No Problem with Civil Unions for Catholic Church: English Bishop

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Truth is revealed to us through various sources: natural law, scripture, sacred tradition, and the magisterium of the Church.
The truth is not revealed to me that way because I am Buddhist, and your list does not iinclude the Buddhist Tripitaka. You have a right to practice your own religion, you do not have a right to force me to follow those practices that I disagree with.
The Protestants have never claimed that this is revealed truth.
They have claimed it, and they wave their Bibles around a lot when doing it. My point is that Christians have not yet agreed among themselves what is and what is not revealed truth. There is a lot of dispute going on between churches.
The Anglican Church has never said that the Monarchy’s authority over the Church is revealed truth. It was a political position that Henry VIII took and today is an obsolete one, because neither the monarchy nor the Church exercise authority over the realm.
It is an example of the bad laws that can result when religious “truths” are allowed to overly influence lawmaking.
Morally, you cannot give the same attributes to a civil partnership as you do to marriage. To do so is an injustice aganst the married state.
The state is not an arbiter of morals, the state is an arbiter of laws. You have agreed that it is not the place of the state to legislate against, say, contraception despite that being immoral for Catholics. Taxes are explicitly assigned to the purview of the state, and we do not know anything about the tax treatment of the various forms of marriage found on the Bible.
Marriage is a covenant, not a financial contract.
Here I disagree, in the UK a marriage is a legal contract conducted in front of a Registrar. At a church wedding there is a pause at the end of the service while the couple go off to the vestry to meet the Registrar and sign the legal forms. On its own the religious ceremony does not constitute a legal wedding. British Muslims may marry up to four wives in their Mosque, but the state will only recognise one, and that witnessed by a Registrar.
The financial oblgiations and rights that belong to married people are a direct result of the covenant. If you did not have the covenant, then you should not have the right to the benefits of the covenant.
Many UK weddings do not have any covenant yet they are treated the same under the law. It seems that there is more separation between the secular law and religious ceremonies in the UK than in the USA.
The state has a right to regulate taxatioin, as long as it does it for the benefit of the citizens and as long as it abides by moral law.
Whose moral law? As I said I am Buddhist, so I do not want Catholic moral law imposed on me. Neither the UK nor the US governments are in the business of legislating morality for their citizens.

rossum
 
Sure there are a few dissident priests but until now I had never thought that a Bishop would be so openly defiant of some of the most important Church teachings
KC91:

This reminds me of the response by the synod of the Canadian Bishops to Humanae Vitae. The Site with the Winnipeg Statement seemed to be the only one available on the net (I’m not joking).
Wikipedia - Winnipeg Statement
Absolute Astronomy - Winnipeg Statement
Canadian Bishops’ Statement on the Encyclical Humanae Vitae (with commentary…)
Catholic Dialog - did “Liberating Potential” undo the dissent of the Winnepeg Statement

There was a short period of time (the late 1960’s - early 1980’s) when many BISHOPS were dissenting against Church Teaching. Although almost all of the Bishops appointed by Pope John Paul II were orthodox, I’m sure a few dissenters snook through, and a few of the dissenters are still alive from the “Era of Dissent”…

Then you have those who are “Wishy-Washy” - Afraid to offend people or to “make waves”. They’re more worried about “Blending in” than preaching the Gospel of Christ. These people will compromise on almost anything in order to “Fit in” the world around them. Probably harder to deal with are those well-intentioned people who don’t want anyone to “Feel Bad”, to “Feel Rejected” or to experience a “Loss of self-esteem”.

I think this last group may do more harm than the first 2 because they’re sincerely well-intentioned. They really believe they’re compromising the Gospel of Christ and the Faith delivered to the Apostles doing out of concern for others. They don’t realize the ETERNAL HARM they’re actually doing to the sinners who need to hear the TRUTH about their lifestyle or their sheep whom they are misleading. They don’t realize that REAL LOVE tells people the TRUTH, and that ALL people deserve to be told “the Truth in Love”. They don’t realize that by refusing to point out the sinfulness of their lifestyle, they’re effectively condemning these people to hell. That isn’t LOVE!

