C
Cat_Herder
Guest
What if they never even know who Jesus is?
What about victims of abortion?
What about the mentally retarded?
The illiterate?
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
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What about victims of abortion?
What about the mentally retarded?
The illiterate?
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
B
Born_Warrior
Guest
[No message]
B
Born_Warrior
Guest
What if they never even know who Jesus is?
**Why are their missionaries and why should we evangelize? Wouldn’t it be safer to say nothing to them if they go to heaven if they never heard of Christ? **
What about victims of abortion? What about the mentally retarded?
**
I don’t know. There is no hard biblical references on this.**
The illiterate?
How is this an excuse. There have been millions of Christians in history who have never been able to read. I would imagine that for a majority of Christianity’s history most Christians were illiterate.
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
Because Jesus told us to do it. It does not follow that those who never see a missionary are damned as a result.Why are their missionaries and why should we evangelize?
B
Born_Warrior
Guest
Yes, that is true. The law was modified to let sons and grandchildren of Jewish men in. But those people still had Jewish blood in them. There were Messianic Jews who had not one drop of Jewish blood in them or married to a traditional Jew and they could not go to Israel under the Law of Return. They could move there if they wanted, but could not get automatic citizenship (which the Law of Return does). Now they can (since 2008 in a Supreme Court ruling). Messianic Jews where excluded before under the conversion clause, which said Jews who had converted could not use the Law of Return. However, the clause was found null and void for those Messianic Jews who never were Jewish before becoming Messianic Jews.
My wife is Jewish. Her and I could go to Israel under the Law of Return even though I am not Jewish. If she converted to something else besides Judaism she couldn’t use the Law of Return.
My wife is Jewish. Her and I could go to Israel under the Law of Return even though I am not Jewish. If she converted to something else besides Judaism she couldn’t use the Law of Return.
B
Born_Warrior
Guest
Show me where it says in the Bible those that have never heard of Jesus will not go to Hell. Jesus said you can only go to heaven through Him, not through Him or if you never heard of Him.Because Jesus told us to do it. It does not follow that those who never see a missionary are damned as a result.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 20:11-14[/BIBLEDRB]Show me where it says in the Bible those that have never heard of Jesus will not go to Hell.
Of course. Notice Who is on the throne.Jesus said you can only go to heaven through Him,
That part is your tradition of men.not through Him or if you never heard of Him
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear Cat Herder,[BIBLEDRB]Rev 20:11-14[/BIBLEDRB]
Of course. Notice Who is on the throne.
That part is your tradition of men.
Cordial greetings.
Born Warrior has surely made a correct observation respecting the fate of the un-evangelised. In any event, St. Paul would seem to settle this whole question in Romans 2: 14-15, where he argues strongly in favour of the un-evangelised not being saved outside the bosom of the Catholic Church, since each man is endowed with the light of conscience and thus cannot plead that he is invincibly ignorant. True, he may not have the luxury of divine revelation in all its fullness, but he does, nonetheless, have the requirements of God’s natural law written upon his heart - there is at least a point of contact. Therefore the pagan who has never heard of God’s law (or perhaps even if there is a God) is still accountable because he is able to distinguish right from wrong and his conscience is that innate faculty that passes its independent judgement upon his conduct. Indeed, this is a clear evidence of man’s indestructable moral nature, and evinces that God does bear witness to Himself in man’s heart.
If then the imperfect witness of man’s conscience is sufficient to convict him of his sinful behaviour, how much more will the divine Author of conscience condemn it? The fact is that those who have not heard of Christ or the Gospel will be judged, but they will be judged in accordance with the illumination that they have enjoyed. Thus if they have been bereft of the benefit of divine revelation they will be judged on the basis of the light of conscience and natural law morality - but they will be without excuse and their disobedience to God’s law will be sufficient to secure their eternal condemnation; “All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law” (Rom. 2: 12). St. Paul is quite unequivocal here, “All who have sinned without the law (divine revelation) will also perish (eternal condemnation) without the law” (parenthetical additions mine).
Interestingly, in the previous chapter of the epistle to the Romans, St. Paul distinctly affirms that men may know of God’s power and majesty from the created order which they simply cannot fail to behold daily. Now this knowledge of God’s created power renders men responsible whether they have heard the Gospel or not; indeed the apostle specifically says that they are “without excuse” (Rom. 1: 20). It is because the unseen things of God are, so to speak, clearly seen, that men cannot plead that they are inoccently ignorant for not glorifying their Maker. In point of fact, St. Paul specifically states that men did know God (v. 21) but, on account of inborn sin, did not wish to retain this knowledge but rather prefered to banish it from thier minds. The result was that their hearts were darkened and they degenerated into all manner of sin and vice, as the remaining section of this chapter makes abundantly clear.
The law of God is ineradicably imprinted upon man’s consciousness so that he can never sin with a clear conscience and for this reason he will always be responsible for his sins, irrespective of whether or not he has heard of Christ or the Gospel
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear Cat Herder,Because Jesus told us to do it. It does not follow that those who never see a missionary are damned as a result.
Cordial greetings.
As I have stated in my previous post to you, there is sufficient knowledge in all men subsequent to the Fall to be criminally accountable for their sins, for according to St. Paul they have supressed the truth that they have both received and understood. Every man has received the law of God in one form or another and every man has broken it in one way or another. This is the fundamental problem which faces all men as they move swiftly towards the Day of Judgement. Of course God desires that all men should be saved and come to a knowledge of Gospel truth, for that was the object of the Redemption of Christ, nevertheless not all men will be saved as Sacred Scripture also makes perfectly clear. God does not permit any man to be eternally lost without, in His own way, seeking to first win him. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that when the time arrives to depart this life, every man has been afforded an opportunity to hear the Gospel tidings and granted sufficient light to either have accepted or rejected his Maker, so that he is fully responsible to Him.
The missionary mandate of the Church would actually loose all its force if non-Catholics and non-Christians could be saved apart from the hearing of the Gospel; there really would be a disincentive to seek converts at home and send missionaries abroad. It is because only the Christian Gospel is salvific that Christ told the apostles and their successors to “go and make disciples of all nations” (St. Matt. 28: 19, 20). The Catholic Faith alone has all of Christ’s teachings and all the means of salvation and that is why it is imperative that we spare no effort to evangelise the un-evangelised. This chimes with what St. Paul said to the Romans respecting those who had not heard the Gospel: "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But how are men to call upon them in whom they have not believed? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?..So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ (Rom. 10: 13-17). This truth is wonderfully exemplified by the account of the Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts 8), where God ensured that this good man and seeker after truth had the opportunity of having both Jesus preached to him and baptism to regenerate him and make him a member of the Catholic Church. Now surely all this is very far removed from the erroneous belief that men can be saved without hearing the Gospel and in their own pagan religions. Moreover, how on earth does one square the biblical insistence and necessity on hearing the Gospel (Rom. 10: 17) with the silly Rahnerian notion of ‘anonymous Christians’?
There has been too much maudlin sentiment expressed since Vatican II about the unevangelised and non-Christian religions. Too many have, alas, fallen into the trap of weaving their theology into a pattern determined only by what is emotionally acceptable and intellectually reasonable, thus moving outiside the boundaries of Sacred Scripture and Tradition into the realms of liberal speculation.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Again,
People are reading this passage as fundamentalists, literalists.
Put another way, the Church has the fullness of ‘helps’ of finding God and coming to know Him in a total way. It is not condemning either those who are not Catholic. All mankind can find God in nature and reason. Any person on the path of good will towards his neighbor is on the path to salvation and eternal life.
But the Church takes the Word of God in its entire context, it provides us with shepherds that help illuminate the Gospel in every and all times, and nurtures us the presence of Christ Himself in His sacraments, as well as guiding us into wholesome spirituality.
People can find various aspects on the nurturance of the Church in a number of gifts or helps in their own life. But the Church provides the complete help, guidance and support, while recognizing that God alone is the author of our salvation.
People are reading this passage as fundamentalists, literalists.
Put another way, the Church has the fullness of ‘helps’ of finding God and coming to know Him in a total way. It is not condemning either those who are not Catholic. All mankind can find God in nature and reason. Any person on the path of good will towards his neighbor is on the path to salvation and eternal life.
But the Church takes the Word of God in its entire context, it provides us with shepherds that help illuminate the Gospel in every and all times, and nurtures us the presence of Christ Himself in His sacraments, as well as guiding us into wholesome spirituality.
People can find various aspects on the nurturance of the Church in a number of gifts or helps in their own life. But the Church provides the complete help, guidance and support, while recognizing that God alone is the author of our salvation.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear KathleenGee,Again,
People are reading this passage as fundamentalists, literalists.
Put another way, the Church has the fullness of ‘helps’ of finding God and coming to know Him in a total way. It is not condemning either those who are not Catholic. All mankind can find God in nature and reason. Any person on the path of good will towards his neighbor is on the path to salvation and eternal life.
But the Church takes the Word of God in its entire context, it provides us with shepherds that help illuminate the Gospel in every and all times, and nurtures us the presence of Christ Himself in His sacraments, as well as guiding us into wholesome spirituality.
People can find various aspects on the nurturance of the Church in a number of gifts or helps in their own life. But the Church provides the complete help, guidance and support, while recognizing that God alone is the author of our salvation.
Cordial greetings.
Can you explain please where you feel that my elucidation of the Romans passages are way off beam or that I am approaching them in a fundamentalist/literalist manner. What do you think the texts that I have cited mean?
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Not referring to yours…
What I am referring to is the Council of Trent and that reference of no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
What I am drawing on is the Second Vatican Council as well as references to St. Paul and the Catholic Catechism…nature and the human being --our own openness to goodness, truth and beauty, 'freedom and the voice of conscience.
As St. Paul said in Romans 1:19-20: ‘For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.’
People can choose right from wrong, good from bad every day of their life. But it is only through Faith that one can find God.
People are on the path to salvation choosing right over wrong, choosing to do good instead of bad. But the fullness of faith about God is found in the Catholic Church…
What I am referring to is the Council of Trent and that reference of no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
What I am drawing on is the Second Vatican Council as well as references to St. Paul and the Catholic Catechism…nature and the human being --our own openness to goodness, truth and beauty, 'freedom and the voice of conscience.
As St. Paul said in Romans 1:19-20: ‘For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.’
People can choose right from wrong, good from bad every day of their life. But it is only through Faith that one can find God.
People are on the path to salvation choosing right over wrong, choosing to do good instead of bad. But the fullness of faith about God is found in the Catholic Church…
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear KathleenGee,Not referring to yours…
What I am referring to is the Council of Trent and that reference of no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
What I am drawing on is the Second Vatican Council as well as references to St. Paul and the Catholic Catechism…nature and the human being --our own openness to goodness, truth and beauty, 'freedom and the voice of conscience.
As St. Paul said in Romans 1:19-20: ‘For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.’
People can choose right from wrong, good from bad every day of their life. But it is only through Faith that one can find God.
People are on the path to salvation choosing right over wrong, choosing to do good instead of bad. But the fullness of faith about God is found in the Catholic Church…
Cordial greetings and my apologies for the misunderstanding.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Fundamentalists/literalists approach our texts the same way. They also do not understand the Catholic understanding of the nature and mission of the Church, and thus misinterpreted acccording to their ways.
A Catholic and Jew relate to Scripture and to the social dimension of our faith/church the same way…it is lived out and connected to the world around us…and we have much more flexibility than people realize.
I am not walking around with doctrines and rules and regulations in my head. My faith is centered on the living relationship with Jesus Christ actualized by the sacraments.
Or, I see non-Catholics use our texts and then take them out of context, in a way to debate, but also ineffective because first of all, they are not standing on the same construct or manner of relating to God and Scripture and Church as we do…ours is mystical.
One is saying using one part of the catechism that a non-baptized is condemned to hell, and that means the unborn and infants…
A Catholic and Jew relate to Scripture and to the social dimension of our faith/church the same way…it is lived out and connected to the world around us…and we have much more flexibility than people realize.
I am not walking around with doctrines and rules and regulations in my head. My faith is centered on the living relationship with Jesus Christ actualized by the sacraments.
Or, I see non-Catholics use our texts and then take them out of context, in a way to debate, but also ineffective because first of all, they are not standing on the same construct or manner of relating to God and Scripture and Church as we do…ours is mystical.
One is saying using one part of the catechism that a non-baptized is condemned to hell, and that means the unborn and infants…
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