No Real Presence of Jesus Christ in Protestant Churches

[Mannyfit75]

You know Manny… I really do TRULY want to give you the benefit of the doubt but with titles like the one you use here it is a hard thing to do brother… *sigh…

It absolutely breaks my heart to think that in order to feel Jesus’ presence you have to eat bread and drink wine… “Whenever two or more are gathered in my name…”

I not denying that. Jesus Spiritual Presence is there but the only thing lacking is Real Presence where you can Adore the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament in Adoration and acknowledge His real Presence.

That is what I find lacking. There is no Tabernacle in Protestant churches (where they don’t take Real Presence as literally true) like those Mega Evangelical Chruches… you don’t find them in Non-Denom, Baptist, Methodist, etc. Maybe some Protestants who close Catholic tradition (though I doubt any validity in their sacraments)

 

[ALLFORHIM]

It has absoultely nothing to do with his leaving. It has everything to do with his admonition to eat his body and drink his blood. It was obvious by his actions at the last supper that he did not intend this to be a one time thing. In addtion he is physically present at all times in our Churches.

I hold our Lord and Savior in my hands several times a week. I eat his body and drink his blood several times a week. I am at a loss as to why our seperated Bretheren walked away form this. Perhaps thats a question you can anwer for us.

Thanks. I cant really answer why they stepped away. I could could guess and say they found no biblical support for transubstantiation. I wasnt there back then. I was never raised in that belief so I havent walked away from it. I never had it to begin with. Since I do not believe in trasubstantiation, I do not feel the same way you do.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

First, I don’t have to receive the Eucharist at every Mass. I can if I want to but I don’t have too.
Second, Christ is truly present in the Eucharist so why wouldn’t I receive him more then once?

ALLFORHIM, I believe (if my memory is right), you are a parent and you have a spouse. Has your spouse ever been away for long period of times? Or at least for several days? Or a week?
I forget how old your children are, but have you ever sent them away for camp for a week?

I’ve never have sent my kids to camp. (They are too young.) However my spouse has been away for long periods of time. (At least a week) Sure I talk to him over the phone daily and emailed him daily when he’s gone. (Just like I pray, talk to God daily). However I can tell you when my hubby is back from is long trip. I can’t help but be in his arms, hugging him, kissing him, etc. I just have to touch him… because I love my husband.

Similar thing when it comes to the Eucharist. My Lord is truly, physically there in the Eucharist and I can’t help but to embrace Him, to touch Him. I get the chance to physically touch him and I do… because I love HIM so much.

Thanks for the example. I guess since I have Jesus inside me(via the HS ) I do not feel the need to have to touch him etc. All I do is ask for His comfort and love and He delivers.

P.S. Yes I have sent my oldest to christian camps but not my 8 year old. It was very hard that first time to let go. It probably wont be that difficult with my second.

 

[sosayi1960]

This is also one of the reasons I left the Catholic church (not to go to a different church, I wasn’t seduced away by anything, I chose to leave Catholicism)

I felt that the church is permeated with an unholy pride. If God or Christ chooses to reveal themselves, or to be present either in Spirit or body with anyone, anywhere, anytime…they may. Whether it is sanctioned by Catholicism or not.

I feel that the Catholic church has moved into an area that borders on magic and certainly is within the definition of superstition…that only a person blessed by a person, blessed by a person, blessed by an apostle with the magic words and chrism…can say the exact certain words to transform bread and wine(and exact recipe of bread and a certain type of wine) into the real body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

Belief, intent, honor, and respect…don’t matter. It’s all in the “magic”.

Yes, I believe in the Real Presence. I just cannot be part of an institution that crows about how “we got it and you aint”…because if Christ wants, He can certainly share himself with any and all of His creation.

And yes…I do mean “crow” because I heard it over and over and over again as a Catholic.

I suppose you believe that Christ does want to share himself with all creation…through the Catholic church. I heard plenty of that too, and how sad it was that everyone else wouldn’t swallow their pride and come,repentent, to the doors.

I’d rather not have it all, and walk humbly with the lord, than be part of an institution that is so proud of having it all, and reminding everyone else that they have only dribs and drabs. Thinking you have it all…of anything…is always dangerous territory. And most of all, when you make that claim about God.

