No more Tridentine Masses at my parish

[Genesis315]

Obedience & submission are wonderful attributes UNLESS we give our obedience to people who are asking us to indulge in a type of worship that we do not believe is the best that we, as Catholics, can give to God.

This is too subjective. People who use liturgical dancers also think that it is a better form of worship than would be given if they worshipped according to established norms. Such a subjective principle would lead to chaos (as we’ve seen by people using that principle to justify all sorts of liturgical abuses).

The proper reasoning would be that a higher authority trumps a lower when there are conflicting directives. However, “in your face” disobedience is probably not the best course–the best course seems to be the one suggested by yourself and others and appeal to such a higher authority

 

[bkovacs]

One of the big problems is that there are way to many parishinors (9000) for one church. I also spoke to a priest today at a local Catholic shop and asked him to pick up a Baronious press missal. He told me that he had plenty originals at home, and wanted nothing to do with the extra ordinary form, and that if the Pope showed up he wouldn’t attend. Obviously he was older, from that post Vatican 2 crowd. All he said was that the most important thing was that the body and blood was Christ and he is present. Who cares about the rest. If that’s the mentality then you could have a Mass in a field and it’s fine. Just my observations from the Philadelphia Archdiocese.

 

[Captain_Mike]

a general observation, and this quote is meant to give an example of what I mean, rather than to specifically address the poster.

if, in general, participation in the TLM is sought as a means of protesting against the authority of one’s bishop and pastor, if participation in the TLM, for me, is an expression of my negative opinion of my bishop or pastor, and a visible means of protest against their authority, then my participation in TLM is wrong for me, spiritually dangerous, undertaken for base motives and should be abandoned until such time as I can return to the spirit of obedience and humility. If I am seeking a TLM for my personal piety and reverence for the Mass, that is a good thing. If I am seeking it for my personal preference and pleasure, and in a spirit of disobedience, that is an evil and I must seek spiritual direction to return to obedience and submission to due authority.

Puzzleannie, no one is participating in the extraordinary form of The Holy Mass at St. Peter Chanel because they are protesting the authority of the pastor or the Bishop. We are participating because we appreciate this expression of the Holy Mass and we have the rights to do so given by the Vicar of Christ. I frankly can’t see anyone going to a extraordinary form of the Holy Masss that is union with The Holy Father who is going out of protest to authority of a pastor or bishop. Infact there isn’t any “protest” considered if you participate in the extraordinary form, because The Holy Father gave the order in the Motu Proprio. All Bishop and priests are to obey the order. No priests is forced to offer this form of the Holy Mass if he doesn’t want to and no lay person is forced to participate in this form. The Holy Father is very generous and kind. Those who are not kind or generous are those Bishops and pastors who have an agenda to squash extraordinary form by intimidation of priests and layfaithful who enjoy this legitimate form of worship to God. My question I have is “Why all the fuss and intimidation and all, especially if you claim to be in union with the Holy Father?” Iam going to excercise my rights that the Holy Father has given. Go to the local ordinary, then if need be to the Ecclesia Dei Commission at the Vatican. Isn’t that why we have Bishops and especially the Ecclesia Dei Commission at the Vatican.

 

[Captain_Mike]

Fr. Z’s blog 'What does the Prayer Really say" has posted an email on the situation at St. Peter Chanel. wdtprs.com/blog/2008/02/omvs-cancel-a-tlm-in-california/

 

[Brother_John]

Puzzleannie, no one is participating in the extraordinary form of The Holy Mass at St. Peter Chanel because they are protesting the authority of the pastor or the Bishop. We are participating because we appreciate this expression of the Holy Mass and we have the rights to do so given by the Vicar of Christ. I frankly can’t see anyone going to a extraordinary form of the Holy Masss that is union with The Holy Father who is going out of protest to authority of a pastor or bishop. Infact there isn’t any “protest” considered if you participate in the extraordinary form, because The Holy Father gave the order in the Motu Proprio. All Bishop and priests are to obey the order. No priests is forced to offer this form of the Holy Mass if he doesn’t want to and no lay person is forced to participate in this form. The Holy Father is very generous and kind. Those who are not kind or generous are those Bishops and pastors who have an agenda to squash extraordinary form by intimidation of priests and layfaithful who enjoy this legitimate form of worship to God. My question I have is “Why all the fuss and intimidation and all, especially if you claim to be in union with the Holy Father?” Iam going to excercise my rights that the Holy Father has given. Go to the local ordinary, then if need be to the Ecclesia Dei Commission at the Vatican. Isn’t that why we have Bishops and especially the Ecclesia Dei Commission at the Vatican.

