No longer a Roman Catholic

[wcknight]

I can only relate to your problem on a limited level. I had an brief but almost deadly fatal encounter with mental illness about 20 years ago. I 'm still not sure what set it off or exactly how it came about. I thought it was sleep deprevation and stress, but I can never be sure.

At the time I spent several months in therapy (once a week). Evidently it was an isolated incident as we could find nothing wrong.

It has not happened since but I try to be always careful about what and how I’m thinking. Sometimes that may not really be possible for yourself, BUT if you communicate freely and openly with your spouse and others (like this forum), they can be a good measure of how lucid or rational you are thinking at the moment.

Still, the fear I have now is that it may occur again and I may not be aware of it. During and just prior to the incident, I knew something was drastically wrong, but I couldn’t figure out what it was.

I had trouble sleeping ( I probaly had less than 4 or 5 hours of real sleep over several days), I sort of knew I needed rest but should have realized that I really had to just slow down, drop everything else, and get sleep even if I had to force myself.

The one good thing that came of it was that it brought me back to the Church. It was fear of dying and fear of the unknown that added to the stress at the time. At one point, my fear of dying was one of the concerns that kept me up at night. I may have even started to associate sleeping with dying.

My return to faith has just about eliminated that stress point in my life. The therapy did help as it gave me anther person to talk to about my fears and concerns (it an awfully expensive way to start a conversation, these forums are a lot cheaper . Personally, I thought the therapist was a little of his rocker and was way off base on some issues.

You may consider professional help briefly (as it it too expensive long term), but you really should continue to communicate with your family and friends (including those here online) openly and freely as much as you can. They can be the voice of reason, when you are not sure of your own line of thinking.

We will pray for you,

WC

 

[PeterC]

WhatIf:

I don’t fully understand why you feel you can’t keep up, when it comes to the Catholic Faith. What is “required” that you are unable to do? I pray that you are able worship in the manner that God is calling you to do. Whatever that is - I know we are all different parts of the one body of Christ, so we can not all expect to be doing the same things. We have different functions, right?

1 Cor: 12:14:19:
*14 *Now the body is not a single part, but many. *15 *If a foot should say, “Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. *16 *Or if an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. *17 *If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? *18 *But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended. *19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?

 

[wbira]

My dear Maureen,

I don’t post often but do take time to read posts on this site and I must say that yours has truly touched me.
On the one hand, I read such sorrow but on the other hand I read such love and faith and devotion.
To despair over a loss of “faith” must be agonizing and your agony is so touching but appears so “healable”. I’m sure that with so many praying for you and offering you such wonderful advice and counsel that you will begin to see and understand the simplicity and glory of God’s love for you.
I love that someone mentioned St. Francis to you. He is such a hero to me…I know how he hates hearing that!..but, it’s true nonetheless. His agony over his place with God inspires and touches me while his everlasting faith strengthens me to no end.
I would recommend reading “The Reluctant Saint” by Donald Spoto on the life of St. Francis. It’s a beautiul historical accounting of his life and ministry. I read it often and it never fails to rejuvenate me.
Be assured of my thoughts and prayers for you. I will especially pray that Our Blessed Mother will wrap you in her Heavenly Cloak and keep you close to her as she turns you toward the most beautiful face of all…that of Her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Your love of God as a 6 year old is precious love and I hope you allow yourself to love the Father as you always have but especially as you did at that age.
Peace be always with you, dear Maureen. You are loved by so many and so loved by God.

God Bless you,
Bill

 

[kayla]

Dearest Maureen,

I walked in your shoes many years ago…I left the Catholic Church, I lost the faith and grace I had,…last year the Holy Spirit brought me back after some events that took place.Grace is a gift and one must embrace it to have faith.
They go hand in hand
Pray to God to open your heart to the grace he so longs to give you and see what happens.
Much love and blessing!

 

[Malachi4U]

reen12,

Just because mathematics includes subjects like calculus and thermodynamics does not mean you have to study those subjects. If you prefer you can just leave the complex math for the advanced math adherents. In Christianity today we also have similar choices. The Catholic Church has written for 2,000 years what Christianity is. No one person can read all 2,000 years of information and expect to be expert on every detail. The Church is attempting to write down on paper what is ultimately beyond our human comprehension - the subject of God. As new insight is gained we can write it down, but not everything will be known to use - at least not in this life. Not to even mention the subject on how the meanings of words change over time and translation changes.

Is you prefer to stay with grade school math and never get beyond adding and subtracting that’s OK. If that’s all you need to know or want to know that’s your choice. Jesus said to believe, obey and follow Him. He never said to understand everything. He never commanded us to write or read the Bible either. In religion you also have a choice too, you can simply believe in Jesus and follow His gospel or you can choose to explore theology in depth. If the subject gets too involved for you to understand or gets too complex just make a choice not to explore it.

