No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[rev_kevin]

No offense,brother in Christ,but the last sentence is not true at all. And how do you know without a doubt you have been forgiven? You don’t!

I don’t doubt God when he said he will forgive us of our sins. If I can’t trust God to forgive me, if I can’t trust him to keep his word, then who can I trust, Man?

Show me where Jesus, himself, said We had to go through a priest for our sins to be forgiven.

 

[Shin]

I noticed something you said. “The way the priesthood passes on for Catholics is similar to the way the priesthood was passed on for Jews.” Now it could be similar because they knew no other way but the Jewish way. And now we know different ways.

I noticed another thing you said. “…and picked his priesters and ministers.” See I have to agree with you here. God picks his priests and ministers. Both are picked by God to do his work here on earth, both are santified by God to do his ministry work. Not just priests or the CC.

Yes Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for our sins. He made it possible for our sins to be forgiven. Not through confessing sins to a priest but to ask God for forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Not through a priest. Jesus never said that your sins will be forgiven if you go through a priest then he comes to me. No no he said no such thing.

Well, if you’re unwilling to try to read things with a mind open to that possibility, to search out and see how it stands, if it were true, how would you know it were true? And so, then, by your own fault you would not know.

 

[rev_kevin]

This morning after prayer, I began reflecting on the priesthood…Christ said there were those chosen for His kingdom who did not marry, the apostles – once they began their ministry – had their wives accompany them, but no longer as wives but as sisters…because the mission of Christ was now to be made manifest through them in the power of the Advocate, of Whom Christ promised.

The evening of Resurrection Sunday, Jesus appeared to the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins. Catholics believe that every word of Scripture, no matter how insignificant, is relate to the whole message of Salvation. Christ did not waste His words, and He incarnated the Church through the Apostles…When we confess our sins to God, we are confessing them to Jesus Christ. But before us, we see a human face – good psychology at that and an avoidance of introversion, scruples and uncertainty – but a man totally consecrated to God and in God.

I go in, I don’t like really to go to confession, but do so. I see my pastor and know his human frailty, but I am confessing my sins to Christ. The event is very ordinary and normal and usually with little felt emotion. But when I am absolved of sin and blessed, I no longer experience the presence of my pastor, but the actual presence of God Himself and the profound sacred.

The sacraments are concrete…no debating, dissension, confusion, mixing up of words.

Every priest I know and of what I have heard…they are happy with their choice to follow the Lord.

But the biggest factor is that every single one knows he is not worthy of being Christ’s ministers. Not a single one. It was a calling that came to them…some as young as 4 or 5 years old…yes, every priest did not feel worthy to be one of Christ’s ministers of His Body and Blood.

Just pondering the Word of God without the incarnation of the sacraments,especially confession and the Eucharist…does not bear life for me…The Word of God is united with confession and the Eucharist.

I’m puzzled here, if they are no longer the wives of the apostles but sisters then were they divorced? How can one be a wife to their husband one day and a sister to the husband the next day?

 

[Shin]

Ah, because the apostles embraced lives of celibacy…

Throughout the history of the Church, those who are priests are either celibate, or at least continent on the days when they celebrate mass…

St. Paul explicitly says that those who have wives should live as if they have none, and that virginity is preferable…

And so too it is said the priests of the Old Testament were required to live away from their wives during their Temple ministry.

It is not a divorce to be married and live as brother and sister, but a life like the Holy Family, such lives are often called Josephite marriages.

 

[rev_kevin]

Well, if you’re unwilling to try to read things with a mind open to that possibility, to search out and see how it stands, if it were true, how would you know it were true? And so, then, by your own fault you would not know.

What???
What are you talking about???

 

[Shin]

What???
What are you talking about???

“Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (Jn 20:22–23).

Is pretty clear… I was saying if you’re unwilling to try to see it from the perspective of it saying something different than you think, and weigh that unbiasedly… even if it, in and of itself is negative to a position you favor… you’d be undercutting your own self’s impartial pursuit of the truth wherever it lies…

 

[rev_kevin]

Ah, because the apostles embraced lives of celibacy…

Throughout the history of the Church, those who are priests are either celibate, or at least continent on the days when they celebrate mass…

St. Paul explicitly says that those who have wives should live as if they have none, and that virginity is preferable…

And so too it is said the priests of the Old Testament were required to live away from their wives during their Temple ministry.

It is not a divorce to be married and live as brother and sister, but a life like the Holy Family, such lives are often called Josephite marriages.

OK. I’m not going to comment on this one.

 

[rev_kevin]

“Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (Jn 20:22–23).