I would agree with both of you…sorta.

You are basing your position on your personal experience, a good thing. But if you read many of the posts on this forum, you will get a definite “feel”, that hankerin’ for the TLM for some, is due in part, to an anti-Vatican II backlash.

I keep reminding myself, as does my pastor when I show him threads on this forum, that the opinions posted here are not neccessarily representative of The Catholic Church, Mainstream Catholicism, or even the opinion of the majority of Catholics, lay OR clergy.

They are simply the opinions of those who choose to spend time here

 

[James0235]

I would agree with both of you…sorta.

You are basing your position on your personal experience, a good thing. But if you read many of the posts on this forum, you will get a definite “feel”, that hankerin’ for the TLM for some, is due in part, to an anti-Vatican II backlash.

I don’t think you are right. There is not so much an anti-Vatican II backlash as there is an anti-Spirit of Vatican II backlash.

Just keeping the examples to the topic of this thread - the Mass - we see Vatican II calling for Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony as the primary music in the Mass. It mentioned nothing about tearing out altar rails or destroying high altars - relics inside and all. Vatican II made it clear that Latin should have pride of place in the Liturgy with the use of the vernacular languages as well.

Now, the Spirit of Vatican II is quite different. I have lost count of the number of priests who have told me that Vatican II called for the removal of the altar rails, the removal of the high altars, the abolition of Latin, the replacement of Gregorian Chant with folk music, “according to Vatican II we are not supposed to use incense very often”, etc.

It is the so-called “Spirit of Vatican II” that people hate. Vatican II, in it’s document on the Liturgy - Sacrosanctum Concilium - actually called for the very things that most people who love the TLM enjoy.

I keep reminding myself, as does my pastor when I show him threads on this forum, that the opinions posted here are not neccessarily representative of The Catholic Church, Mainstream Catholicism, or even the opinion of the majority of Catholics, lay OR clergy.

They are simply the opinions of those who choose to spend time here

Of course the opinions here are not representative of Catholicism in general. Remember, the majority of American Catholics do not attend Mass regularly. And the majority hold incorrect (i.e. heretical) beliefs on the Eucharist.

James

 

[Captain_Mike]

I would agree with both of you…sorta.

You are basing your position on your personal experience, a good thing. But if you read many of the posts on this forum, you will get a definite “feel”, that hankerin’ for the TLM for some, is due in part, to an anti-Vatican II backlash.

I keep reminding myself, as does my pastor when I show him threads on this forum, that the opinions posted here are not neccessarily representative of The Catholic Church, Mainstream Catholicism, or even the opinion of the majority of Catholics, lay OR clergy.

They are simply the opinions of those who choose to spend time here

Brother John, I don’t let myself get caught up with those you say are"hankering" or anti-VaticanII . I for one am not anti Vatican II and the ones in my parish are not anti Vatican II. I wouldn’t let those who appear against Vatican II keep you away from learning or appreciating the extraordinary form of the Holy Mass or be suspicious of those who participate in this form. I think personally it is waist of time and causing a spirit of division in the Church. The Holy Father has given the Motu Proprio that should be a good enough reason to not be suspcious or dwell on those who are appearing to be anti VaticanII. Especially, you shouldn’t be spreading this sorta of suspicion to your pastor at your parish.The extraordinary form of the Holy Mass is a legitimate form of worship. The Holy Father has spoken.

 

[bkovacs]

I don’t think you are right. There is not so much an anti-Vatican II backlash as there is an anti-Spirit of Vatican II backlash.

Just keeping the examples to the topic of this thread - the Mass - we see Vatican II calling for Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony as the primary music in the Mass. It mentioned nothing about tearing out altar rails or destroying high altars - relics inside and all. Vatican II made it clear that Latin should have pride of place in the Liturgy with the use of the vernacular languages as well.

