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Peacemonger
Guest
We should leave Iraq. Our troops did their job. The got rid of all those WMDs - oh…they weren’t any…my bad. Well at least they over thre that really evil Hussein guy.
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gilliam
Guest
OK, let’s go over it again. If we leave right now we get:
- The Islamisists take over large parts of the country (these are the same guys that ran Fallujah. Anyone who is not like them (e.g., Christians, and Shiites), will be forced to convert or be subjected to their ‘law’… which means they will eventually have all their weath taken away or killed. They will use the country as a headquarters for International terrorism (remember, their goal is much larger than Iraq). HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS will die
- The Baathists will also take over large parts of the country and seek revenge over those who ‘betrayed’ them. MILLIONS will die.
- There will be civil war. MILLIANS will die.
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Peacemonger
Guest
I’ve posted direct quotes from the Holy See declaring that an invasion of Iraq would be unjust. But you and all the other “Catholic” on this forum willfully ignore this and continue to glorify anunjust war.Shame on you!
Hyper Hyper Hyper
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Peacemonger
Guest
I don’t mean to sound harsh, but you don’t have a clue what Christ taught. To you, shedding blood seems to be a virtue.
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gilliam
Guest
No, you quoted guys in the Vatican who said we should avoid war and wait for the UN to act. Well the UN was being bribed. You know that now, and they know that now. To follow the Vatican’s guidance would have simply played us as fools to Saddam. Sorry, the Vatican was wrong in this, and as a Catholic, you should know that the just war doctrine does not rely on what the Vatican says about military matters.
I am not being hyper when I say millions will die if we pull out (just like millions died when we pulled out of Vietnam). It is simply a fact of life. We can’t go back to 1999, we have to live in the present.
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gilliam
Guest
No, protecting the innocent is a virtue, if you have to kill a few terrorists to do that, so be it. And you have no right to say what I or anyone else has a clue of. You are being very, very discourtious and rude.
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Peacemonger
Guest
Disagreeing with your distorted view of Christianity, afterall, you believe this war is just, does not make me discourtious and rude. The truth hurts sometimes.
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gilliam
Guest
Let’s step back from calling each other names. Please realize that if we leave now, many, many, many more people will die than if we can help the country get a free and fair government. No matter what happened before, going forward, we must be for the innocent people of Iraq. We can’t just walk away and leave them in the hands of these goons who are beheading people, kidnapping people, and blowing churches up. They are doing those things to gain power, and they will continue to do those things after we leave, as they are doing them in Iraqi controlled areas now. Once they have regained power, millions will die. It is guaranteed.
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gilliam
Guest
From Tony Blair, today, someone whose immortal soul stands in the balance over this thing:
And I’d just like to say this very strongly to the outside world: Whatever people’s feelings or beliefs about the removal of Saddam Hussein and the wisdom of that, there surely is only one side to be on in what is now very clearly a battle between democracy and terror.
On the one side you have people who desperately want to make the democratic process work, and want to have the same type of democratic freedoms other parts of the world enjoy, and on the other side people who are killing and intimidating and trying to destroy a better future for Iraq. . . .
I’ve nothing but admiration for you and for your colleagues and everyone here, whether from the international community or Iraqis who are trying to make this country better, and you deserve our praise and our support and also our gratitude because you’re striking an important blow for democracy everywhere. . . .
When I meet the people working alongside the United Nations–Iraqis in fear of their life every day, because they are trying to bring freedom and democracy to their people–when I see their courage and their determination and know that they speak for the vast majority of people in Iraq who want that democracy and freedom, then I know that we are doing the right thing. . . .
And I will also say this to you: There are people dying in Iraq, but the reason people are dying is because of the terrorism and the intimidation and the people who are deliberately killing anyone trying to make this country better.
Now what should our response be as an international community? Our response should be to stand alongside the democrats–the people who’ve got the courage to see this thing through–and help them see it through. I’ve got no doubt at all that that is the right thing for us to do. . . .
And I think that everyone understands that obviously there will be violence that will continue even after an election. On the other hand, we will then have a very clear expression of democratic will. And what is interesting to me was talking to the United Nations officials here who were first of all absolutely committed to the electoral process and secondly said to me in the strongest terms that all the work they were doing in every part of the Iraqi community indicated people actually do want to participate. There is intimidation in certain areas but no shortage whatever of people’s desire to participate in democratic elections. . . .
read the rest.
And I’d just like to say this very strongly to the outside world: Whatever people’s feelings or beliefs about the removal of Saddam Hussein and the wisdom of that, there surely is only one side to be on in what is now very clearly a battle between democracy and terror.
On the one side you have people who desperately want to make the democratic process work, and want to have the same type of democratic freedoms other parts of the world enjoy, and on the other side people who are killing and intimidating and trying to destroy a better future for Iraq. . . .
