No one is singing!

[johnnykins]

Giving the lyrics works. Four part music? That only works in parishes where the assembly reads music and I know that in mine few members of the choir do, forget about the assembly. There is an entire population out there for whom a page of musical notation might as well be Cyrillic text. We’ve never taken a music lesson in our lives: it was not taught in school and our parents either did not have the money to give us private lessons or we were simply not interested enough to ask for some.

I read cyrillic - in fact Russian transliterated into latin text is really weird and difficult. The population is hardly as ignorant as many would make out. There is an entire population out there who can read music - why leave everyone in the dark? Oddly, I’ve never been to a Protestant church where the pew hymnal didn’t have the 4 parts. Guess only Catholics are kept ignorant.

 

[Phemie]

I read cyrillic - in fact Russian transliterated into latin text is really weird and difficult. The population is hardly as ignorant as many would make out. There is an entire population out there who can read music - why leave everyone in the dark? Oddly, I’ve never been to a Protestant church where the pew hymnal didn’t have the 4 parts. Guess only Catholics are kept ignorant.

Not so. I’ve been to a few different Protestant parishes recently and it appears that their hymnals now provide mostly lyrics. I know from old hymnals that that wasn’t always so but can it be recognition that fewer people are learning music because the various arts programs are the first to go when funds are low in schools?

 

[mariyka]

Giving the lyrics works. Four part music? That only works in parishes where the assembly reads music and I know that in mine few members of the choir do, forget about the assembly. There is an entire population out there for whom a page of musical notation might as well be Cyrillic text. We’ve never taken a music lesson in our lives: it was not taught in school and our parents either did not have the money to give us private lessons or we were simply not interested enough to ask for some.

Four part is possible without knowing how to read music, as long as one person knows the part well to act as leader. I learned Old Slavonic alto as a child from singing with my mother, who learned it from singing with her mother, etc. Also, singing harmony means that everyone can find a comfortable range.

I think the only way people will sing is if more people are willing to sing. It’s hard for those without the background or tradition of singing to take that first step and risk sounding bad. I’ve been trying to get my husband to sing for years, but he thinks he can’t. He claims a nun in elementary school shushed him because he sounded off-key and now he’s very self-conscious.

 

[johnnykins]

Not so. I’ve been to a few different Protestant parishes recently and it appears that their hymnals now provide mostly lyrics. I know from old hymnals that that wasn’t always so but can it be recognition that fewer people are learning music because the various arts programs are the first to go when funds are low in schools?

Maybe it’s the influx of ex-Catholics into Protestant churches who brought their hymnody ideas (or lack of same) with them? Hmmm - maybe its a subversive plot to destroy Protestant hymn singing.

Although I do agree that schools do cut the arts first…

 

[Phemie]

Four part is possible without knowing how to read music, as long as one person knows the part well to act as leader. I learned Old Slavonic alto as a child from singing with my mother, who learned it from singing with her mother, etc. Also, singing harmony means that everyone can find a comfortable range.

I think the only way people will sing is if more people are willing to sing. It’s hard for those without the background or tradition of singing to take that first step and risk sounding bad. I’ve been trying to get my husband to sing for years, but he thinks he can’t. He claims a nun in elementary school shushed him because he sounded off-key and now he’s very self-conscious.

There was nothing more off-putting in grade 1 than to be divided into ‘yellow birds’ ‘blue birds’ ‘brown birds’ and ‘black birds’ with the yellow and blue birds made to sing everything and the brown and black birds relegated to the back of the class and silence for the most part. Some folk never got past that.

I was a brown bird. Mom, who used to play piano and tunes we could sing – she played by ear as did most musicians in our community – always had to change the key if she played to accompany me. She said my singing fell ‘in the crack’ between the normal keys – whatever that meant. Today if I’m called upon to sing a Psalm at church the choir director just tells the others “Go with whatever she does.” It’s done a capella and I start much lower than anyone in the choir ever does because I have a short range and that’s the only way I can reach those higher notes – at least that’s how someone explained it to me. All I know is that when the choir sings I can’t follow.

