No one is singing!

[Faithdancer]

I’m with TheMc (and others) on this one. We don’t need to sing out loud (or even respond out loud) to actively participate in the Mass. As long as the celebrant follows the rubrics closely enough to say a valid mass, we actively participate in the mass by hearing it (physically, i.e. not via TV etc (and I don’t exclude the deaf, or those too far away to hear well, as long as they are physically present), (and a sound system is OK, too)) and intending to participate in the mass. And we aren’t even legally responsible if the celebrant makes an invalid hash of the mass, as long as we intended to participate in a valid mass.

The notion that everyone has to (mechanically or otherwise) perform the same actions in lock-step in order to be doing the same thing is a modern mass-conceit (no pun intended).

That said, I’m not against singing (even poorly). But teach people simple chant, and on a regular basis, and I would not be surprised if more people sing. But don’t assume that those who don’t sing aren’t participating.

I haven’t counted how many minutes of an hour mass the hymns take up. But it’s a significant amount of time, maybe 1/4? I’m not saying they’re not paying rapt attention to the homily and the readings, they may well be. I’m just saying they’re not participating in the singing. which is a good part of the Mass.

I do think, though, that you and others here are correct on the point of the modern music being too difficult for many people. Of course, the Sequentia is not exactly easy either!

 

[Rahn]

That said, I’m not against singing (even poorly). But teach people simple chant, and on a regular basis, and I would not be surprised if more people sing. But don’t assume that those who don’t sing aren’t participating.

Man does not live by chant alone

This is turning out similar to other threads here that deal with music, with people digging foxholes according to their taste in music and definition of what is “proper” Mass music. I fall into the camp of those who see the musical part of the Mass as worship, and as a participatory event.

I love to hear a gifted cantor, or choir, but, I think we should be guided by Hebrews 13:5:
…let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Yes, the fruits of our lips (i.e. our prayers, *and our songs) *are a sacrifice to our God! We don’t sacrifice bulls, goats or lambs these days, we have the Son of God as our sacrifice. But, *we *contribute with the sacrifice of the fruit of our lips.

David was a “man after God’s own heart”, and he penned and sung the best and most thoughtful and wonderful praise music ever written. We should follow his lead, sing praises to our living God at the top of our lungs!

 

[ProVobis]

That’s a very interesting statement…

All’s I remember is that at the end of Mass, the priest facing the altar not the congregation, would start singing “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” and everyone just joined in. No hymn numbers, no hymnals, no cantors, just singing familiar songs. It was almost automatic. Why have 500 hymns to need to memorize when most can’t remember more than 15-20?

It seems too that Catholics and Protestants have different philosophies of Sunday worship. So it’s really unfair to compare the singing prowess of congregations if the main focus is (or should be) the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

At least a lot of folks clap along with the final hymn, once the choir leader gets them started. They clap on their way out the door during the hymn, lol!

Unfortunately, they also clap at my parish, something that the parochial vicar is trying to greatly discourage. When I served as emergency cantor one Sunday, they tried to clap for me but I politely waved them off and signaled that it was not appropriate.

As Pope Benedict XVI noted, whenever applause breaks out during the liturgy, it’s more along the lines of “praising” some form of human achievement.

As for lengthy recessional hymns, I believe that these really should not happen as they should only cover the “exit”, if you will, of the celebrant.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Musical selections and the fact that you have a “band” may form huge parts of the problem. Lamentably, a lot of what is in Spirit and Song is not necessarily suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It’s not even meant for congregational singing, as much as OCP would like for folks to believe.

Whenever our choir does not sing and the parochial vicar chooses the music, he selects traditional hymns. Everyone sings. However, when the “praise and worship” choir sings, no one sings.

Bear in mind, too, that Pope Benedict wrote some very telling words about the quality of musical selection:

I know, from experience, when I have had to serve as cantor for that Mass (w hen the choir does not show up) and I’ve chosen proper music (traditional hymns), just about everyone sings.