If advanced mathematics bores you, confuses you or simply turns you off that does not make mathematics wrong or false. Similarly, neither does advanced theology make the Church wrong.

Just like in mathematics today we have new proofs and formulas discovered periodically. The formulas and proofs are studied by professionals and looked at for flaws or errors. If the proof or formula is false it is kicked out. If found to be true it is added to our understanding of mathematics. The Church is similar to this with its theological understandings. We can add to our Faith, Morals and Dogma but we can never take away what God has given us like the Protestants have.

Jesus founded the Catholic Church and commanded us to be of one body and one mind of which He is the head. Just because some have chosen to believe whatever whim or fancy delights them does not change the fact that Jesus founded a Church and not a Bible or 32,000+ contradicting or various theological sects. The Church is the pillar truth. The Church gave us Sacred Scripture as a tool to help us better understand and remember God. The Church gave us the Catechism to better follow Jesus.

You do not have to be a Catholic to be a Christian. But, you do have to be a Catholic to be in the fullness of Christian Faith. You do not have to understand everything God knows to follow Him nor do you have to understand all the writings of the Church to be in His body, the Catholic Church. If the Church stopped adding to the Catechism or stopped clarifying it then we would indeed be in bad shape - or the second coming. As long as God continues to reveal Himself to us through His word, His saints, His angels or our comprehension as humans, we need to write it down which means adding to the Catechism.

I have chosen to be Catholic and remain loyal to His body, His Catholic Church, His word, His commands. I do not understand all the Church teaches or has written down in Dogma, Faith and Morals. Shux, I can’t even say a rosary without a cheat sheet for all the prayers yet. But I believe in Jesus, I believe in His one true Catholic and apostolic Church and I believe He founded His Church to bring us all closer to Him and spread His word, His glory. Stay with Jesus and in His Church.

Before you leave the Catholic Church make a list of the things she has in Dogma, Faith and Morals that you disagree with and state why. Look to see what proof she has for her insistence on those issues. Then make a list of Protestant sects (it will be a long list indeed for they agree on very little) and the Jewish religion and what they believe and why.:whacky: You may find you’re throwing the baby out with the bath water just like Luther by leaving the Church. I wondered in Protestant theology for 27 years before the Holy Spirit brought me home to His Catholic Church. The grass may look greener on the other side till you get in the pasture and find the grass dead and the green weeds flourishing.

 

[reen12]

Dear Malachi4U,

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight: I have finished my course: I have kept the faith."

That’s what I mean, I can’t keep up.

I wonder if God would fault Dickens’ Tiny Tim for
falling beside the wayside, or would He pick him up
and carry him across the finish line?

Peace to you,
reen12

 

[ahimsaman72]

reen12:

Dear Malachi4U,

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight: I have finished my course: I have kept the faith."

That’s what I mean, I can’t keep up.

I wonder if God would fault Dickens’ Tiny Tim for
falling beside the wayside, or would He pick him up
and carry him across the finish line?

Peace to you,
reen12

Dear Maureen,

Is there anything I can do for you to help? I have prayed to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob on your behalf and I believe He will pick you up and carry you across your finish line. HaShem will do the right thing. He alone can judge rightly a person’s heart and life.

From what I gather you believe in G-d and live your life accordingly. And for that He will honor you. I have personally found some relative peace in believing in G-d after my time of studying different religions and time of unbelief. Now, I have come back to the simple philosophy employed by Jews in the one true G-d. And I suspect you may find the same peace in Him as I have.

What has helped me is beginning to read the beginning of it all - in Genesis (Bereshi’t). It’s such an easy view. “When G-d began to create the heavens”. It is really so very simple. A simple belief that He exists and is available to His creation is freeing. I rest in that simple view at this point. All else is relative. You are not a weak person. I sense great strength in you. I also sense that God is with you. Do not despair.
Blessings and peace to you…

 

[reen12]

Dear ahimsaman72,

Why did I know instinctively that you would understand
what I said?
It is simple, isn’t it?
And, yes:
Sh’ma Yisrael Adonai Elohaynu Adonai Echad!
**
Maureen [reen12]
Maybe I should have my posting name changed
to Tiny Timid

 

[Sir_William]

Hi Reen,

Your condition sounds a little bit like my brothers. I wish and pray so much for him.

Anyway, think about this. Your membership in the Catholic Church does not depend on your expending a certain amount of energy (mental or physical). You are only required to do what you are able to do. You will never be expected to bear a cross that is too heavy for you. God does not set expectations of his children that are beyond them.

I sense that you are pushing yourself too hard, expecting too much of yourself.

Most of us need to work harder at loving Christ (especially in those around us). I think you need to let those around you love you more. It’s obvious to me that you have tried very hard to love God, let him love you back for a while.