 

[johnnykins]

There was nothing more off-putting in grade 1 than to be divided into ‘yellow birds’ ‘blue birds’ ‘brown birds’ and ‘black birds’ with the yellow and blue birds made to sing everything and the brown and black birds relegated to the back of the class and silence for the most part. Some folk never got past that.

I was a brown bird. Mom, who used to play piano and tunes we could sing – she played by ear as did most musicians in our community – always had to change the key if she played to accompany me. She said my singing fell ‘in the crack’ between the normal keys – whatever that meant.

Wait a second - that means you did have music education. Badly done, perhaps, but it was done. Time to get past issues with a troglodyte 1st grade teacher and demand 4 part music at Church. There is a whole population out there who did have training.

 

[johnnykins]

BTW I do admit there are no basses and baritones in 1st grade - so the 4 parts you were divided into were not 4 harmonic voices. Nonetheless, training you had however poorly done. In any event, those who can read 4 part music should be given that opportunity by supplying them with the music, IMHO.

 

[Phemie]

Wait a second - that means you did have music education. Badly done, perhaps, but it was done. Time to get past issues with a troglodyte 1st grade teacher and demand 4 part music at Church. There is a whole population out there who did have training.

Music education? Depends on how you define that.

My kids took music in school from the time they were in kindergarten. Taught by music teachers. Notes, instruments, choral singing, choral speech, etc.

We had a nun sing at us, make us sing back then making most of us shut up while the others sang. Based on what I know we sang unison, not parts, she just didn’t let most of us sing, particularly if it was a demonstration for the school board members or a visitor of some kind. She wasn’t a music teacher by any stretch of the imagination. What she did was no different from listening to mom sing Depression & WWII songs while accompanying herself on the piano and learning to sing the same songs – I can sing Lily Marlene to please myself but nobody could ever claim I took music lessons and nobody wants to hear me sing it.

 

[Blacksword]

Music education? Depends on how you define that.

My kids took music in school from the time they were in kindergarten. Taught by music teachers. Notes, instruments, choral singing, choral speech, etc.

We had a nun sing at us, make us sing back then making most of us shut up while the others sang. Based on what I know we sang unison, not parts, she just didn’t let most of us sing, particularly if it was a demonstration for the school board members or a visitor of some kind. She wasn’t a music teacher by any stretch of the imagination. What she did was no different from listening to mom sing Depression & WWII songs while accompanying herself on the piano and learning to sing the same songs – I can sing Lily Marlene to please myself but nobody could ever claim I took music lessons and nobody wants to hear me sing it.

What is the four birds division you mentioned? I’ve never heard of such a thing! Was this basically a way of getting children whose voices the nun didn’t like to be silent? It sounds mean and sad. Really, MOST people can sing and learn to hold a key, it’s a matter of confidence, and of them learning to hear the music and find a singing range that suits them. I still think there are few people who are truly, actually tone-deaf. Most can tell when something is in tune or not.

 

[Phemie]

What is the four birds division you mentioned? I’ve never heard of such a thing! Was this basically a way of getting children whose voices the nun didn’t like to be silent?
Yes, exactly. Nothing to do with alto, soprano, etc. It was strictly 'you can’t sing so you don’t get to sing." The other alternative I’ve heard is “You can be in the choir but just mouth the words.”
It sounds mean and sad. Really, MOST people can sing and learn to hold a key, it’s a matter of confidence, and of them learning to hear the music and find a singing range that suits them. I still think there are few people who are truly, actually tone-deaf. Most can tell when something is in tune or not.

I can tell when the choir hits a clunker, I can’t tell one key from another and reproducing a note from a pitch pipe? Forget it.