I’m afraid that it is the opposite in my parish…and it’s really regrettable. Except for a very few old standards (a very few) like “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name,” our people seem to like/relate more to the appalling OCP selections. “Eagles Wings?” You’d think we were at choir camp. They all sing. “How Great Thou Art” (which is a Protestant hymn if there ever was one). They love it. That really egregious old song “Let There Be Peace on Earth” is particularly populat. They really get into that and throw their heads back and sing. The schola get’s complimented when they do “Adoramus Te Christe,” but no on joins in. We have the entrance and communion antiphons set to music and we do them in place of an processional or communion hymn, but even though they have the inserts right there in the pew, they don’t sing, though they are certainly complimentary.

I hate OCP’s stuff. Too banal, too many time changes, inappropriate rythmns, etc. We’re ditching it this Advent for another company’s. I don’t remember which, but I know it isn’t the Adoremus Hymnal, which is what I was hoping for.

 

[StarFireKK]

I think you all are forgetting that music isn’t that easy to learn. Most of you obviously have talent. It might be wonderful talent it might just be some minor talent with some good schooling. But not everyone can just sing a song after they’ve heard it once or twice.

The “just learn it” attitude is why a lot of people don’t sing. It is a attitude that shuts people down.

You really want people to sing. Don’t have a choir. Put the Choir in with the parish if you are all so certain people will just start singing if they hear others to sing. Better yet talk to the priest and see if he thinks it is something that needs to be addressed.

I’ve heard homilies on confession,dress at church, attention and attitude during church, all the commandments, family and family prayer, personal prayer, loving your neighbor and so many other topics but I have never heard a priest give a homily on the lack of singing. I think that’s pretty telling.

 

[Cat]

I think you all are forgetting that music isn’t that easy to learn. Most of you obviously have talent. It might be wonderful talent it might just be some minor talent with some good schooling. But not everyone can just sing a song after they’ve heard it once or twice.

I agree. Once or twice isn’t enough. But 40 years…isn’t that enough time to learn a hymn?

The “just learn it” attitude is why a lot of people don’t sing. It is a attitude that shuts people down.

You really want people to sing. Don’t have a choir. Put the Choir in with the parish if you are all so certain people will just start singing if they hear others to sing.

Did I say that people will start singing if they hear others sing?

I hope not, and if I did say that, I apologize.

I think people should learn how to read music. It’s not that hard. And then instead of learning songs by ear, which I cannot do at all, you learn songs by reading the music. Actually, you never really learn the songs. You just read them.

Better yet talk to the priest and see if he thinks it is something that needs to be addressed.

I’ve heard homilies on confession,dress at church, attention and attitude during church, all the commandments, family and family prayer, personal prayer, loving your neighbor and so many other topics but I have never heard a priest give a homily on the lack of singing. I think that’s pretty telling.

Yes, I agree that most priests really don’t care about the music. It’s no wonder so many good musicians do not waste their time playing or singing in the Catholic Mass. So few people seem to give a hoot. And when good musicians do play or sing, someone is waiting to tell them why what they sang or played is not reverent or not liturgically correct or not even Catholic.

Last week, one of the dear priests in my parish spoke to me for a while during my pipe organ practice (I just started taking lessons a few weeks ago). He shared how he loves hearing good music in the Mass. He’s fond of all kinds of music, traditional and contemporary.

So some priests care.

But I think that so many priests have so many other things on their hearts and minds that they really don’t want to spend a lot of time talking about music. Like so many of you seem to be saying, “Music in the Mass doesn’t really matter. Mass is Mass with or without music.”

And that, friends, is the main reason why no one is singing or playing in so many parishes.

 

[Cat]

I’m afraid that it is the opposite in my parish…and it’s really regrettable. Except for a very few old standards (a very few) like “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name,” our people seem to like/relate more to the appalling OCP selections. “Eagles Wings?” You’d think we were at choir camp. They all sing. “How Great Thou Art” (which is a Protestant hymn if there ever was one). They love it. That really egregious old song “Let There Be Peace on Earth” is particularly populat. They really get into that and throw their heads back and sing. The schola get’s complimented when they do “Adoramus Te Christe,” but no on joins in. We have the entrance and communion antiphons set to music and we do them in place of an processional or communion hymn, but even though they have the inserts right there in the pew, they don’t sing, though they are certainly complimentary.