I do not want you to leave the church Manny. I want the church to take on the mantle of humility. It is compatible with truth. Humility IS truth. God will do what God will do, with all of His creation, it is not all dependant upon the right formulas being muttered by people who had the right formula muttered over them. That is reducing God to a puppet.

I’d rather throw myself on Divine mercy outside the bounds of those sorts of teachings, than to willingly participate in that view of the Divine.

By all means, enjoy being in the real presence, but don’t get too smug about how it is denied to everyone else. Maybe God has plans for them too.

I agree with your profound statement. I have a real concern that the church has it “right” and everyone else is wrong. God cannot be put in a box. It seems to me, personally, that the church has moved from the heart of Christian teaching to the “Letter of the Law”. I would think St. Francis would be rolling in his grave.
The “humility” of the Church appears absent and has been replaced with arrogance. We,as the people of God,need Mercy.
God Bless,
Joe

 

[Mommyof02green]

Thanks for the example. I guess since I have Jesus inside me(via the HS ) I do not feel the need to have to touch him etc. All I do is ask for His comfort and love and He delivers.

P.S. Yes I have sent my oldest to christian camps but not my 8 year old. It was very hard that first time to let go. It probably wont be that difficult with my second.

So do I! I believe that I have Holy Spirit in me as well. I will not deny that. Having the Holy Spirit in me does my “spirit” good. I believe that as a person I’m so much more then spirit. I’m body too.

The ‘physical touch’ does my body good. I’m sure that if you stood face to face with Christ you would embrace him too. I mean you wouldn’t tell HIM that’s okay Lord, I don’t want or need a hug. I don’t need or want to touch you because I already have you inside me via the Holy Spirit. Would you??

edit: for typo on the word “LORD” sorry

 

[ALLFORHIM]

So do I! I believe that I have Holy Spirit in me as well. I will not deny that. Having the Holy Spirit in me does my “spirit” good. I believe that as a person I’m so much more then spirit. I’m body too.

The ‘physical touch’ does my body good. I’m sure that if you stood face to face with Christ you would embrace him too. I mean you wouldn’t tell HIM that’s okay Load, I don’t want or need a hug. I don’t need or want to touch you because I already have you inside me via the Holy Spirit. Would you??

YEAH!! No I would not deny Christ if He were physically in front of me. Although Im not a touchy feely person and generally dont like hugs , but Im working on that. Unfortunately I wasnt raised in a loving home.

Anyway, what you say is a far cry from bread and wine. This is really a HUGE HURDLE for me because I really do believe the CC took this out of context. I think it was said on this thread(you know there is so many on the topic I cant keep up )John 6 has nothing to do with the Last Supper. It has everything to do with belief in Christ. The Last Supper wasnt instituted until later.

Please everyone spare me(Im not speaking to you mommy)the explanations Ive heard them all before–just as you guys have heard then from us before:yawn:

Sorry , that is my belief

OH BTW HAPPY MOTHER’S DAY TO ALLTHE MOMMIES OUT THERE!!!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

edit: for typo on the word “LORD” sorry

I figured that was who you were talking about LOL

Thank God for editing:thumbsup:

 

[Hellisreal]

The thing I will never understand, is this. If we are interpreting this all wrong as Protestants will insist we are, then why was it all the Christians believe it as we do for 1600 years and many died for this very thing to be done, protected and continued? Then, years later EUREKA! its wrong!
Were christians just soooo plain stupid back then they did not see the light on this?

 

[Mommyof02green]

YEAH!! No I would not deny Christ if He were physically in front of me. Although Im not a touchy feely person and generally dont like hugs , but Im working on that. Unfortunately I wasnt raised in a loving home.

Anyway, what you say is a far cry from bread and wine. This is really a HUGE HURDLE for me because I really do believe the CC took this out of context. I think it was said on this thread(you know there is so many on the topic I cant keep up )John 6 has nothing to do with the Last Supper. It has everything to do with belief in Christ. The Last Supper wasnt instituted until later.

Please everyone spare me(Im not speaking to you mommy)the explanations Ive heard them all before–just as you guys have heard then from us before:yawn:

Sorry , that is my belief

OH BTW HAPPY MOTHER’S DAY TO ALLTHE MOMMIES OUT THERE!!!

I’m not going to battle over John 6.

