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Peacemonger
Guest
No one has proven me wrong.It’s so funny to read that. If you want to believe that the war in Iraq is just, then that’s fine…you go ahead.
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Writer
Guest
I don’t have the time or inclination to get drawn into this matter on the day following Christmas, but I will make an observation. Reminiscient of the line from Lord of the Rings, the world is changing. The landscape of the terrorist’s home and stronghold is being altered more with each passing day; we are changing the look and nature of their own homelands. It will be long and challenging, but given day after day of beating the enemies of the western world down, we’ll take their toll.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
You posted it, several of us saw it, and I’m not going to jump through hoops for you.
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HagiaSophia
Guest
vern humphrey:
My personal “fav” was the claim to be giving “Christian witness” to support the posts…
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vern_humphrey
Guest
We all remember how Saints Felicity and Perpetua beat up the Roman governor. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gifMy personal “fav” was the claim to be giving “Christian witness” to support the posts…
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Faithful_2_Rome
Guest
I must preach this truth: Not much I agee with Father Greely on…but that article is SO Righteous it has become the first ever article by this Priest I have cut from the paper to keep…each passing day proves his words to be quite prophetic on this issue…now I hear that Cuba has struck Black Crude? If so, I wonder how long before our Country’s Govt devlops some phony self righteous “we must save the poor Cubans from the tyranny of Fidel” Propaganda… 
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HagiaSophia
Guest
Faithful 2 Rome:
Well perhaps the presence of our Chinese friends will raise a red flag - they moved into Panama after our ill timed political maneuvers there; just try shipping lanes without the use of the Panama Canal someday---- they are now seeking to buy into Canadian oil companies so that they are on the boards of Directors and allotment commissions, if Cuba’s oil discovery is a valid one, you will see them sitting offshore from Florida and offering all kinds of “things” to our dear friend and neighbor Fidel…the world is a dangerous place and sometimes you need to look at other nations as well as a map to see what drives “policy”.I must preach this truth: Not much I agee with Father Greely on…but that article is SO Righteous it has become the first ever article by this Priest I have cut from the paper to keep…each passing day proves his words to be quite prophetic on this issue…now I hear that Cuba has struck Black Crude? If so, I wonder how long before our Country’s Govt devlops some phony self righteous “we must save the poor Cubans from the tyranny of Fidel” Propaganda…
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vern_humphrey
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Faithful 2 Rome:
You obviously hate your country to make a remark like THAT!I must preach this truth: Not much I agee with Father Greely on…but that article is SO Righteous it has become the first ever article by this Priest I have cut from the paper to keep…each passing day proves his words to be quite prophetic on this issue…now I hear that Cuba has struck Black Crude? If so, I wonder how long before our Country’s Govt devlops some phony self righteous “we must save the poor Cubans from the tyranny of Fidel” Propaganda……
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thestickman
Guest
The far, anti-freedom left continues to strangle themselves politically and unfortunately, spiritually with the falsehoods and fallacious arguments against our just action in Iraq. What is humorous is how shrill they get the closer to the elections in Iraq we are. The free elections in Iraq, IMO, invalidate any and all arguments against the removal of Saddam from power & the end of the butchers who worked for him.
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Peacemonger
Guest
This is soooooo funny. No, I take that back, it’s sad. And people like you stick have the nerve to call **me **brainwashed…I’m choking up here BaaHahahahahahahah Sorry about that. Anyway, so all those dead Americans were so that the Iraqi people could have their own “free” election! Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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gilliam
Guest
Faithful 2 Rome:
If you notice our actions, not certain propaganda, we aren’t after it.
The only countries that were after Iraqi oil were France and Russia.
If you notice our actions, not certain propaganda, we aren’t after it.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Isn’t it interesting how when we have proof of corruption, financing terrorism and so on for oil, the America-haters don’t condemn the nations that did that, but predict that the United States will do something similar in the future?
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Brad
Guest
I love the Truth. You give us spin and nonsense. Why should I like that?
The Pope NEVER EVER said this war was unjust - NEVER.
Further, anyone that claims the war is unjust is simply expressing their own opinion and is not speaking on behalf of the Church. The Catechism clearly states that the just/unjust decision is to be made by the national leader.
Your “truth” is simply your opionion - no matter how boisterous you become, your opininion cannot drown out reason.