I’ve nothing but admiration for you and for your colleagues and everyone here, whether from the international community or Iraqis who are trying to make this country better, and you deserve our praise and our support and also our gratitude because you’re striking an important blow for democracy everywhere. . . .
When I meet the people working alongside the United Nations–Iraqis in fear of their life every day, because they are trying to bring freedom and democracy to their people–when I see their courage and their determination and know that they speak for the vast majority of people in Iraq who want that democracy and freedom, then I know that we are doing the right thing. . . .
And I will also say this to you: There are people dying in Iraq, but the reason people are dying is because of the terrorism and the intimidation and the people who are deliberately killing anyone trying to make this country better.
Now what should our response be as an international community? Our response should be to stand alongside the democrats–the people who’ve got the courage to see this thing through–and help them see it through. I’ve got no doubt at all that that is the right thing for us to do. . . .
And I think that everyone understands that obviously there will be violence that will continue even after an election. On the other hand, we will then have a very clear expression of democratic will. And what is interesting to me was talking to the United Nations officials here who were first of all absolutely committed to the electoral process and secondly said to me in the strongest terms that all the work they were doing in every part of the Iraqi community indicated people actually do want to participate. There is intimidation in certain areas but no shortage whatever of people’s desire to participate in democratic elections. . . .
read the rest.
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thestickman
Guest
I’ve observed that the closer we get to the elections in Iraq the more shrill the rhetoric and whine from the defeated anti-war left becomes. Once the elections take place and democratic/representitive government is in place, all the whines and moans regarding the justness of this war will be made 100% irrelevant, IMO.
A nation is freed and the people will soon elect their own national government. A butcher and his rapers of children are no longer in power. Uday and Queball are still dead and freedom is gaining a permanent foothold in the sands of Iraq. I am so proud of our troops, their families, our nation and our President.
May God continue to Bless and have Mercy on America!
A nation is freed and the people will soon elect their own national government. A butcher and his rapers of children are no longer in power. Uday and Queball are still dead and freedom is gaining a permanent foothold in the sands of Iraq. I am so proud of our troops, their families, our nation and our President.
May God continue to Bless and have Mercy on America!
J
JMJ_Pinoy
Guest
Thursday, December 23, 2004
****
America is again proving freedom is the wave of the future****
By William Safire
I now admit to having expected the war in Iraq to be won in a matter of months, not years. Saddam’s plan to disperse his forces and conduct a murderous insurgency, abetted by his terrorist allies, was a surprise.
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This by no means suggests that President Bush's decision to overthrow a dangerous despotism was a mistake. On the contrary, it was and is the right war (against a genocidal maniac who was gaining strength) in the right place (the Middle East cradle of terror) for the right purpose (to get the Arab street out of the rut of hatred and onto a path to freedom).
In return for today's grudging concession of tactical misjudgment, however, I claim this expectation: When and if we discover hidden supplies of germ weapons in Iraq or Syria, and as future confessions reveal the extent of connections between al-Qaida and Saddam, the legion of war critics will forthrightly admit their certitude was misplaced.
But more to today's point is our difference of opinion about strategy: I stand with those who believe this war was right and that its sacrifices will be justified by lives saved and tyranny diminished. I disagree with those who opposed the pre-emptive fight from the start or who have lost heart when it dragged on too long and are casting about for scapegoats.
Here are criteria to measure success or failure in the battle for democracy in the region and the struggles for freedom around the world:
First, will Iraq stay whole and its people free?
The present answer is: We'll see. The only debate in the United States now seems to be about whether to raise the number of our troops there to help finish the job; only a small minority is calling for a pullout. We are committed, as we should be, to success; so are the Iraqi Kurds; we'll see how eager the Shiite majority is to end its long Sunni Baathist subjugation.
Next, has America's huge military engagement in the Middle East helped produce progress toward democracy in Muslim countries where monarchs and dictators now rule?
Signs are that the answer is yes. At a conference last week in Dubai, gulf states spoke openly of economic reform and a campaign against corruption, which must have worried oppressive theocrats in Iran. Egypt, Jordan and Morocco are beginning to see glimmers of liberty's light, which embarrasses reactionary Saudis and terrorist Syrians. The groundswell is felt in Asia, where populous Indonesia and Malaysia are showing how Islamic nations can prosper by combating medieval fundamentalism.
On top of that, America's decision to stay the course after its overthrow of Saddam — a financial backer of suicide bombers and hero of Palestinian jihadists — has helped revivify the prospect of peace in the Holy Land after the death of Arafat. Our military activism emboldened Israel to risk withdrawal from Gaza, and should encourage Palestinians to elect a rational statemaker next month.
A final criterion: Is our confidence in the desire of 20 million literate Iraqis to live in relative liberty being reflected in the recent run of elections in the world?