However, that’s my point. I believe that Christ is truly physically present in the Eucharist. My personal believe is so strong that, for me, the Eucharist is the same thing as Christ physically standing in front of me.

Like you I will/would not deny Christ when He’s physically standing in front of me.

God Bless! And Happy Mother’s Day too!!

 

[cheddarsox]

The thing I will never understand, is this. If we are interpreting this all wrong as Protestants will insist we are, then why was it all the Christians believe it as we do for 1600 years and many died for this very thing to be done, protected and continued? Then, years later EUREKA! its wrong!
Were christians just soooo plain stupid back then they did not see the light on this?

now maybe it is time for you to take a closer look at history. The concept of Real Presence has always been tricky one, one that the Catholic Church has had to defend, “prove” and go to great lengths to explain, and get into the heads of the people.

It is still so.

It is beyond ridiculous to suggest that the concept was never questioned,and was accepted, believed and automatic to every Christian until Luther came along.

The Catholic Church has always, and still has a heck of a time getting it’s own to grasp and take the concept seriously…at least if these forums, and a look at the history of councils, teachings, and traditions are to be believed.

I read it here all the time, Catholics speaking about Catholics, how people don’t respect the Eucharist as the Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. They show it with their words, actions, manner of dress, lack of respect for the “rules” reguarding receiving, etc.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This was obviously posted to propagate an argument with the many non-Catholics here. You seem to be that kind of individual in the short time I have been here.

This is an apologetics board. We are here to debate, to stir things up, to give people cause to reflect. Mannyfit75 wants non-Catholics to think and to realize that all is not as it seems in their communion services. No transubtantiation, no Jesus.

Your judgement seems to be similar to the very attitude which you claim caused you to leave the Church. Is this hypocrisy?

What you have stated is an abject lie that the Catholic church has used to attempt to keep their members intact. The real truth is that Jesus is where two or more are gathered. There is nothing whatsoever in scripture that suggests that only Catholics and Orthodoxs have the real presence of Christ, nothing at all.

Either you have a valid sacrament or you don’t. It’s pretty straightforward. Does your denomination teach that Jesus is really, truly and substantially present - body, blood, soul and divinity - in the bread and wine? Or is it just a symbol?

I am absolutely sick of this badgering and it is one of the main reasons why I left the Catholic church.

Let me get this straight: there you were - believing wholeheartedly in the real presence in the Eucharist and the doctrine of transubstantiation - minding your own business, and all these obnoxious Catholics kept bothering you about something that you agreed with without reservation?

Them: “The Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.”
You: Amen!
Them: No, we really mean it…Jesus is there in the tabernacle.
You: I know. Praise God!
Them: The substance has been changed; only the accidents remain.
You: I agree. Now will you leave me alone?

Hard to imagine these folks badgering you out of the Church like this. But if you say so…

You can’t do whatever you wish to whomever you wish throughout history and just claim that God ordained it to be and if someone disagrees then they are automatically wrong. Anyone can claim to be anything but it doesn’t make it so.

And what happens when Jesus claims something to be so?

“This is my body; this is my blood. Unless you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

Jesus said it four times in John 6…was he just badgering the crowd, too?

 

[Hellisreal]

now maybe it is time for you to take a closer look at history. The concept of Real Presence has always been tricky one, one that the Catholic Church has had to defend, “prove” and go to great lengths to explain, and get into the heads of the people.

It is still so.

It is beyond ridiculous to suggest that the concept was never questioned,and was accepted, believed and automatic to every Christian until Luther came along.

The Catholic Church has always, and still has a heck of a time getting it’s own to grasp and take the concept seriously…at least if these forums, and a look at the history of councils, teachings, and traditions are to be believed.

I read it here all the time, Catholics speaking about Catholics, how people don’t respect the Eucharist as the Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. They show it with their words, actions, manner of dress, lack of respect for the “rules” reguarding receiving, etc.

It is not ridiculous. Which Christians denied it prior to the Eureka moment?

Tell me I am all ears.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We have the sacrament of baptism, which even the Catholic Church acknowledges is valid. So we do have the sacraments.

Well, one out of seven is better than none, I guess.

In Rome’s opinion. The Anglican Church, of course, has a different opinion, as does Orthodoxy when it comes to the Pope.

Sure they do. What else can they say? However, communion with the Chair of Peter has always been the true test, hasn’t it?