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thestickman
Guest
I’ve observed the left seldom seems to bother with facts, direct quotes to validate their claims. I have noticed when the left is presented with factual reality which invalidates their claims they tend to either attack the source or ignore it all together and proceed blindly as if their argument hadn’t been effectively destroyed.
Btw, those elections in January are getting closer. I predict the far left will raise the supposed number of civilian deaths at American hands to over a million between now and then. They’ve been making up numbers all along so I figure they’ll be desperate enough to try and grab our attention with something made-up
Btw, those elections in January are getting closer. I predict the far left will raise the supposed number of civilian deaths at American hands to over a million between now and then. They’ve been making up numbers all along so I figure they’ll be desperate enough to try and grab our attention with something made-up
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phade
Guest
Actually, your claim about the CCC is patently false. It is not merely the decission of our national leaders to say what a just and unjust war is. If that was the case then there would be no basis for the Church to condemn the actions of the Nazi war criminals, or what the Nazi’s called counter-terror. This is because the “banal evil” of the Nazi defense is simply that there were carrying out actions their leaders told them were necessary for state security.
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Brad
Guest
Perhaps I over-generalized. The catechism states that the “The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good” when deciding whether war is just or unjust.
Those with the responsibility for the common good of their people are the national leaders.
You are saying that condemnation of specific war actions equates to declaring a war unjust - that is not the case - specific actions of war can be condemned by the Church - in which case it can be implied that the entire war is unjust - but not necessarily so.
The decision to apply the just war logic and determne whether to engage in the war actions is that of the national leader because he/she make the ultimate decisions.
The fact remains that anyone declaring the war unjust - outside of an Encyclical or Papal decree of some kind - is expressing their opinion. You cannot say the Church has declared the Iraq war unjust - that is simply an extension of some opinions of individuals inside the Church. Other individuals have different opinions.
Because there are the conditions of war - it is open for people to discuss and come to their own conclusion - and the ultimate responsibiliy falls with the national leader.
This contrasts with doctrinal and moral truths to which opposition of is sinful under all circumstances.
Here is the paragraph from the Catechism that addresses just war:
2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
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Trelow
Guest
Personally I don’t care if we are there until 3010 if that’s what it takes to establish freedom and root out militant Islam.
Some things are more important than our temporal bodies.
Some things are more important than our temporal bodies.
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JMJ_Pinoy
Guest
How dare you demean our troops and the sacrifices that they have made! :banghead: I would advise you to hold back on the sake.
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phade
Guest
I never distinguished the war crimes of the Nazi’s or their counter-insurgency war from the wars themselves. So take for example the war crime of aggression, which is invading another country without provocation, I don’t think that such war crimes are separable from the war, for if you distinguished such crimes from the war I think you would find that the war itself disolves and all that is left are the crimes you’ve decided to judge as being distinct from the war (this is not the case with all war crimes however it seems to be the case with the war(s) I brought up). Second of all, an encyclical doesn’t suddenly make a war unjust. So take for example the American use of nuclear weapons in WWII. Dropping those two bombs Japanese cities (that means we specifically targeted Japanese civillians), was condemned in the strongest terms by the Church. That the Church said it was wrong after the fact doesn’t suddenly make dropping the most distructive weapon ever constructed on civilian targets wrong. The action was wrong even before the Church condemned it. The purpose of the popes’ letters is not to provide a cop-out. Lastly, I never said anything about Iraq, however if you want to know what I think I’ll tell you. I don’t think we should have ever gone to war. The apparent reasons justifying this war are so embarassing that they aren’t really worth mentioning. Although, the Church hasn’t gone so far as to flat out condemn our actions it has been critical mentioning the things that everyone knows. Specifically, that our actions in Afganistan and Iraq have made the world more danerous on the whole and that it made the problems of terrorism worse. Unfortunately, we did go to war and so we need to deal with the situation at hand. What the U.S. should do is continue working toward stablizing the region and we should ask the E.U., U.N., and Nato countries to help in Iraq both financially and Militarily. Overall, I think if you take an honest look at the facts you will judge that our war in Iraq fails at every point of just war doctrine.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
[2309](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/2309.htm’)
The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.
Clearly, only the National Command Authority can evaluate the data (because they alone have access to it.) The role of the Church is to set forth the criteria for just war (as Paragraph 2309 does). But the Church does not maintain an intelligence system that can second guess and back stop all the national intelligence systems. Nor can the Church adequately evaluate the strategic conditions leading to the decision to go to war.
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