Now, the Spirit of Vatican II is quite different. I have lost count of the number of priests who have told me that Vatican II called for the removal of the altar rails, the removal of the high altars, the abolition of Latin, the replacement of Gregorian Chant with folk music, “according to Vatican II we are not supposed to use incense very often”, etc.

It is the so-called “Spirit of Vatican II” that people hate. Vatican II, in it’s document on the Liturgy - Sacrosanctum Concilium - actually called for the very things that most people who love the TLM enjoy.

Of course the opinions here are not representative of Catholicism in general. Remember, the majority of American Catholics do not attend Mass regularly. And the majority hold incorrect (i.e. heretical) beliefs on the Eucharist.

James

I couldn’t agree more!. But unfortunately some of us now have to look East to fill our spiritual needs. This of course is beneficial, since we can learn to appreciate what other orthodox Christians believe and hold in their hearts. And unlike Hagia Sophia. These liberal Romans will not destroy Orthodox Christianity and the Divine Liturgy!.

 

[Brother_John]

Especially, you shouldn’t be spreading this sorta of suspicion to your pastor at your parish.

I don’t think I could “spread” much to MY pastor

He has more degrees in philosophy and psychology hanging on his wall than I have fingers.

I have gone to him with questions that have arisen pertaining to my participation on this forum. He told me to enjoy it, but not to get too wrapped up in it, as the cross section of posters on this forum would not represent a cross section of practical Catholics today.

 

[Captain_Mike]

Here is the latest news on what is happening at St.Peter Chanel here is the link to Fr. Z.'s blog “What Does The Prayer Really Say”
wdtprs.com/blog/2008/02/omv-and-sj-superiors-line-up-against-pope-benedict-and summorum-pontificum/

 

[Captain_Mike]

Here is the link : wdtprs.com/blog/2008/02/omv-and-sj-superiors-line-up-against-pope-benedict-and-summorum-pontificum/

 

[bkovacs]

I don’t think I could “spread” much to MY pastor

He has more degrees in philosophy and psychology hanging on his wall than I have fingers.

I have gone to him with questions that have arisen pertaining to my participation on this forum. He told me to enjoy it, but not to get too wrapped up in it, as the cross section of posters on this forum would not represent a cross section of practical Catholics today.

I think your pastor should be a “doctor” instead of a priest. Ask him to show you his theology degrees. Ask him what he thinks of the current Pope and is he obedient to his desires. Seems like he has more pride in his philosophy and psychology degrees than his priesthood. He probably should rethink his vocation!.

 

[CradleCath]

Here is the link : wdtprs.com/blog/2008/02/omv-and-sj-superiors-line-up-against-pope-benedict-and-summorum-pontificum/

I don’t know about the order that serves your parish, but I DO know that the Jesuits are pretty much out of hand. Pope Benedict came down pretty hard on them this month:

Remember 4th Vow of Obedience, Pope urges Jesuits **
Vatican, Feb. 21, 2008 (CWNews.com) - Pope Benedict XVI gave the world’s Jesuits a pointed reminder of their oath of fidelity, **during a February 21 audience with participants in the 35th general congregation of the Society of Jesus.

Meeting with the Jesuit leaders as they concluded their general congregation-- at which they had elected a new superior general, Father Adolfo Nicolas-- the Holy Father stressed that the Jesuit order today should act “in full fidelity to the original charism.”

That original charism, the Pope continued, is marked by **devotion and obedience to the Church and the Roman Pontiff; **he reminded the Jesuit leaders of St. Ignatius’ demand that his followers should always **work “with the Church and in the Church.” **
Preserving harmony with the Church, Pope Benedict continued, is a particularly important task today, at a time when there is a “confusion of messages” in society on many fundamental issues. He exhorted the Jesuits to seek “that harmony with the magisterium that avoids causing confusion and uncertainty among the People of God.” **All members of the Society of Jesus, he said, should “adhere completely to the Word of God as well as to the magisterium’s charge of conserving the truth and unity of Catholic doctrine in its entirety.” **
“I well understand that this is a particularly delicate and troublesome issue for you and for many of your colleagues,” the Pope told the Jesuit officials. Nevertheless he said that the Jesuit order must tackle the challenge and "regain a fuller understanding of your distinctive ‘fourth vow’ of obedience to the Successor of Peter

websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/apologia/vpost?id=2523222

If the Jesuits think that they can simply “do their own thing” with this Pope, they are sadly mistaken.

 

[Brother_John]

I think your pastor should be a “doctor” instead of a priest. Ask him to show you his theology degrees. Ask him what he thinks of the current Pope and is he obedient to his desires. Seems like he has more pride in his philosophy and psychology degrees than his priesthood. He probably should rethink his vocation!.

And, maybe you should go to confession for being such a self-righteous, arrogant, jerk.

Who at the Vatican charged you with sitting in judgement over priests?

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t think you are right. There is not so much an anti-Vatican II backlash as there is an anti-Spirit of Vatican II backlash.

Just keeping the examples to the topic of this thread - the Mass - we see Vatican II calling for Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony as the primary music in the Mass. It mentioned nothing about tearing out altar rails or destroying high altars - relics inside and all. Vatican II made it clear that Latin should have pride of place in the Liturgy with the use of the vernacular languages as well.

Now, the Spirit of Vatican II is quite different. I have lost count of the number of priests who have told me that Vatican II called for the removal of the altar rails, the removal of the high altars, the abolition of Latin, the replacement of Gregorian Chant with folk music, “according to Vatican II we are not supposed to use incense very often”, etc.

It is the so-called “Spirit of Vatican II” that people hate. Vatican II, in it’s document on the Liturgy - Sacrosanctum Concilium - actually called for the very things that most people who love the TLM enjoy.

Of course the opinions here are not representative of Catholicism in general. Remember, the majority of American Catholics do not attend Mass regularly. And the majority hold incorrect (i.e. heretical) beliefs on the Eucharist.

James

Then I must be in the minority. I wish every parish would offer one TLM while keeping the Novus Ordo for the generation that grew up on that. There is no need to get rid of either one.

 

[Brother_John]

There is no need to get rid of either one.

Careful here ! Some traditionalists will call for your hide

 

[goofyjim]

Careful here ! Some traditionalists will call for your hide

I do not fear. The Pope is not trying to do away with the Novus Ordo. He is just trying to reunite some that have left due to the fallout from Vatican II. He states quite clearly that we can keep both.

 

[bkovacs]

And, maybe you should go to confession for being such a self-righteous, arrogant, jerk.

Who at the Vatican charged you with sitting in judgement over priests?

And confess what?. That I’m just defending what I consider tradition. That I’m not a practical Catholic. That I believe many priests today forget tradition and give in to secularization. I’m may be just as arrogant as those priests who wouldn’t give the time of day to the TLM or the desires of traditional Catholics . Maybe I should just leave the Catholic Church completely for being such a jerk, and move on to the Second Rome for good. Take Care!. and God Bless!

 

[goofyjim]

And confess what?. That I’m just defending what I consider tradition. That I’m not a practical Catholic. That I believe many priests today forget tradition and give in to secularization. I’m may be just as arrogant as those priests who wouldn’t give the time of day to the TLM or the desires of traditional Catholics . Maybe I should just leave the Catholic Church completely for being such a jerk, and move on to the Second Rome for good. Take Care!. and God Bless!

Don’t leave. We must respect those who want to keep the TLM around but we also must respect those who prefer the Novus Ordo. We can have both.

 

[bkovacs]

Don’t leave. We must respect those who want to keep the TLM around but we also must respect those who prefer the Novus Ordo. We can have both.

Tell that to the parishes in the Philadelphia Archdiocese. The majority of them have no interest whatsoever in the TLM or Traditionalists. St Phillips Orthodox Church is but 15 minutes away for me. The nearest TLM, is @ 45 miles one way and at 2:00pm. Forget that!. I work graveyard shift as a aircraft inspector, and going to the Divine Liturgy at 10:00am is fine, its on the way home. 2:00pm is out of the question or sitting through a guitar Mass or Mass with people trying to sing out loud, with no incense, a couple of candles and lay people giving out communion does nothing for me spiritually.