injury. To others, my
hurt may have only been a “perceived” injury.
But I have learned, through years of therapy,
not to allow anyone to define my reality.

I’m sorry that this has been such a long post,
but I sense that your prayers might just reach
heaven. Someone said in another post that
the injuries I have sustained can only be healed
by heaven. How right that person was.

There, I’ve gotten it all out. I’ve laid my cards on
the table. With me, you get a “3-fer”. A dazed
small child, an angry 12 year old, and a gracious,
massively well-read, well-educated adult.
Now what do I do?
reen12
 
simplicity and economy of thought are just as beautiful as all the writings of all the Church Fathers combined. Reading a room of crafted theological analyis can’t hold a candle to one time, simply falling on your knees, thinking of that ray of sunshine you saw when you were six and understanding that the knowledge of the infinite God is more easily understood by the heart of a child who feels than the mind of an adult.

I said a prayer for you. a simple one. that God heals your mind and heart. it was two or three sentences. but i think those are the ones that count the most.

now i’ll sip some lemonade and wait for God to work a miracle…

it is that simple. that’s how i always do it. and God always fixes everything.
 
Dear Father Ambrose,

Have a blessed fast.

I wonder if the old monk Abba Joseph trapped the demon in his cell by loving him more than the demon hated Abba Joseph. I suspect he prayed for his enemy.

You had mentioned that St Isaac of Syria is not only wonderful and holy and that he is also disturbing. I would add very merciful. I agree with you, as such I’m sure our Lord expects us to mull his writings over a bit. I thought I would post a response from monachos a while back to a woman who had asked the meaning of the below and found it to be disturbing it seems.

(If you owe God a small coin over some matter, He is not going to accept from you a pearl in its place.)
—St Isaac of Syria

I think that if we look at some of his writings from a bit of a different perspective or relationship it is helpful. If we think about for example from the perspective of a parent it is helpful, although the degree of my understanding is very limited. Nevertheless, if a child owed you an apology over some matter and came to you with a pearl of much repentance and contrition in it’s place would you accept it? I don’t think you would accept it, you would be moved with love and I’m sure you would prefer to embrace any child who acted in such a manner.

The degree that the aforementioned is a bit different because children are very innocent, however the relationship is the primary concern. The grace of God is boundless for we can be much less than innocent and he still is most merciful and embraces us.

Matthew 5:45
“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”

It seems to me that mercy is the essence of Orthodox Christian theology. In Orthodox theology the mind is considered lower and the heart is expressed by the Orthodox fathers as the seat of the soul and divine knowledge it has always been that way. As you know, the heart is not just an emotional center as is sometimes thought, it is a place of wisdom pouring forth theology facilitated by love of God and His commandments.

We can learn much from children for they are a precious gift from God. I while ago I was speaking to a friend who has a 3 year old girl who had a nightmare. My friend explained that her daughter woke up crying upset and very concerned. She told her mother she had a terrible nightmare, because she was carrying a bunch of flowers and the little birdie flew from the sky and took one away.

Dear Maureen,

Having a very loving heart as one must when a person does things like nursing both parents surely must be a gift from God. A very merciful God given Grace I might add. Keep in mind that when you give part of your life to others in need you give from the heart which sometimes may not seem like the most logical or reasonable course of action, it exceeds such things.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Dear The Chismyster,

Yes, children have much trust.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
 
Dear Maureen:

I understand. Sometimes, you have to step back and take a look at where you are and if it is really helping you in your spiritual life. For that person who felt that Judaism was going back to six years old, you really don’t know the Jewish faith. I can talk to all the Jews who left Judaism and I’ll tell them what I have told many Christians, I am not in regret about becoming a Jew. I am glad that I did for my relationship with G-D has gotten more real and more stronger than ever.

Take your time. Pray. Talk to people- pro and con.

Shalom,
Bat-Ami
 
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