I suspect having Jesus in spiritual form is more than enough, and more than any of us deserve.

True. But that’s obviously not all He intended.

Why would you even consider leaving?

It was a rhetorical question.

Who has asked you to leave? And where two or three are gathered - Jesus is there. By the mystery and power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus is everpresent in our lives, and never leaves us orphaned.

Amen! But in the Eucharist, we have Jesus really, truly and substantially present.

And you say “Not one.” Not one what?

O+

Not one Protestant Church has a validly consecrated Eucharist, therefore, not one Protestant truly receives the Lord - body, blood, soul and divinity - in their communion bread and cup.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

This is also one of the reasons I left the Catholic church (not to go to a different church, I wasn’t seduced away by anything, I chose to leave Catholicism)

I felt that the church is permeated with an unholy pride. If God or Christ chooses to reveal themselves, or to be present either in Spirit or body with anyone, anywhere, anytime…they may. Whether it is sanctioned by Catholicism or not.

I feel that the Catholic church has moved into an area that borders on magic and certainly is within the definition of superstition…that only a person blessed by a person, blessed by a person, blessed by an apostle with the magic words and chrism…can say the exact certain words to transform bread and wine(and exact recipe of bread and a certain type of wine) into the real body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

Belief, intent, honor, and respect…don’t matter. It’s all in the “magic”.

Yes, I believe in the Real Presence. I just cannot be part of an institution that crows about how “we got it and you aint”…because if Christ wants, He can certainly share himself with any and all of His creation.

And yes…I do mean “crow” because I heard it over and over and over again as a Catholic.

I suppose you believe that Christ does want to share himself with all creation…through the Catholic church. I heard plenty of that too, and how sad it was that everyone else wouldn’t swallow their pride and come,repentent, to the doors.

I’d rather not have it all, and walk humbly with the lord, than be part of an institution that is so proud of having it all, and reminding everyone else that they have only dribs and drabs. Thinking you have it all…of anything…is always dangerous territory. And most of all, when you make that claim about God.

I do not want you to leave the church Manny. I want the church to take on the mantle of humility. It is compatible with truth. Humility IS truth. God will do what God will do, with all of His creation, it is not all dependant upon the right formulas being muttered by people who had the right formula muttered over them. That is reducing God to a puppet.

I’d rather throw myself on Divine mercy outside the bounds of those sorts of teachings, than to willingly participate in that view of the Divine.

By all means, enjoy being in the real presence, but don’t get too smug about how it is denied to everyone else. Maybe God has plans for them too.

Is it really pride?

Or is this “we have it and you don’t” thing, just a clarification of fact that is required in light of the incessant drumbeat of anti-Catholic rhetoric found not only in the secular world but ingrained deeply in most if not all Protestant denominations?

I’m sure that it sounds like the former to those who “don’t” have “it”, but “it” is a consequence of what the Church is - namely, the Body of Christ, and if the claims sound “big” then that reflects the “big” things that God has done in building His Church upon that Rock as he promised so long ago.

The mighty walls of a city look imposing to those attacking from the outside, but they are comforting to those protected on the inside.

You might consider changing your vantage point.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

I see no point in arguing.

That’s never stopped you before!

Folks, this is an apologetics forum!

 

[Hellisreal]

Bump for ceddarsox

 

[cheddarsox]

Is it really pride?

Or is this “we have it and you don’t” thing, just a clarification of fact that is required in light of the incessant drumbeat of anti-Catholic rhetoric found not only in the secular world but ingrained deeply in most if not all Protestant denominations?

I’m sure that it sounds like the former to those who “don’t” have “it”, but “it” is a consequence of what the Church is - namely, the Body of Christ, and if the claims sound “big” then that reflects the “big” things that God has done in building His Church upon that Rock as he promised so long ago.

The mighty walls of a city look imposing to those attacking from the outside, but they are comforting to those protected on the inside.

You might consider changing your vantage point.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Maybe you should read a little more closely. I was a Catholic, that was my vantage point. I left because of the unholy pride on the INSIDE.

No one seduced me away, or told me ugly things about Catholicism. I experienced the things as an insider, and fled them.

I don’t go around attacking or bashing Catholicism, or trying to lure people away.

But, when asked, I do give my opionion, based on my experience.

cheddar

 

[Randy_Carson]

You constantly quote John 6 out of context…The context of John 6 is to believe in Him.