Australians voted to remain our stalwart ally in Iraq. Afghanistan's voters took their lives in their hands to blaze their trail to a democratic government. Americans voted decisively to endorse our hopes rather than our fears in Iraq. Ukrainian voters refused to let a corrupt regime backed by the power of Russia's Putin deny them their democratic rights; they will most likely assert their independence this weekend.
That will mark four straight victories for those we Wilsonian idealists consider the good guys, with two to go, Palestine and in Iraq. One election may be sensibly peaceful and the other bloodily courageous, but our Iraqi commitment has strengthened the trend.
In 1940, Anne Morrow Lindbergh wrote a provocative apologia for fascism titled "The Wave of the Future." President Franklin Roosevelt answered those who believed "that, for some unexplained reason, tyranny and slavery have become the surging wave of the future — and that freedom is an ebbing tide. But we Americans know that this is not true."
Less true now than ever. Once again, America and its allies ensure that freedom is the wave of the future.
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HagiaSophia
Guest
Does your sophistry have no end?. You are free to hold whatever personal opinions about the war and your own highly personalized view of Christianity as you wish - but you are beyond the realm of both your authority and expertise in criticizing anyone’s else Christianity.
Whatever position people hold on the war they are no less Christian nor human than yourself. Your attempt to twist your religion to affirm your political agenda is bad enough, to critique someone’s else is over the top and to try and put words in the mouth of the Church as some official position has gotten more than old, it’s tiresome.
You really owe an apology to others in this thread. .
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Peacemonger
Guest
I owe an apology to NO ONE. I simply speak the truth and you and those like you can’t stand it. You hate it…the truth. Because the truth is this war was, is, and always will be unjust, and immoral.This isn’t my personal opinion either, but the opinion of religious leaders within the Catholic Church and with out. With the exception of a handfull of priests in the US and nationalistic Catholics and fundamentalist protestants, this war has been condemned. The spin that you guys put out to try and justify what is going on borders on insanity. And to make matters worse, many of you think we are doing GOD’s work…That’s sad, and just shows your fundamental mis-understanding of the Gospels. But you’re so blinded by your unhealthy Americanism, that you can’t see that. So you guys can hate me all you want, but its not me you hate but the TRUTH.
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MrS
Guest
Just a comment from an observer…
Peacemonger…you are a sad case. Who is it who really upsets you to the point of needless, and useless attacks (unjust) to posters and those who have already proven you wrong.?
Peacemonger…you are a sad case. Who is it who really upsets you to the point of needless, and useless attacks (unjust) to posters and those who have already proven you wrong.?
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CaptSC
Guest
Peacemonger, I really don’t have anything to say but have a cup of Christmas Cheer.
And honestly, you are making a fool out of yourself. That is a fact, and I am not trying to be mean-spirited or “Un-Christlike,” you are sounding shrill and brainwashed. I am sick of it. If you are going to try to make a point, try to make it intelligently.
And honestly, you are making a fool out of yourself. That is a fact, and I am not trying to be mean-spirited or “Un-Christlike,” you are sounding shrill and brainwashed. I am sick of it. If you are going to try to make a point, try to make it intelligently.
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Brad
Guest
I don’t suppose the 60% divorce rate, the massive number of teenagers with STDs, the heinous killing of 4,000 babies a day out of their wombs, the rampant homosexual and heterosexual promiscuity and related domestic abuse or taking God out of everything could have anything to do with the lack of peace. It must be that because there is a war in Iraq that we have no peace. I mean - heck - it was completely peaceful in Iraq before the US got there.
Greeley doesn’t want to talk about the Gospel which says REPENT - run from evil - repent from sin - follow the 10 commandments - only then will their be peace (at least according to Pope John Paul II in his Christmas message). So, Greeley obfuscates and distracts by talking about something he knows nothing about. As a result, he shirks his true duty of teaching and preaching the Gospel.
Greeley doesn’t want to talk about the Gospel which says REPENT - run from evil - repent from sin - follow the 10 commandments - only then will their be peace (at least according to Pope John Paul II in his Christmas message). So, Greeley obfuscates and distracts by talking about something he knows nothing about. As a result, he shirks his true duty of teaching and preaching the Gospel.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
What about the blood Saddams regime shed?Why is that okay? I don’t think any one here LIKES war.Threads like this seem to try to imply that “few soldiers america has lost” are for no reason. That is not right! I would hate to be a parent of a soldier who died over there and run into this kind of thing.Please, keep that in mind.God Bless
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HagiaSophia
Guest
The ole “Thank God I am not like other men”, didn’t work when it was first said, and doesn’t hold any more water now…you’re over the top and as I mentioned before, way beyond the level of both your authority and expertise.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
On another thread, “Peacemonger” threatened to punch someone out. When I pointed out the irony – calling himself “Peacemonger” and threatening violence – he got very defensive.
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Peacemonger
Guest
vern humphrey:
By the way, I’ve never claimed to be a pacifist.
Please put that in context. Show me/us the posts.
By the way, I’ve never claimed to be a pacifist.
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