I may be totally wrong and I’m sure I’ll hear about it if I am, but it’s a thought anyway.

 

[reen12]

Dear Sir William,

Thank you for your kind words

I’ve been waiting for someone to post to whom I
could address the following question, confident
that I would receive an understanding hearing,
and for whom my question would not constitute
a challenge, but rather a deep cry of a
heart in the wilderness.
Sir William, how, how can I accept Jesus
talking about a lake of fire, everlasting flames.
To me, that is insane. Period.
No sane human being would condemn anyone
to that, no matter what.
The trouble is, it is not that I have not
read the words of Jesus concerning hell…I have
pondered them for decades, and I have
never been able to overcome the revulsion
they evoked in me as a child and still
evoke in me.
Have you ever thought about people in a
burn unit in a hospital? The dreadful
agony they must experience in having
dressings changed, as humans work to
relieve their suffering?
This is Justice? An everlasting lake of
fire?
I am hopeful of a reply from you,
reen12

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

reen12:

This is Justice? An everlasting lake of
fire?

Dear Maureen,
Can I jump in?

Have a read through “The River of Fire.”

It’s not at all what you might think.

It offers the Orthodox approach to heaven and hell. I guarantee it will change your thinking forever. It also shows that in some ways the Orthodox and the Western Churches live in different universes.

THE RIVER OF FIRE
by Alexander Kalomiros
web.ukonline.co.uk/pbrooke/p&t/fire

PS: Apologies to any Catholic readers who may be offended by this essay. The author would definitely not be invited to any ecumenical gatherings.

 

[reen12]

Dear Fr. Ambrose,

You’ve got it, Father. I will make haste to read
same.

[Maybe you will understand that I found myself
on an Eastern philosophy site today, explaining Jesus as
The Way, [ontologically], not a mere alternate
“Path” as in the Eastern the “Way.”
Someone said that krishna had the same
root as the word Christ? That didn’t sound
correct to me. I’ll have to look it up.

Also had to convey the concept of the Word, the other day,
and I described Christ as Logos as the “informing
principle of creation”. Was that accurate?
I was thinking of Aristotle.

I let them know that christ=greek christos=
the Anointed as in The Anoited of God.
Didn’t get into the term Messiah, because I
didn’t want to wear out my welcome. Some
very well read people on that site, which gives
me an intellectual workout when I visit there.
I may have my own difficulties, but I wanted to
make sure this was understood.
I get the feeling that I’m supposed to check
the square of opposition at the door, so to
speak, and that Aristotle’s Metaphysics
might be considered heresy.

In-house difficulties are one thing; this is
something different entirely. {By in-house,
I mean Judeo-Christian.]
God bless,
Maureen [reen12]

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Fr Ambrose:

It offers the Orthodox approach to heaven and hell. I guarantee it will change your thinking forever. It also shows that in some ways the Orthodox and the Western Churches live in different universes.
THE RIVER OF FIRE
by Alexander Kalomirosweb.ukonline.co.uk/pbrooke/p&t/fire

PS: Apologies to any Catholic readers who may be offended by this essay. The author would definitely not be invited to any ecumenical gatherings.

I dont really believe that this is as you or he says.Thats not what the Orthodox really believe. They are in the same boat as the West. It was written in 1980 in Seattle, doomed from the start. They fail to see the reality in whos talking and where they are and what year. Thats a common writing style I have been noticing, especially in a few hard core Traditionalist writings, they try to overwhelm you with info that seems genuine, but its pretty clear that there is an agenda. In short it was a knife in the side of the CC and a blue ribbon for the Orthodox Church, it didnt have to be true, it was aimed at children and the unsuspecting. It actually contains a subtle evil message to it. The truth is nobody understands God the way that guy pretends to.

That guy is a nothing, he tries to play the “you guys are way off, but we hold the secrets to life” card and it doesnt work. Im not saying that in depth though doesnt exist in that subject, Im just saying its too modern day cut and paste theology. The Orthodox parading outside of their respective countries proves that, the problem is most of them cant even see it.

Its pretty easy to see through when he pushed not only the west out of the picture, but when he “proved” the Jews didnt know half as much as he did about God that was the icing to me. This is a modern day style of propaganda. For anyone who got scared reading it dont worry its mostly smoke and mirrors.

 

[twf]

Father, I certainly hope you are not endorsing the view of that essay! He has a completely and utterly disgustingly distorted view of Western theology. The Catholic Church, for anyone who cares to look, clearly teaches that man himself chooses hell.

CCC#1033
We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neigbour or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” [1 Jn 3:14-15] Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. [Mt. 25:31-46] To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of **definitive self-exclusion from ** our communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.
(Emphasis added).