As you can see above, we’re going to have to deal with these men for awhile. As I’m sure you know, Bishops & Priests are the first people the Devil attacks. Please pray for them if you read about them on the Internet, and try to correct them Gently, Humbly and Privately if you run into any of them in person.

That’s all I can say.

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
 
The truth is not revealed to me that way because I am Buddhist, and your list does not iinclude the Buddhist Tripitaka. You have a right to practice your own religion, you do not have a right to force me to follow those practices that I disagree with.

They have claimed it, and they wave their Bibles around a lot when doing it. My point is that Christians have not yet agreed among themselves what is and what is not revealed truth. There is a lot of dispute going on between churches.

It is an example of the bad laws that can result when religious “truths” are allowed to overly influence lawmaking.

The state is not an arbiter of morals, the state is an arbiter of laws. You have agreed that it is not the place of the state to legislate against, say, contraception despite that being immoral for Catholics. Taxes are explicitly assigned to the purview of the state, and we do not know anything about the tax treatment of the various forms of marriage found on the Bible.

Here I disagree, in the UK a marriage is a legal contract conducted in front of a Registrar. At a church wedding there is a pause at the end of the service while the couple go off to the vestry to meet the Registrar and sign the legal forms. On its own the religious ceremony does not constitute a legal wedding. British Muslims may marry up to four wives in their Mosque, but the state will only recognise one, and that witnessed by a Registrar.

Many UK weddings do not have any covenant yet they are treated the same under the law. It seems that there is more separation between the secular law and religious ceremonies in the UK than in the USA.

Whose moral law? As I said I am Buddhist, so I do not want Catholic moral law imposed on me. Neither the UK nor the US governments are in the business of legislating morality for their citizens.

rossum
Truth is truth and the same truth that has been revealed to Christiantiy is the same truth that is revealed to Buddhists.
  • we don’t steal
  • we don’t commit adultery
  • we don’t kill
  • we don’t cheat or lie
  • we don’t desecrate the body
  • we don’t destroy nature for pure profit
  • we love and honor parents
  • we love and honor justice
  • we love and honor virtue
  • we love and protect the innocent and the vulnerable
I don’t know much about Buddhism, but to the best of my knowledge, they have a high regard for chastity and the natural law.

These are truths. Disagreements between Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and others about the application of these truths are not disagreements on the truth itself. Correct me if I’m wrong about Buddhism, but to the best of my knowledge, it does ot endorse same-sex unions.

I respect that you’re Buddhist. But I don’t see Buddhism accepting same sex unions as equal to marriage. At least, this is not my understanding of Buddhist thinking on sexuality. Where we begin our journey and dialogue across faiths and philosophy on the truths that we share. both Christianity and Buddhism have very strong sexual mores. Let’s begin by protecting those mores rather than surrendering to a secular society that wants to embrace a system that allows the destruction of everything that we consider to be sacred.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Truth is truth and the same truth that has been revealed to Christiantiy is the same truth that is revealed to Buddhists.
The word “revealed” is incorrect for a Buddhist, “discovered” would be closer. The moralities of the two religions are very close, as you point out. The theologies behind them are very different.
I don’t know much about Buddhism, but to the best of my knowledge, they have a high regard for chastity and the natural law.
Natural Law is a Christian concept. There is a high regard for chastity, but a higher regard for ahimsa (non-violence). In general there is more emphasis on “You shall not kill” than on “You shall not commit adultery”.
Correct me if I’m wrong about Buddhism, but to the best of my knowledge, it does ot endorse same-sex unions.
Buddhism has the same disagreements within itself on homosexuality as Christianity. There are conservative groups arguing that it is wrong in all circumstances and liberal groups arguing that it is OK between consenting adults in a relationship. Both sides can find textual support for their position. In Buddhism there was originally no marriage ceremony and the details of marriage, number of wives allowed etc. were left to the local state.

rossum
 
Rich,

We have to be very careful here, because we run several risks. If we assume that the Church’s authority to legislate morality is only binding on Catholics, then we become the catholic church, with lower case “c”. The Church’s place in the world is for all people, not just those who physically belong to her. This takes us back to the dogma of no salvation outside the Church.