I hate OCP’s stuff. Too banal, too many time changes, inappropriate rythmns, etc. We’re ditching it this Advent for another company’s. I don’t remember which, but I know it isn’t the Adoremus Hymnal, which is what I was hoping for.

Good heavens, what do you have against “How Great Thou Art?”

Are you bothered about the last verse–When Christ shall come with shouts of acclamation to take me home, what joy shall fill my heart."

Well, ignore that part if it bothers you. The rest of the hymn is so wonderful, and the melody soars. Substitute other words in your mind, just like many hymns have different lyrics for Protestants and Catholics.

It’s one of the few hymns that the congregation really sings well in our parish.

 

[benedictgal]

Good heavens, what do you have against “How Great Thou Art?”

Are you bothered about the last verse–When Christ shall come with shouts of acclamation to take me home, what joy shall fill my heart."

Well, ignore that part if it bothers you. The rest of the hymn is so wonderful, and the melody soars. Substitute other words in your mind, just like many hymns have different lyrics for Protestants and Catholics.

It’s one of the few hymns that the congregation really sings well in our parish.

For me it’s the connection with Elvis. It really does not have a sacred feel to it. Form and text should matter. It’s one of those songs that I believe should not be in a Catholic hymnal; however, for some reason, it consistently pops up in GIA, OCP and WLP.

OCP (and now, to a certain extent, GIA) tends to draw too much from Protestant tradition rather than Catholic liturgical form.

My dad’s pastor, for one, was rather impressed with the Simple English Propers. It made things a lot easier. I mean the Church already gives us what to sing, it’s the Propers. The Church Music Association of America has taken it upon itself to publish very easy, singable propers so that all of us can actually sing the Mass than merely sing at Mass.

I just ordered the revised Grail Psalter so that I can start using it for the psalm. The texts are beautiful and it is a legitimate option. Plus, they seem to be easier to sing.

 

[TheMc]

What I think is even more interesting is that verse in Mark 14. Let me post a longer passage.

Oh my goodness, after receiving communion they sung a hymn! This passage also implies that Jesus sang along with them, as part of the Liturgy!

Whaddaya know!

Actually, they sung a psalm, probably in something quite similar to today’s “psalm tones”. That was part of the “liturgy” of the Passover. However, it is usually translated as “hymn.”

 

[TheMc]

David was a “man after God’s own heart”, and he penned and sung the best and most thoughtful and wonderful praise music ever written. We should follow his lead, sing praises to our living God at the top of our lungs!

So many people bring this up. There is one big difference!! David did not dance during the cultic worship of God.

Outside of the Mass, we are free to dance and praise God however we would like. But inside the Mass, it’s a different story.

 

[Phemie]

I agree. Once or twice isn’t enough. But 40 years…isn’t that enough time to learn a hymn?

Depends on how often the hymn was sung in those 40 years. Several Sundays in a row at various places during the Mass? Once every 7 or 8 months so that it’s new each time?

 

[PatriceA]

This is just my personal experience, but there are times I enjoy singing and then there are times I just need to sit with God at mass and quiet my mind or prayerfully contemplate the readings or Father’s homily. Singing sometimes is distracting to me. I do think music is very important, especially because I do think being in a choir or organist or a cantor is a ministry and that is where some people’s gifts are best utilized. But I don’t like being pressured to sing, anymore than I like someone grabbing my hand to hold at the Our Father. If you like to sing, belt out. Otherwise, don’t worry about us that would rather not.

 

[Rahn]

So many people bring this up. There is one big difference!! David did not dance during the cultic worship of God.

Outside of the Mass, we are free to dance and praise God however we would like. But inside the Mass, it’s a different story.

I don’t believe I mentioned anything about dancing, but if you want to go there:

2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

 

[archangel04]

I** think it comes down to sloth**. I believe that more and more Catholics view the Mass as a required process they have to endure every Sunday morning and not the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ to His Father.

They want to get it done as quickly as possible with as little effort as necessary. Ever hear any encouragement from a priest for the faithful to sing? I can’t remember ever hearing that. Singing time is also a prime opportunity to day-dream about breakfast or how to play the first hole at the country club in 46 minutes plus drive time.

Wow great way to judge so many Catholics who don’t sing. Singing is not required at mass to fully participate, wether one likes it or not, it’s not required. Many people are just too shy to sing, so let it be. Some of the music, I am sorry to say, is just horrible even theologically incorrect.

 

[Cat]

For me it’s the connection with Elvis. It really does not have a sacred feel to it. Form and text should matter. It’s one of those songs that I believe should not be in a Catholic hymnal; however, for some reason, it consistently pops up in GIA, OCP and WLP.

OCP (and now, to a certain extent, GIA) tends to draw too much from Protestant tradition rather than Catholic liturgical form.

My dad’s pastor, for one, was rather impressed with the Simple English Propers. It made things a lot easier. I mean the Church already gives us what to sing, it’s the Propers. The Church Music Association of America has taken it upon itself to publish very easy, singable propers so that all of us can actually sing the Mass than merely sing at Mass.

I just ordered the revised Grail Psalter so that I can start using it for the psalm. The texts are beautiful and it is a legitimate option. Plus, they seem to be easier to sing.

Elvis?

That’s really not fair–to dismiss a hymn because a secular singer has recorded it. There are a lot of hymns and sacred music that have been used in secular settings, but that doesn’t negate their original sacred intent.

You condemn me when I say that chant creeps me out because of the association with horror movies.

But there’s a difference–I have never said that chant isn’t sacred. I just don’t find it personally conducive to worship. But I fully believe that it should be used in Mass if it is possible to find people who will learn it and sing it correctly.

For many of us, How Great Thou Art has no association with Elvis whatsoever. I associate it with the Swedes–O Store Gud! I can still remember a gentleman with a booming bass voice doing this as a solo on a regular schedule in my Swedish Baptist church while I was growing up.

Or with George Beverly Shea, the singer who worked with Billy Graham for many years.

Like I said, I can see why the last verse would be problematic for Catholics, just as it is for some denominations of Protestants. But the rest of the lyrics–How Great Thou Art–are beautiful. They do not glorify the “I”, which is a complaint that many people have against modern Chrisitan hymns. And the lyrics are poetic and sublime–although the language is understandable to modern people, and not flowery or fruity or “King James,” it is still above and more literary than what most of us speak in our daily lives–the language lifts us outside of our ordinary lives here on earth and transports us into the heavenly realms.

It is a wonderful hymn for those who are involved with the environmental issues. I’m not one of these, but I do agree with the need to respect the earth and try to work to preserve whatever aspects of God’s creation that we can preserve. How Great Thou Art should be a hymn that these people like because it calls attention to the beauty of God’s creation.

It’s also a great hymn to help us contemplate the death of Jesus, something that many Protestants stay away from. But this hymn doesn’t let us forget that Jesus “bled and died to take away my sin.” This is so Catholic, I’m surprised the hymn is included in Protestant hymnals.

It also talks about bowing in humble adoration, something that many Protestants don’t make a habit of. Again, how did this hymn ever get captured by Protestants?!

Plus this hymn is generally beloved by many Christians, including many Catholic Christians, and Catholics will actually sing it with a full voice. For this reason alone, I think that it is circumspect to at least accept the hymn. No one has to like any hymn or musical style, since personal upbringing and background comes into play and influences our like and dislike of various musical styles and pieces. But I think we need to respect the hymn and accept that it’s not worth challenging How Great Thou Art at this time in church history.

 

[Phemie]

Unfortunately, they also clap at my parish, something that the parochial vicar is trying to greatly discourage. When I served as emergency cantor one Sunday, they tried to clap for me but I politely waved them off and signaled that it was not appropriate.

Faithdancer said that, led by Father, they clap along with the hymn, not for the choir/musicians/cantor . . . not that I’m a fan of any song that you can clap along to as part of worship.

 

[Cat]

Wow great way to judge so many Catholics who don’t sing. Singing is not required at mass to fully participate, wether one likes it or not, it’s not required. Many people are just too shy to sing, so let it be. Some of the music, I am sorry to say, is just horrible even theologically incorrect.

Have you told your priest about the hymns that you consider theologically correct?

Why is the priest allowing these hymns to be done in the Mass?

Our bishop has forbidden certain pieces in Masses in our diocese. So it is possible for a priest or bishop to forbid pieces that are theologically incorrect. So why not speak to your priest, and point out those hymns that are theologically incorrect, and ask him to please forbid the singing of these pieces in Masses in your parish?

Even if you don’t sing, you should be able to enjoy the music and benefit from hearing it. If the hymns contain incorrect theology, and you recognize this, and all the other parishioners, including the priest, do not recognize this, then I think you owe it to your fellow parishioners to try to fix this problem.

If you’re shy, I realize that this might be a scary thing for you–to go to the priest and ask him to consider banning hymns. But shyness should not be an excuse to allow bad theology to be promulgated. Ask the Lord for boldness. Think of all the saints who were tortured and killed–if they can go through that, surely we can make an appt. with a priest and just talk to him, can’t we?

Godspeed to you.

 

[benedictgal]

Really! If that’s true I don’t agree. I think that being in unison, whether it’s reciting the Nicene creed or singing or praying the Lord’s Prayer, is a big part of fellowship and a big part of going to any church. If it’s only about the Eucharist, Mass could be cut to 15 minutes, or communion could be made at a drive-thru window.

I wonder what Cardinal Arinze would say about singing in church. I know he doesn’t condone dance as part of worship for US or European Catholics, although apparently he’s okay with it in the African and Asian services. When I heard him say that I thought, is he insinuating that white people can’t dance?

Here is what he said:

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents – some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.

Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

…Whenever the people clap – there is something wrong – immediately. When they clap – a dance is done and they clap.

Now, I realize that this might not have anything directly to do with the faithful not singing, but, Cardinal Arinze does bring up the issue of clapping. Now, someone had clarified what you had stated on clapping in that the celebrant was leading it for a song.

I do have serious issues with that, given the fact that the Mass should have elements of the sacred, the solemn, the majestic and the sublime to it. Some will argue that there is clapping at a Papal Mass; however, this is more along the lines of a sign of respect. In fact, there have been certain Papal liturgies wherein the Holy Father has requested that the faithful not clap.

I cannot find the quote, but, Cardinal Arizne also had some serious concerns about the music used in liturgy. He was not too keen on the guitar, for one thing. I need to dig up the quote.

Here is, however, what another cardinal, the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, wrote about the problem with the music currently used during the Mass:

On the one hand, there is the music that Plato ascribes, in line with mythology, to Apollo, the god of light and reason. This is the music that draws senses into spirit and so brings man to wholeness. It does not abolish the senses, but inserts them into the unity of this creature that is man. It elevates the spirit precisely by wedding it to the senses, and it elevates the senses by uniting them with the spirit. Thus this kind of music is an expression of man’s special place in the general structure of being. But then there is the music that Plato ascribes to Marsyas, which we might describe, in terms of cultic history, as “Dionysian”. It drags man into the intoxication of the senses, crushes rationality, and subjects the spirit to the senses. The way Plato (and more moderately, Aristotle) allots instruments and keys to one or other of these two kinds of music is now obsolete and may in many respects surprise us. But the Apollonian/Dionysian alternative runs through the whole history of religion and confronts us again today. Not every kind of music can have a place in Christian worship. It has its standards, and that standard is the Logos. If we want to know whom we are dealing with, the Holy Spirit or the unholy spirit, we have to remember that it is the Holy Spirit who moves us to say, “Jesus is Lord” (I Cor 12:3). The Holy Spirit leads us to the Logos, and He leads us to a music that serves the Logos as a sign of the sursum corda, the lifting up of the human heart. Does it integrate man by drawing him to what is above, or does it cause his disintegration into formless intoxication or mere sensuality? That is the criterion for a music in harmony with logos, a form of that logike latreia (reasonable, logos-worthy worship) of which we spoke in the first part of this book.

This certainly foreshadows what he wrote, as Pope Benedict XVI, in Sacramentum Caritatis.

 

[TheMc]

I don’t believe I mentioned anything about dancing, but if you want to go there:

2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

Poorly phrased on my part, but the point was that David did things to praise God that he wouldn’t do during the temple worship. It applies to dancing, to his shouting, etc…