This is a false interpretation of the passage.

Grasping at Straws: John 6:63

“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken are spirit and they are life.”(John 6:63)

These words were spoken by Jesus shortly after delivering his teaching on the Eucharist, and some people claim that they indicate that Jesus was speaking figuratively when he commanded us to eat his body and drink his blood. However, this would be a misunderstanding of what Jesus meant when he said,“the flesh counts for nothing.”

First, notice that whenever Jesus referred to his own body and blood, he said"my flesh"or"the flesh of the Son of Man". Here are the examples:

“This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” (John 6:51)

"Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.” (John 6:53-56)

At this point, the narrative explains that the disciples were on the verge of revolt over this teaching. It is at this point that Jesus tells them that they cannot understand this teaching with their natural minds. Here is the verse in context: “On hearing it, many of his disciples said, ‘This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?’ Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, ‘Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.’” (John 6:60-63)

In John 6:63, Jesus uses the phrase “the flesh” instead of “my flesh” or “the flesh of the Son of Man” because he is not talking about his own body; he is referring to natural man. Man is a tripartite being composed of Spirit, Soul (or mind) and Body/Flesh. Our flesh is that created, corruptible part of us; the spirit is that which is capable of relating to God and receiving his revelation, and the mind/soul is the union of spirit and body. Here are some scriptures that illustrate this:

“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being nephesh – soul].” (Genesis 2:7) (dust is the body, breath of life - pneuma - is the spirit, living being is the soul) Jesus tells the grumbling Jews (who can’t understand how he would give them his flesh to eat) that they cannot grasp it with their natural minds because it is a mystery beyond the ability of “the flesh” to understand. This is the same manner of speaking used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 & 3 when he is distinguishing between fleshly or carnal Christians and those who are discern the things of God with their spirits.

Second, it might be worth noting the obvious fact that Jesus cannot be saying that HIS own flesh “counts for nothing” otherwise his death upon the cross would be meaningless. Instead, we know that his own body, his flesh, was broken and pierced for our sake; no Christian would deny that. Therefore, since HIS flesh does count for something, he must have been referring to “flesh” other than his own in v. 63.

Thus, the one verse that many Protestants cling to as an argument against the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist does not mean what they falsely claim it means. Ironically, their “proof text” points out precisely why they cannot understand the Eucharist: they are using their flesh instead of their spirits to discern the things of God. Unfortunately, their flesh “counts for nothing”.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Hellisreal]

Dear Cheddarsox,

are you avoiding answering my question?

You made the accusation that what I stated was “ridicuous”

Please back this up and tell me which Christians denied it prior to the Reformation?

 

[Randy_Carson]

You constantly quote John 6 out of context…The context of John 6 is to believe in Him.

Are you suggesting that by saying that “the flesh counts for nothing”, Jesus was explaining that he was only speaking metaphorically of “eating his flesh”?

Aside from the matter of Jesus’ use of the phrase, “the flesh” instead of “my flesh” in this passage, there are other serious problems with your interpretation.

What did Jesus say precisely in John 6?

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.”

What flesh is he referring to? If Jesus is speaking symbolically, then he cannot be referring to his literal body and blood, correct?

Yet, what had he told them just a moment before about his flesh?

50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Come, let us reason together. When did Jesus give himself for the life of the world? On the cross at Calvary. So, Jesus has said, “This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world on the cross at Calvary.”

Did Jesus really and truly die on Calvary? Or was that just a symbol of His body which was nailed to the cross? Was his death just a metaphor? Hardly.

Therefore, the flesh and blood that Jesus spoke of in John 6 are his very real body and blood which would later be crucified and shed upon the cross for the life of the world.

The passover in Exodus with the shedding of the Lamb’s blood and the eating of its flesh prefigured the greater shedding of the Lamb’s blood and the eating of the Eucharist.

The miracle of the loaves and the fishes distributed by the Apostles prefigured the greater Eucharist consecrated by those same Apostles.

The Bread of Life discourse prefigured the Eucharist.

The Book of Revelation depicts a Lamb appearing as one slain as a reference to Jesus, the eternal victim and Paschal sacrifice.

It’s all about the Eucharist. It’s all about the Lamb.

You have to eat the Lamb or you have no life in you.

Hope this helps. :tiphat: