No Mortal Sin?

[Walking_Home]

That verse didn’t say “will not be held accountable by God”, it said “no condemnaton to them which are in Christ Jesus.”

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Saying “no condemnation” also means —they will not be held accountable.

So what are you getting at with that verse.

 

[holy_roamer]

I knew this was coming in response to what I posted. However, when we state this we are, in a way, speaking out of both sides of our mouths.

One side - We cannot judge the state of another’s soul, only God can do that

The other side - A soul in a state of mortal sin (which we do seem to judge) when life ends, goes to hell.

I’m not trying to be difficult. Declaring what is and what is not mortal sin, when all my family and friends fall into this catagory, is more then a little distressing. It’s enough to cause one to seriously question his faith.

Actually, it appears the faithful protestant has a higher probability for salvation then the uninformed Catholic. Given the responses thus far. When I cam back to the faith and brought my entire family with me, I was torn on just where to go. I sometimes feel I did them a grave misjustice by introducing them to Catholicism. If the Catholic misses mass on sunday he/she is in mortal sin. If the faithful protestant never goes to mass his/her soul is less culpable to this sin.

Something is wrong.

Both my wife and I came from extremely large Catholic families, and I can tell you for a fact, that most of our modern Catholics relatives pick the Church laws that fit best into their lifestyle.

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[Mijoy2]

To say in this day and age that Catholics are ignorant of the fact that A) Abortion is going against what the Church teaches,
B) Not going to Mass on Sunday
C) Insert any Church teaching here.
Is not a mortal sin, that is total and pure hogwash. They don’t want to admit they know so they can do their own thing, but they are not fooling anyone especially not God.

This is not the case at all. I find, often, in these forums that when one questions the teachings of the church out of great distress for others, people assume they are doing so out of defiance FOR themselves.

If I didn’t have any loved ones who fell into these catagories I suppose I wouldn’t distress. It would be much easier for me to sit on my high horse and preach to the crowd. I find it terrbly difficult to look into the eyes of those I love so dearly while in the back of my mind I hear my church telling me thier soul is dead.

 

[bilop]

Which is what I stated earlier. It would be very hard to claim ignorance of “the Big Ten” or the cultural equivalent. It is the sins that don’t get front billing that people can be ignorant of.

It is also hard for a Catholic, nominal or otherwise, to claim they don’t know that the Church teaches against fornication, artificial birth control, and teaches you must attend Church on Sunday. Remember, you don’t have to agree to have full knowledge, just know what the Church teaches.

I’m somewhat surprised no one has brought up the third qualification a sin must posses to be mortal, Full consent of the Will.
This one is even more murky and grey than number two. There are even cases where the natural laws are broken, but the sin is not mortal because of this. Classifying sin is far less black and white than many people realize.

Most of the major sins we discuss are impossible to commit without full consent of the will. You can’t murder w/o consent, you can’t accidently commit adultery. I think this is much more an issue, and a very valid point, for more subtle sins and sins of the mind, e.g. Lust, Anger, jealousy.

In the end, the decision to hold someone accountable belongs to Christ, though the ministry of the Church, not to us. We will never know all the details surrounding a sin, and cannot make a judgement without them.

Yes, but we need to give them proper guidance and speak the truth. To confirm another in his sin is to sin ourselves.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

God Bless

 

[Walking_Home]

This is not the case at all. I find, often, in these forums that when one questions the teachings of the church out of great distress for others, people assume they are doing so out of defiance FOR themselves.

If I didn’t have any loved ones who fell into these catagories I suppose I wouldn’t distress. It would be much easier for me to sit on my high horse and preach to the crowd. I find it terrbly difficult to look into the eyes of those I love so dearly while in the back of my mind I hear my church telling me thier soul is dead.

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I too have relatives in similar situations—yet I acknowledge that they are in such situations —out of their own free will.

 

[holy_roamer]

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Saying “no condemnation” also means —they will not be held accountable.

So what are you getting at with that verse.

You will have to read the preceding chapter then Romans Chapter Eight will make sence. Romans Chapter Seven is about the Law and Sin and The struggle against Sin. That is when Paul drops the bomb in verse one of Chapter Eight.

Reading on further in Chapter Eight my favorite verses is, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:16) I usually think of that verse when I pray in the Spirit.

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[Mijoy2]

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I too have relatives in similar situations—yet I acknowledge that they are in such situations —out of their own free will.

Well it ais ALL of my relatives and friends, not some. I guess I don’t hang with as holy a crowd as the people who frequent these forums.

 

[Thursday1]

bilop:

It is also hard for a Catholic, nominal or otherwise, to claim they don’t know that the Church teaches against fornication, artificial birth control, and teaches you must attend Church on Sunday. Remember, you don’t have to agree to have full knowledge, just know what the Church teaches.
Most of the major sins we discuss are impossible to commit without full consent of the will. You can’t murder w/o consent, you can’t accidently commit adultery. I think this is much more an issue, and a very valid point, for more subtle sins and sins of the mind, e.g. Lust, Anger, jealousy.
Yes, but we need to give them proper guidance and speak the truth. To confirm another in his sin is to sin ourselves.

The white noise that society creates can and does block out the message of the Church many times. Or, it can be twisted by someone in authority, in which case the sinner would not be culpable, but the person in authority would be.

Full consent of the will is more than just deciding to do something. It is deciding to do something with your whole being. Many things can make that impossible. Addiction, coercion, depression, ect. The person must freely decide to take the action.
I do not think we should let someone remain in ignorance, for we are called to bring the gospel to every nation. However, I think we should be slower to decide who is in Hell/ going to Hell than we sometimes are.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home​

Saying “no condemnation” also means —they will not be held accountable.

So what are you getting at with that verse.

You will have to read the preceding chapter then Romans Chapter Eight will make sence. Romans Chapter Seven is about the Law and Sin and The struggle against Sin. That is when Paul drops the bomb in verse one of Chapter Eight.

Reading on further in Chapter Eight my favorite verses is, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:16) I usually think of that verse when I pray in the Spirit.

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holy_roamer—you posted that one section of scripture–and did not included the others.

Strait question. — I asked —what you meant by that scripture.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
I too have relatives in similar situations—yet I acknowledge that they are in such situations —out of their own free will.

Well it ais ALL of my relatives and friends, not some. I guess I don’t hang with as holy a crowd as the people who frequent these forums.

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I am truly sorry to hear that. I believe many – if not most or all of us have relatives and/or friends, aquaintances, who are in similar situations—so this really is not about hanging out with a “holy crowd”.

 

[fix]

Full consent of the will is more than just deciding to do something. It is deciding to do something with your whole being.

Not sure what you mean here? Does the Church teach this?

 

[palmas85]

You made no distinction between venial and mortal sin in your post. You simply said we love to sin, and I agree. I disagree that we all know when a sin is grave matter. A venial sin is an affront to God, but not one that cuts you off from His Grace.

I brought up children because many people have not progressed beyond a childlike notion of life. Most people will not bother to ask themselves hard questions like “Am I living a good life?” Why do you think Socrates was put to death? He was asking people to question. For the most part, humans haven’t grown much beyond what we were in Athens.

I know I commit mortal sins, but I’m not a good representative of the average human (an INTP on the personality scale if you must know). I will reiterate, there is no way to “accidentally” commit a mortal sin. It does not require full knowledge, only the angels had that (hence Lucifer’s inability to repent), but it requires knowledge of the gravity of the sin. If you asked 100 people out on the street to tell you the Church’s teaching on ABC, how many people would be able to give you a correct answer? Would you damn the ones who honestly didn’t know?
Also, thank you for damning me to Hell. I’m glad you aren’t God, cause if you were Heaven would be a lonely place.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

I’m interested, do you consider most sins societal in nature or personal?

 

[fix]

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This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

So, it is not only what knowledge, but how much effort we used to gain that knowledge.

 

[Writer]

Not at all.

I second that… I’d say a little more, but it just so happens that I recently submitted an article to a Catholic mag on the nature of sin and salvation, so I am going to remain quiet–if I can keep the willpower.

 

[palmas85]

You made no distinction between venial and mortal sin in your post. You simply said we love to sin, and I agree. I disagree that we all know when a sin is grave matter. A venial sin is an affront to God, but not one that cuts you off from His Grace.

I brought up children because many people have not progressed beyond a childlike notion of life. Most people will not bother to ask themselves hard questions like “Am I living a good life?” Why do you think Socrates was put to death? He was asking people to question. For the most part, humans haven’t grown much beyond what we were in Athens.

I know I commit mortal sins, but I’m not a good representative of the average human (an INTP on the personality scale if you must know). I will reiterate, there is no way to “accidentally” commit a mortal sin. It does not require full knowledge, only the angels had that (hence Lucifer’s inability to repent), but it requires knowledge of the gravity of the sin. If you asked 100 people out on the street to tell you the Church’s teaching on ABC, how many people would be able to give you a correct answer? Would you damn the ones who honestly didn’t know?
Also, thank you for damning me to Hell. I’m glad you aren’t God, cause if you were Heaven would be a lonely place.

This is a straw man, you already stated she knows she will be excommunicated, hence she knows the gravity of the sin. I am not arguing for a person’s conscious being the final arbiter (as you seem to think I am), but that the ignorant cannot commit a mortal sin according to the Church.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

As I recall, a venial sin, while not cutting one off completely from grace does offend God, does add to the temporal punishment due and can and does lead to mortal sin.

The fact that many people are immature does not excuse them from their obligations and responsibilities as adults and I believe that includes the responsibilities of religion. While many people don’t agree with the churches teaching on many things, using as you call them ABC, for example, they more than likely certainly know about them and consciously choose to ignore them. Choosing to ignore an uncomfortable teaching or as many do these days, pull up scriptural references to support their personal interpretation does not ijn any way make their views valid.

As far as those ignorant of Gods and the Churches law, I agree. Those who are **TRULY **ignorant are OK, but I will guarantee you that they are few and far between.

I’m interested, do you view sin as being primarily societal or more personal in nature?

 

[Thursday1]

Not sure what you mean here? Does the Church teach this?

The Church teaches that the sin is more than just the action. Say someone has your loved one held hostage, and says they will let them go if you steal a certain item for them. You steal the item, give it to the person, and they let your loved one go. Did you commit a mortal sin? The Church says no, because you did not do it with the full consent of the will. Let’s analyze it.

1. Is it a grave matter? Yes, stealing is gravely wrong.
2. Do you have knowledge of the gravity? Yes, almost everyone knows stealing is wrong.
3. Do you give it the full consent of the will? No, you are being coerced into the sin by another. You are unable to give your full consent to it.
   Does that mean stealing is a virtue in this case? No, it is still a sin, a grave sin even, but you are not culpable for the action.

A more common example is someone who is addicted. They are no longer able to give their full consent, the addiction is, for lack of a better word, coercing them.

palmas85:

I’m interested, do you view sin as being primarily societal or more personal in nature?

It depends on the sin. Everyone has personal sins, but I believe there are sins that society as a whole commits. Whether we should view it as a group of personal sins, or one societal sin, I don’t know. In the Gospels, Christ deals with those who didn’t feed Him all at once, and reminds us we are our brother’s keeper. So to some extent all sins are personal, but certain ones share the culpability with a larger group.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Addicts that overdose burn in Hell!

Ask any addict if they believe there is a Hell and they’ll tell you they know there is.

How is it that they know but but the no culpability excuse crowd doesn’t know?

And remember–even if the Last sin they committ isn’t mortal because they did not give full consent of the will–don’t tell me that the first time they ever did the drug that they weren’t able to give full consent of the will.

If that sin wasn’t absolved what happened many “not totaly culpable” sins later doesn’t make any difference!

See Satan Laughs when people say oh I couldn’t really help it–the devil Made me do it–I didn’t give my full consent of will because he made me do it–therefore I will not be judged!

Sell that to someone dumb enough to believe it–it won’t sell here!

 

[Nichevo]

Addicts that overdose burn in Hell!

Ask any addict if they believe there is a Hell and they’ll tell you they know there is.

How is it that they know but but the no culpability excuse crowd doesn’t know?

And remember–even if the Last sin they committ isn’t mortal because they did not give full consent of the will–don’t tell me that the first time they ever did the drug that they weren’t able to give full consent of the will.

If that sin wasn’t absolved what happened many “not totaly culpable” sins later doesn’t make any difference!

See Satan Laughs when people say oh I couldn’t really help it–the devil Made me do it–I didn’t give my full consent of will because he made me do it–therefore I will not be judged!

Sell that to someone dumb enough to believe it–it won’t sell here!

Please review CCC with particular attention to Canons 1035 and 1037. We don’t know what takes place in that final moment. No one does, other than that particular soul and God. We do know that, "In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want 'any to perish, but all to come to repentance "CCC, 1037

Unless you’ve got the BETA version of St. Peter’s List 4.0, it’s merely supposition on our part; Supposition that is flawed immediately based on a human attempt to know the mind of God.

 

[fix]

The Church teaches that the sin is more than just the action. Say someone has your loved one held hostage, and says they will let them go if you steal a certain item for them. You steal the item, give it to the person, and they let your loved one go. Did you commit a mortal sin? The Church says no, because you did not do it with the full consent of the will. Let’s analyze it.

That is not the issue though.

1. Is it a grave matter? Yes, stealing is gravely wrong.
2. Do you have knowledge of the gravity? Yes, almost everyone knows stealing is wrong.
3. Do you give it the full consent of the will? No, you are being coerced into the sin by another. You are unable to give your full consent to it.
   Does that mean stealing is a virtue in this case? No, it is still a sin, a grave sin even, but you are not culpable for the action.

Again, not the issue.

A more common example is someone who is addicted. They are no longer able to give their full consent, the addiction is, for lack of a better word, coercing them.

I agree with what you state but that is not what I was asking you about. Deliberate consent can happen in one instant. I wanted to know what you meant by the phrase one’s whole being?

culpabability for mortal sin will vary from person to person and circumstance to circumstance. What I am arguing against is the notion it is rare or hard to commit a mortal sin. I have yet to see evidence the Church has stated it is hard or easy.

In short, the three conditions necessary in some cases can be met very quickly.

 

[Genesis315]

While we can objectively know when we or others have committed a grave sin, none of us has the ability to absolutely judge whether or not it is mortal–this is why God is the judge–only He has the ability to search even our own hearts for all the secrets they hold.

This is why the norms for receiving Communion say you should abstain if you are conscious of any “grave sin.”

If you’ve committed a grave sin, it may or may not be mortal, but the prudent thing to do is to do penance and confess it as soon as possible.