Also, as relevent to that article, I will post the following paragraphs:

CCC#403
Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination toward evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul.” [Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1512). Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed poeresonal sin. [Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1514).

404
How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” [St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4, 1). By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received origianl holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a *personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. [Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1511-1512). It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed”—a state and not an act.

405
Although it is proper to each individual, [Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513] original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it; subject to ignorance, suffering, and the domision of death; and inclined to sin—an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence.” Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

I don’t think the difference is huge. It seems that this transmission of original sin is, more or less, death, in Catholic teaching as well.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Catholic Dude:

I

“But as many as depart from God by their own choice, He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness,… It is not, however, that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of darkness.” St. Irenaeus *Against Heresies * *5. 27:2. *

“But others shun the light and separate themselves from God…” *Ibid., 5. 28:1. *

“For God made not death, neither hath He pleasure in the destruction of the living; for He created aIl things that they might have their being, and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of Hades upon the earth.” Wisdom of Solomon 1:13-14. “For God created man to be immortal and made him to be an image of His own eternity. Nevertheless, through envy of the devil came death into the world.” *Wisdom of Solomon 2:23-24. *

Since God is good, whatever He does, He does for man’s sake. But whatever man does, he does for his own sake, both what is good and what is evil." *Philokalia, vol. 1, chap. 121, St. Anthony the Great. *

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

twf:

Father, I certainly hope you are not endorsing the view of that essay! He has a completely and utterly disgustingly distorted view of Western theology.

What he has in mind is the Anselmian doctrine of the Atonement - that the justice of God the Father was offended by the sin of Adam and to make recompense He required the sacrifice of the Second Person of the Trinity. This doctrine is unknown in Orthodoxy (it was developed after the SChism between the Churches) and it evokes in us pretty much the same feelings of disgust as you mention. Most Orthodox don’t know of the Catholic Atonement doctrine, mercifully.

 

[Ahimsa]

Core part of the “Fire” essay:

As a result, Origen thought that if we are to remain Christians, if we are to continue to believe that God is really good, we must believe that hell is not eternal, but will have an end, in spite of all that is written in the Holy Scriptures and of what the Church believes. This is the fatal, perfectly logical conclusion. If God is the cause of hell, hell must have an end, or else God is an evil God.

        Origen, and all rationalists who are like him, was not able to understand that the acceptance or the rejection of God's grace depends entirely on the rational creatures; that God, like the sun, never stops shining on good or wicked alike; that rational creatures are, however, entirely free to accept or reject this grace and love; and that God in His genuine love does not force His creatures to accept Him, but respects absolutely their free decision.

---

All this is well and good, but I think what Reen was objecting to was not the fact that humans choose separation from God during their earthly lives, but the idea that, somehow, there is a point in time when God says, essentially, “Too late. You had your chance. Now that you’ve made your decision to separate yourself from me, you can no longer return into my Love. The universe is structured so that once you enter hell, you may never come out, even if you really want to.”

I think Reen’s disagreement was not with the idea that humans are “sent” to hell, but rather that the human ability to make a free choice – a characteristic of humanity – is seemingly revoked after a brief lifespan of, what, 70, to 100 years of life on earth.

I can imagine someone choosing separation from God forever, if they so choose; but I don’t see how one can posit that God, as Love, can say, “Too late. You can’t come home again if you miss the 10 p.m. curfew.”

God is Justice, and one could argue that God’s patience has a limit. I would counter with the father of the prodigal son, who didn’t seem to ever run out of patience for his son.

 

[Lost_Found]

Hello Maureen,

First I apologize, it’s so simple for me to give “advice”!

Relax and let God be God for a while. Let Him figure it all out. Let Him carry it. Throw up your arms and say “You know what, if You’re so smart You figure it out!” Our little pea-brains churn away like a mouse on a wheel beside His. He will let you know and see His way.

Nobody else has got it all figured out you know. They stay sane by only asking so far.

And just look at all these posts, how tiny Timid is able to bring so much Good out of people!

 

[reen12]

Good morning, Lost&Found,

What a great post! Yes, I have been amazed at
the beauty of some of the responses, the
kind acceptance of TinyTimid as she peeks out
to see if she’s gonna get stomped on.

It’s true, don’t you think, that “God writes straight
with crooked lines.” He takes my confusion, my
anger, my fear and transfigures it into beauty
through the posts here.

I try to let God just carry me, but sometimes I
look over the crook of His elbow to the hard
rock beneath, fearful that He might drop me.
A big prayer for you, today, Lost&Found.
reen12

 

[Lost_Found]

Okay TinyTimid,

Stompers stomp, so just let them stomp if that’s what they feel they need to do. In the meantime, the Lord is watching over you and is going to take care of you!

A big thank you for the prayer, I get the feeling yours are pretty powerful.