 

[Cat]

Maybe it’s the influx of ex-Catholics into Protestant churches who brought their hymnody ideas (or lack of same) with them? Hmmm - maybe its a subversive plot to destroy Protestant hymn singing.

Although I do agree that schools do cut the arts first…

Phemie is correct about this.

Many of the evangelical and non-denominational Protestant churches have gotten rid of hymnals, organs, and even pianos, and have gone entirely to using Praise and Worship songs projected on an overhead, or not projected at all, but merely led by a Praise and Worship band. The congregation is expected to pick up the lyrics by just listening and learning.

This was/is very frustrating to those of us who read music.

I have a terrible time singing by ear. This is one of the many reasons why I do not have good results from trying to learn any kind of chant from merely hearing it, even dozens of times. I have to have music (preferably modern notation–the neumes are rather challenging!). I wish I were built differently so that I could sing or play by ear, but I am what I am.

It was also frustrating to those of us who were raising children. When my children were young, I always insisted that they hold the hymnal or look on with me or my husband as we held the hymnals, and I would point to the NOTES (not the words). The girls honestly did learn quite a bit about reading music when I did this, and by the time they were in 6th grade, they could sight read well-enough to participate in our city’s annual presentation of Handel’s Messiah (not an easy sight-reading task).

(Note–my girls attended a private school and the music education was excellent. All children were taught from age 3 how to read music and how to sing correctly. The teachers used the solfege method.)

However, while they were growing up and we were attending the churches that used overheads and no hymnals, the girls didn’t get the benefits of singing hymns with music notes. (My daughters hated Praise and Worship, BTW. They called it “Boomer Rock.”)

My husband used to subscribe to several evangelical music magazines, and once he showed me an article extolling the value of getting rid of the organ in all worship services and using only a keyboard or a praise band. Again, this is musical disaster for young ones, because the organ is an excellent instrument to learn to sing with because it sustains the tones so beautifully, and because it is similiar to a human voice. The praise band, especially one played by amateurs, tends to “muddy up” the melody and make it very hard for children (and many adults) to hear the melody and sing on pitch.

No wonder we see so many tone-deaf CHRISTIAN children.

Thankfully many evangelical churches still offer a “traditional” worship service, too, where the old hymnals with the 4-part scores are still used!

And I agree–Catholic hymnals and missallettes SHOULD include the 4-part harmony. But would you believe that there are people (I’ve met up with them on this forum) who believe that 4-part harmony is “Protestant” and therefore shouldn’t be done in the Mass?!! Ay yi yi. I fear that Catholics get the Mass music that they deserve.

 

[roadsend]

…
And I agree–Catholic hymnals and missallettes SHOULD include the 4-part harmony. But would you believe that there are people (I’ve met up with them on this forum) who believe that 4-part harmony is “Protestant” and therefore shouldn’t be done in the Mass?!! …

This is the hymnal most of us over 60 crowd grew up with:

The St. Gregory Hymnal and Catholic Choir Book. *This hymnal for most of this past century has been acclaimed as the standard and most popular Catholic choir hymnal in the United States from the 1920s until the 1960s. The Neumann Press has now republished this most sought-after book exactly as the 1941 edition. It contains a complete collection of approved English and Latin Hymns, Motets, Masses and Liturgical Music for the various seasons of the Ecclesiastical Year. This beautiful, easy to read, and complete edition also contains the organ and piano accompaniment along with four-part music.
*

 

[Faithdancer]

I still think there are few people who are truly, actually tone-deaf. Most can tell when something is in tune or not.

I agree,and also think most people have rhythm and can dance. Although as a dance teacher, I’ve encountered a few adults, God bless them but……usually males, too!

 

[frenchbeatle]

Personally speaking, I usually don’t sing. I’ll sing the pslam, and the Sanctus, etc. But I’ll only sing the entrance, offertory and recessional songs if I’m familiar with them and like them. I never sing during Communion.

 

[Cat]

This is the hymnal most of us over 60 crowd grew up with:

The St. Gregory Hymnal and Catholic Choir Book. This hymnal for most of this past century has been acclaimed as the standard and most popular Catholic choir hymnal in the United States from the 1920s until the 1960s. The Neumann Press has now republished this most sought-after book exactly as the 1941 edition. It contains a complete collection of approved English and Latin Hymns, Motets, Masses and Liturgical Music for the various seasons of the Ecclesiastical Year. This beautiful, easy to read, and complete edition also contains the organ and piano accompaniment along with four-part music.

Sounds good to me!

Now if we can only convince local parishes to put out the money for it.

I personally would be willing to buy my own personal copy, but I’m guessing that most parishioners would not be in that camp. A lot of people just can’t afford a hymnal.

 

[JRRTFAN]

Looking around while our choir and band were leading the hymns yesterday at Mass, I was struck by how few people were singing! I like to sing, so it’s no problem for me, and I understand that some of the music can be tricky, but even where the customary hymns are given at the customary places, most people just stare straight ahead. Do they feel awkward? I mean, c’mon, lift a joyful voice unto the Lord! Nobody cares if you’re Andrea Bocelli or Sarah Brightman or not, and even the priests are up there singing along half the time. What gives?

Your post tells you why, one word, BAND. Give the band a nice retirement ceremony, dust of the organ and get an Adoremus Hymnal and start worshipping God with hymns instead of anything a BAND could play.

As an aside, my daughter is an Evangelical and I had gone to Easter VIgil Mass on Holy Saturday night, so I went with her Easter morning. They have a BAND, what those good people did to “All Creatures of Our God and King” would bring tears to the eyes of Francis of Assisi. Bands are good in arenas, at shows and High School football games. Don’t do BAND in Church!

 

[benedictgal]

Your post tells you why, one word, BAND. Give the band a nice retirement ceremony, dust of the organ and get an Adoremus Hymnal and start worshipping God with hymns instead of anything a BAND could play.

As an aside, my daughter is an Evangelical and I had gone to Easter VIgil Mass on Holy Saturday night, so I went with her Easter morning. They have a BAND, what those good people did to “All Creatures of Our God and King” would bring tears to the eyes of Francis of Assisi. Bands are good in arenas, at shows and High School football games. Don’t do BAND in Church!

I agree with most of what you said; however, the Church already gives us music for use in the Mass and it’s not a hymn. It is chant. According to the revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal:

1. This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

In the previous GIRM, the hymn was the last option. Now, it’s a liturgical chant.

 

[agapewolf]

Your post tells you why, one word, BAND. Give the band a nice retirement ceremony, dust of the organ and get an Adoremus Hymnal and start worshipping God with hymns instead of anything a BAND could play.

As an aside, my daughter is an Evangelical and I had gone to Easter VIgil Mass on Holy Saturday night, so I went with her Easter morning. They have a BAND, what those good people did to “All Creatures of Our God and King” would bring tears to the eyes of Francis of Assisi. Bands are good in arenas, at shows and High School football games. Don’t do BAND in Church!

As I said in the beginning of this thread. This is not true. I have a band and everyone sings very loud.

 

[JRRTFAN]

As I said in the beginning of this thread. This is not true. I have a band and everyone sings very loud.

Are you saying that the rendition of All Creatures of Our God and King at my daughter’s chuch is actually good? You should have introduced yourself Easter morning. Sorry we didn’t meet!

Who’s singing loud? Your band?

 

[agapewolf]

Are you saying that the rendition of All Creatures of Our God and King at my daughter’s chuch is actually good? You should have introduced yourself Easter morning. Sorry we didn’t meet!

Who’s singing loud? Your band?

I didn’t say that, and you know it. No need for snark. I’m simply refuting your statement that no one sings because its a band.

I have a band, and EVERYONE sings. I meant it exactly how I said it. The whole church. Very loudly.