The Church has the duty to save souls, inside her physical body and outside. She also has that power given to her by Christ. This is undeniable. Therefore, even those who are not Catholic are morally bound by the moral teachings revealed through the Church. That’s how salvation reaches them. Christ uses these means to save. But if we assume that the Church’s moral revelation is only for those within her physical boundaries, then we are returning to the Old Law that the Apostles told us was abrogated. Just as salvation was not just for the Jews, it is not just for Catholics either.

When you have to codes of law, side by side, one is revealed by God and the other is created by man, and they are in conflict, you have the mandate from Christ himself to preach the Gospel. This means that you have a mandate to censure the man-made law that is in conflict with the revealed law, because that man-made law stands between man and salvation.

The other risk that you run, if you do not insist in showing how the man-made law is a lie, you run the risk of sinning against justice. In justice, every human being is entitled to be told the truth. In justice, God does have a place in the public sector. The state does not have the right to deny him this.

The rest of Br. JR’s post can be found here:
**Re: No Problem with Civil Unions for Catholic Church: English Bishop #39
**forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6199112#post6199112

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Brother JR:

Well said. I think you made all of the points that could be made. I would just like to add something I read tonight:
To satisfy the needs of this market niche, we apparently have to “juggle” with several requirements, among them:
12.1) We must hate and clearly denounce sin. We can’t love God if we don’t hate sin, and we can’t guide the herd toward good pastures without, among others, denouncing poisoned pastures.
12.2) We must love the sinners, as God loves them. Not love them as sinners, but as children of God. See among others Legal Considerations #8 and #13.
12.3) We must not let ourselves be intimidated by sinners who vociferate against this site. We must “reprove, rebuke, exhort”, even if that causes some “ears to itch” [2Tm 4:1-3; see also He 12:11; IIa-IIae, q. 114, a. 1, ad 3]. Another way of saying this is that Legal Considerations 12.1 and 12.2 are in conflict, insofar as sinners refuse to let go of their sin. The more sinners refuse to let go of their sin (and the more they try to impose their sin on others, and try to prevent Christians from trying to liberate others from sin), the more 12.1 has priority.
inquisition.ca/en/juridique.htm#s12
This may be one of the best explanations for, “Hate the sin, but love the sinner,” I’ve seen. One thing we have to remember is that this sin separates those who act on their Same Sex Attraction from God, just as any sexual activity outside the bounds of Holy Matrimony separates any of us from God. The Church’s job is to preach the Gospel of Christ, so people can come to a saving relationship with our Lord God and Savior, Jesus Christ. That means we have to tell people the Truth in Love. Sometimes the Truth may hurt, or cause one to “not feel so good”. That’s NO reason not to preach the Truth. And, That’s NO reason NOT to stand for the Truth.

To those who decide to contact the Bishop - Please remember, he is a Bishop of Christ’s Holy Catholic Church who’s been led into error. Here is a website with some suggestions:
inquisition.ca/en/serm/comment_condamner.htm

Your Brother & Servant in Christ, Michael
 
The word “revealed” is incorrect for a Buddhist, “discovered” would be closer. The moralities of the two religions are very close, as you point out. The theologies behind them are very different.

Natural Law is a Christian concept. There is a high regard for chastity, but a higher regard for ahimsa (non-violence). In general there is more emphasis on “You shall not kill” than on “You shall not commit adultery”.

Buddhism has the same disagreements within itself on homosexuality as Christianity. There are conservative groups arguing that it is wrong in all circumstances and liberal groups arguing that it is OK between consenting adults in a relationship. Both sides can find textual support for their position. In Buddhism there was originally no marriage ceremony and the details of marriage, number of wives allowed etc. were left to the local state.

rossum
Hel me and others to understand one thing here. You’re a Buddhist. To the best of my knowledge, Buddhism is not a religion, it’s a philosophy of life. Am I correct?

Whether we use terms such as revealed or discovered, the fact is that the truths that we share are not from us, but for us. They exist on their own merit. True?

Finally, why are you on a Catholic forum? It’s not illegal or forbidden. But I’m trying to understand if you’re here to learn about the Catholic faith or just to debate with it?

Here’s my logic. If you’re here to understand, they you’re in the right place. If you’re here to debate, that’s just waste of your energy and time, as well as your fellow posters. Dialogue begins with an acknowledgement of what unites us, not what separates us. Nothing shuts down a dialogue faster than bringing up the differences before you say, “Hello.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Br. JR,

The concern that I have is that as Catholics we have been told over the past few years that a Catholic can’t support Civil Unions for Gay couples as a matter of faith and morals.

Now all of a second we have a Bishop saying something completely otherwise and this has caused some scandal.

Can you definitely state whether a Catholic in good conscience can support Civil Unions for Gay Couples?
I do not believe so.

I think the Bishop badly mis-spoke himself, or was mis-spoken by someone else.
 
Hel[p] me and others to understand one thing here. You’re a Buddhist. To the best of my knowledge, Buddhism is not a religion, it’s a philosophy of life. Am I correct?
Buddhism is all and none of those, it is a dharma which does not fit exactly within those Western categories. It covers a broad range of areas, many of which are optional. Hence it can appear to be almost exclusively religious, almost exclusively philosophical and almost anywhere in between depending on which Buddhist you are talking to. Western Buddhists tend to be towards the philosophical end of the spectrum, while Eastern Buddhists tend to be more towards the religious end.
Whether we use terms such as revealed or discovered, the fact is that the truths that we share are not from us, but for us. They exist on their own merit. True?
No truth exists on its own merits, all things are contingent. A truth is a truth about something, and so is contingent on the existence of that something. One of the Three Marks in Buddhism is the absence of a soul in anything, in Buddhist philosophy this is carried over into a denial of all reification; there is truth but not Truth. See my sig for an example. Anything that exists “on its own merits” is incapable of change, and another of the Three Marks is that everything is impermanent, i.e. changing.
Finally, why are you on a Catholic forum? It’s not illegal or forbidden. But I’m trying to understand if you’re here to learn about the Catholic faith or just to debate with it?
I originally came here to debate evolution, with a sideline in non-Catholic religion. With the current moratorium on evolution threads I have more time for other topics. I have stayed because I find that the dialogue here is usually more polite than on some Protestant forums I also post on.

rossum
 
Buddhism is all and none of those, it is a dharma which does not fit exactly within those Western categories. It covers a broad range of areas, many of which are optional. Hence it can appear to be almost exclusively religious, almost exclusively philosophical and almost anywhere in between depending on which Buddhist you are talking to. Western Buddhists tend to be towards the philosophical end of the spectrum, while Eastern Buddhists tend to be more towards the religious end.

No truth exists on its own merits, all things are contingent. A truth is a truth about something, and so is contingent on the existence of that something. One of the Three Marks in Buddhism is the absence of a soul in anything, in Buddhist philosophy this is carried over into a denial of all reification; there is truth but not Truth. See my sig for an example. Anything that exists “on its own merits” is incapable of change, and another of the Three Marks is that everything is impermanent, i.e. changing.

I originally came here to debate evolution, with a sideline in non-Catholic religion. With the current moratorium on evolution threads I have more time for other topics. I have stayed because I find that the dialogue here is usually more polite than on some Protestant forums I also post on.

rossum
But if as your signature says, the ultimate truth is that there is not truth, then the ultimate truth is not true. In which case, there can be truth. The argument for the ultimate truth, as is stated in your signature is circular. That’s an invalid argument. Logic is not circular. Therefore, if that is the case, then the ultimate truth is nihilism. Man has no reason to exist, for nothing is true and nothing is stable.

If nothing is stable, then why would your traditional Buddhist defend against homosexual unions? Are they wrong to do so? It souns like they are defending the stability between the genders.

One more question that has nothing to do with this. Why would a Buddhist hang out on Christian forums, Protestant or Catholic? Why not a Buddhist one? You’re either looking for some answers or looking for a fight. Those are the only possible things you get out of hanging out here.

By the way, I don’t know about Protestant forums, because I don’t hang out there. But if CAF is more polite, God help the Protestants. :eek:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
But if as your signature says, the ultimate truth is that there is not truth, then the ultimate truth is not true.
The original source of my sig is Mark Siderits, “Thinking on Empty: Madhyamika Anti-Realism and Canons of Rationality” in S Biderman and B.A. Schaufstein, eds, Rationality In Question (1989). Dordrecht: Brill.

I have not read Siderits but saw the quote in a piece on Nagarjuna. The “Madhyamika” in Siderits’ title refers to the religious and philosophical school of Buddhism that Nagarjuna founded. I have seen the same quote again in other places in reference to the Madhyamika and Nagarjuna - it seems quite popular. The quote is intentionally paradoxical; paradox is necessary to remind us that words are insufficient when trying to describe the fundamental nature of reality.

For a philosophical discussion of Nagarjuna and reality see the web article Nagarjuna and the Limits of Thought. The Siderits quote is at the end of section four of the article:

There is, then, no escape. Nagarjuna’s view is contradictory. The contradiction is, clearly a paradox of expressibility. Nagarjuna succeeds in saying the unsayable, just as much as the Wittgenstein of the Tractatus. We can think (and characterize) reality only subject to language, which is conventional, so the ontology of that reality is all conventional. It follows that the conventional objects of reality do not ultimately (non-conventionally) exist. It also follows that nothing we say of them is ultimately true. That is, all things are empty of ultimate existence; and this is their ultimate nature, and is an ultimate truth about them. They hence cannot be thought to have that nature; nor can we say that they do. But we have just done so. As Mark Siderits (1989) has put it, “the ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.”
In which case, there can be ?no?] truth.
There is no ultimate truth, that does not mean that there is no truth. Buddhism avoids reifying truth into “ultimate truth” or “Truth”.The emptiness of emptiness is the fact that not even emptiness exists ultimately, that it is also dependent, conventional, nominal, and in the end it is just the everydayness of the everyday. Penetrating to the depths of being, we find ourselves back on the surface of things and so discover that there is nothing, after all, beneath those deceptive surfaces. Moreover, what is deceptive about them is simply the fact that we assume ontological depth lurking just beneath.

Jay Garfield, “Empty words, Buddhist philosophy and cross-cultural interpretation.” OUP 2002.
It is a mistake to search for “ultimate truth” because we would be looking for something that is not there.
If nothing is stable, then why would your traditional Buddhist defend against homosexual unions? Are they wrong to do so? It souns like they are defending the stability between the genders.
Genders are not stable. There was a time on earth when gender had not evolved. There will be a time on earth when gender will no longer exist. Even now some people are born with indeterminate gender. Gender is not an absolute. Traditional Buddhists usually quote Buddhaghosa on this; the Buddha himself was generally more relaxed about things.
One more question that has nothing to do with this. Why would a Buddhist hang out on Christian forums, Protestant or Catholic?
The anti-evolution crowd mostly hang out on the various Christian forums. My major focus is on evolution.
But if CAF is more polite, God help the Protestants.
Generally it is.

rossum
 
How would opposing civil unions show caring for their souls? Or opposing divorce or contraception show caring in regards to heterosexuals involved in any of those?
*Because as Catholics, we should speak on behalf of the Church, when it comes to morality. I totally know where you are coming from Rich–I used to think like this, myself. I think what changed my mind on it all, is that as a Catholic, I shouldn’t be ‘‘for’’ something that is based on immorality…that God is against…even if a civil union isn’t a marriage in the sense that we know it, it still shows SUPPORT for doing something immoral. Take away the words ‘union’ and ‘marriage,’ living together and sleeping with people, gay or not, is immoral…I liken it to Pilate washing his hands. He didn’t want to say yes or no…so he washed his hands of Jesus’ execution. Even though he played a huge part.

So…as Catholics, we need to stand for morality, on religious and legal matters. We shouldn’t distinguish between the two, is what I’m saying. *
 
Buddhism is all and none of those, it is a dharma which does not fit exactly within those Western categories. It covers a broad range of areas, many of which are optional. Hence it can appear to be almost exclusively religious, almost exclusively philosophical and almost anywhere in between depending on which Buddhist you are talking to. Western Buddhists tend to be towards the philosophical end of the spectrum, while Eastern Buddhists tend to be more towards the religious end.

No truth exists on its own merits, all things are contingent. A truth is a truth about something, and so is contingent on the existence of that something. One of the Three Marks in Buddhism is the absence of a soul in anything, in Buddhist philosophy this is carried over into a denial of all reification; there is truth but not Truth. See my sig for an example. Anything that exists “on its own merits” is incapable of change, and another of the Three Marks is that everything is impermanent, i.e. changing.

I originally came here to debate evolution, with a sideline in non-Catholic religion. With the current moratorium on evolution threads I have more time for other topics. I have stayed because I find that the dialogue here is usually more polite than on some Protestant forums I also post on.

rossum
*You have good points…but…
As Catholics though, we disagree. We’re looking at this from a Catholic teaching point of view, not a Buddhist’s or a relativist…so, that’s the crux of it all…if we were looking at it from a purely secular view, maybe there wouldn’t be much to it for us. But, as a Catholic, we can’t support something immoral…legal or otherwise. Just like polygamy, we can’t support…and it is illegal in the U.S. (right now) *
 
Proving, yet again, just how many of our fearless shepherds are actually spiritual descendants of Judas Iscariot.
 
Proving, yet again, just how many of our fearless shepherds are actually spiritual descendants of Judas Iscariot.
That’s a little harsh. I believe it was Aquinas who said that when you hear something that does not sound right, you must always ask yourself, not what the person said, because you know the words, but you must ask yourself, what did they mean to say?

St. Francis always said that we must never pass judgment on any bishop or superior, but only on ourselves. He was of he belief that you did not have to follow everything that you heard, but you had to hold judgment to yourself.

The Fathers of the Church always limited their statements to the argument at hand, not to the perosn.

We must keep our focus on the words that we have read in this report, always knowing that they are not coming from the speaker, but are being reported by a third source who is quoting a second source and no one is giving us much information on what was the original question or the intent of the speaker. It’s like the game of telephone.

I have not seen any other statement that clarifies or explains the context in which this statement was made.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
**Quote:
Originally Posted by KC91
Sure there are a few dissident priests but until now I had never thought that a Bishop would be so openly defiant of some of the most important Church teachings **

and this is of great concerning to us. it seems to me that since the last Council, bishops were given a great amount of power. i hear a lot, it is all up to the bishop in your area. so, i feel for those who are under a defiant bishop and cannot do nothing. so, i ask what is the Catholics to do when a bishop is defiant and leading them into the wrong path?

what happened to the all bishops must be in agreement about the things of our Lord? why is that now is all up to the bishop of the area leaving some Catholics wihtout the proper Faith. how can the Vatican allow this?
 
**Quote:
Originally Posted by KC91
Sure there are a few dissident priests but until now I had never thought that a Bishop would be so openly defiant of some of the most important Church teachings **

and this is of great concerning to us. it seems to me that since the last Council, bishops were given a great amount of power. i hear a lot, it is all up to the bishop in your area. so, i feel for those who are under a defiant bishop and cannot do nothing. so, i ask what is the Catholics to do when a bishop is defiant and leading them into the wrong path?

**what happened to the all bishops must be in agreement about the things of our Lord? ** why is that now is all up to the bishop of the area leaving some Catholics wihtout the proper Faith. how can the Vatican allow this?
I agree with this – I have wondered the same things. (bolded by me)
 
I’ve noticed that a number of Catholics here have argued in support of homosexual civil unions. In case they aren’t aware, this is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church.
The Vatican:
CONCLUSION
  1. The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behaviour or to legal recognition of homosexual unions. The common good requires that laws recognize, promote and protect marriage as the basis of the family, the primary unit of society. Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour, with the consequence of making it a model in present-day society, but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity. The Church cannot fail to defend these values, for the good of men and women and for the good of society itself.
The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, in the Audience of March 28, 2003, approved the present Considerations, adopted in the Ordinary Session of this Congregation, and ordered their publication.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

You’ll find in the full document a long series of arguments against homosexual unions. All this is the teaching of the Vatican.

Saint Cyprian, 251 AD.

“And again He says to him [Peter] after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep’ (John 21:17). On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all our shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that his is in the Church?”
 
**Quote:
Originally Posted by KC91
Sure there are a few dissident priests but until now I had never thought that a Bishop would be so openly defiant of some of the most important Church teachings **

and this is of great concerning to us. it seems to me that since the last Council, bishops were given a great amount of power. i hear a lot, it is all up to the bishop in your area. so, i feel for those who are under a defiant bishop and cannot do nothing. so, i ask what is the Catholics to do when a bishop is defiant and leading them into the wrong path?

what happened to the all bishops must be in agreement about the things of our Lord? why is that now is all up to the bishop of the area leaving some Catholics wihtout the proper Faith. how can the Vatican allow this?
Actually, the opposite is true. After Vatican II the bishops were called to great cooperation with each other and with the Apostolic See than they were before Vatican II. In fact, in Church theology and canon law, the wording that was always present to describe a bishop and his diocese was, “the local Churches”. The teaching has always been, where there is the bishop there is the Church. Therefore, bishops who are Ordinaries of a diocese have a great deal of power, not because of anything new, but because this is the meaning of Apostolic Succession. There was never a Sacred Congregation for Bishops that governed the bishops. That’s new.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Actually, the opposite is true. After Vatican II the bishops were called to great cooperation with each other and with the Apostolic See than they were before Vatican II. In fact, in Church theology and canon law, the wording that was always present to describe a bishop and his diocese was, “the local Churches”. The teaching has always been, where there is the bishop there is the Church. Therefore, bishops who are Ordinaries of a diocese have a great deal of power, not because of anything new, but because this is the meaning of Apostolic Succession. There was never a Sacred Congregation for Bishops that governed the bishops. That’s new.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Be that as it may, I think you are sugercoating what actually happened after the Council. There was a general pulling away from Roman authority, and the bishops were hesitant to fill in that gap, and so allowed all sorts of wrong things to happen. For instance, The Land o" lakes declaration in which the Catholic Colleges basically to declare their independence of the Church is one of them. If the episcopacy had been sure of its ground, the president of Notre Dame would have been forced to resign for leading this rebellion. The abandonment of their vocation by so many priests and the emptying of the seminaries stunned the Church. Ironically, the only thing that kept the Church in the USA from splitting was the confidence of the liberals that it would soon fall into their hands. The election and, even more, the charisma of John Paul II, was a blow to their ambitions.
 
Be that as it may, I think you are sugercoating what actually happened after the Council. There was a general pulling away from Roman authority, and the bishops were hesitant to fill in that gap, and so allowed all sorts of wrong things to happen. For instance, The Land o" lakes declaration in which the Catholic Colleges basically to declare their independence of the Church is one of them. If the episcopacy had been sure of its ground, the president of Notre Dame would have been forced to resign for leading this rebellion. The abandonment of their vocation by so many priests and the emptying of the seminaries stunned the Church. Ironically, the only thing that kept the Church in the USA from splitting was the confidence of the liberals that it would soon fall into their hands. The election and, even more, the charisma of John Paul II, was a blow to their ambitions.
We have to understand where the authority of the bishops begin and end. Take for example the Catholic colleges and the Lando o Lakes Declaration or Notre Dame. The bishops have no authority over Catholic colleges or universities that do not belong to the Catholic Church. Most Catholic colleges and universities are the property of religious congregations or non-profit corporations. They are Catholic; but they are not under the jurisdiction of the Church. Therefore, their cooperation with Church authority is really up to their leaders, not the bishops. The bishops want to see good things happen at all of our colleges and universities, but they don’t have the jurisdiction to interfere in the internal decisions of these institutions.

For example, Fr. Jenkins is a member of the Brothers of the Holy Cross. The Brothers are a Congregation of Pontifical Right. Only the Pope has the authority to demand his resignation. The bishops cannot do that. If they did, they would be in very serious trouble with the Holy Father for overstepping their authority. Bishops do not have authority over religiuos of Pontifical Right, only the Pope does.

A bishop has no jurisdiction over a priest who leaves the priesthood. He only has jurisdiction over those who remain, provided that the priest is a secular. If the priest is a religious, the bishop has no jurisdiction either. When a priest leaves without permission, he excommunicates himself. Once he does that, he is canonically outside of the authority and reach of the bishop. There is nothing that a bishop is allowed to do.

The “emptying seminaries” is not an area over which the bishops have authority. The bishop cannot order men to enter a seminary. His authority is limited to calling men to Holy Orders. He cannot demand that they remain or that they enter. The only ones who actually have the authority to demand that men enter the seminary are superiors of brothers communities, not bishops. In these communities, the brothers make a vow of obedience to the superior. But in the secular world, secular men do not make a vow of obedience to the bishop. Secular men make a promise of obedience to the bishop on the day that they are ordained to the diaconate, either transitional or permanent.

If the seminary belongs to the diocese, the bishop has jurisdiction over the discipline of the seminary and the formation given at the seminary, but not over the men who are students there. They are free to leave at any time until they are ordained deacons.

If it’s a house of formation, the bishop has no jurisdiction and is not even allowed oversight of it. The oversight belongs to the Superior General of the religious who study there. Bishops cannot overstep the authority of superiors of religious men or women.

We have to be careful not to blame bishops for areas that are not under their jurisdiction. Jursidiction was what go Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated. No bishop can act contrary to canon law. That is a violation of jurisdiction. Some violations of jurisdiction are more serious than others. They can carry excommunication or at the very least a reprimand from the Holy Father.

For example, if the bishop had mandated that Fr. Jenkins resign, that bishop would have been in very serious trouble with the Pope. That role is reserved to two people: the Provincial Superior of the Holy Cross Brothers and the Pope. The bishops have to be very careful what they say and how they say it. They can suggest that Fr. Jenkins resign. They can’t even ask the Provincial Superior to transfer him. The Provincial Superior of the Brothers of the Holy Cross has the same authority as a bishop. He answers to the Pope, not to the bishops.

Remember, the bishops really have authority over the laity and over secular clergy. Religious are not part of any diocese. Catholic colleges and universities are usually not part of any diocese. Often, seminaries are not part of any diocese, they are regional. They are governed by a board of regents that represent many bishops.

A good example is the apostolic visitation of the sisters. The bishops’ hands are tied because the sisters belong to Pontifical institutes. They answer to the Holy Father. If he does not call them on the carpet, the bishop cannot do it. He can invite them to talk. He can ask them not to work for his diocese. But he cannot dismantle them or their institutions.

The relationship between a bishop and secular clergy is different. They belong to his diocese. They owe him obedience in all pastoral matters. The other group that the bishop has the authority to govern is the laity. He can govern institutions that are owned by the diocese. Those he can open and close, unless they were canonically erected. Then he cannot do that. But if they were erected by the diocese, the diocese can close them.

I hope this clarifies this point.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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