Is pretty clear… I was saying if you’re unwilling to try to see it from the perspective of it saying something different than you think, and weigh that unbiasedly… even if it, in and of itself is negative to a position you favor… you’d be undercutting your own self’s impartial pursuit of the truth wherever it lies…

OK we all the the power to forgive sins of one who sins against us. And if we forgive them then they are forgiven and if we don’t forgive them then they are retained. You want me to see things your way only and don’t like it when someone sees things differently. Have you ever forgave someone? Have you ever asked for someone’s forgiveness?

Well practice what you preach, if you’re unwilling to try to see it from the perspective of it saying something different than you think, and weight that unbiasedly, even if it, in and of itself is negative to a position you favor… you’de be undercutting your own self’s impartial pursuit of the truth wherever it lies. Please don’t lecture me because I don’t see it the way you would like me to see it.

 

[Shin]

I don’t mean to lecture, I’m just saying… a whole lot of people see it differently, and have for a long long time… and I think the flat most literal sense of it is clearly in that context not broad based, but to the apostles.

Don’t you think that it being restricted to the apostles is more strong from the context? It doesn’t negate your argument to admit a weak point.

 

[rev_kevin]

I don’t mean to lecture, I’m just saying… a whole lot of people see it differently, and have for a long long time… and I think the flat most literal sense of it is clearly in that context not broad based, but to the apostles.

Don’t you think that it being restricted to the apostles is more strong from the context? It doesn’t negate your argument to admit a weak point.

Don’t get me wrong, I see what you are saying. I don’t believe it was restricted to the apostles since we all have the power to forgive someone who sinned against us. But ultimitly its God who does the forgiving, he’s the one who has the final word.

 

[Shin]

I agree, ultimately God does the forgiving…

We’re just talking about means and methods here He uses really…

Let me tell you, when people confess their sins it does a lot for them in the way of getting past them. Life changing stuff.

And I can say from my own personal experience, when I received absolution for the first time, it felt like a gigantic anvil came off my back. I didn’t know it was there before because it had been there for so long – but when it was gone, I was lighter than air. That’s the power of a priest. To judge sins and repentance, and to dispense forgiveness on this earth, or correct sinners so they can turn and gain it.

 

[Vico]

I don’t doubt God when he said he will forgive us of our sins. If I can’t trust God to forgive me, if I can’t trust him to keep his word, then who can I trust, Man?

Show me where Jesus, himself, said We had to go through a priest for our sins to be forgiven.

Here is what the Catholic Church teaches on forgivness of sins: that perfect contrition is sufficient, but that the conditions for salvation are not often found for those without the Sacrament of Penance.

Baltimore Catechism (1891 A.D. version)
Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person: Has been validly baptized; Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.
Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.
Q. 765. What is perfect contrition?
A. Perfect contrition is that which fills us with sorrow and hatred for sin, because it offends God, who is infinitely good in Himself and worthy of all love.
Q. 766. When will perfect contrition obtain pardon for mortal sin without the Sacrament of Penance?
A. Perfect contrition will obtain pardon for mortal sin without the Sacrament of Penance when we cannot go to confession, but with the perfect contrition we must have the intention of going to confession as soon as possible, if we again have the opportunity.

 

[stormy99]

I agree, ultimately God does the forgiving…

We’re just talking about means and methods here He uses really…

Let me tell you, when people confess their sins it does a lot for them in the way of getting past them. Life changing stuff.

And I can say from my own personal experience, when I received absolution for the first time, it felt like a gigantic anvil came off my back. I didn’t know it was there before because it had been there for so long – but when it was gone, I was lighter than air. That’s the power of a priest. To judge sins and repentance, and to dispense forgiveness on this earth, or correct sinners so they can turn and gain it.

**I so agree with you…until my first confession and absolution I didn’t know the weight I carried and then it was gone…and I felt free and light…all the night time confessions to God on my knees didn’t do what our priest did when he gave me absolution…it’s powerful

stormy**

 

[KathleenGee]

Amen!

The sacrament of confession is the sacrament of Christ, His continued concrete work present in His Church. We should always go to our brother to ask forgiveness of any transgressions.

Daily Mass provides us absolution of ordinary sin before the Scripture readings. But yes, when we are in a state of mortal sin, we cannot be restored to the Sacrament of the Eucharist without going to the sacrament of confession.

So if we are going to belong to Christ’s Church, we also enjoy the benefits of His presence through the Mass and the sacraments. Ordinary Resurrection Sunday provides the same manifestation of Christ as He was on Resurrection Sunday 2,000 years ago.

Our bishops have the same power and presence of the Holy Spirit as did the original apostles. They have the power to ordain priests to be ministers of the Blood of Christ. The seat of the Holy Father has the keys to the Blood of Christ, and when this succession is broken, also is Christ’s power to turn ordinary bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

The sacraments are actual, concrete, and accepted in faith. You either believe Christ is working within them or you do not.

 

[KathleenGee]

And also, in my previous post, I stated that we enter into the confessional to tell Christ our sins, not man.

We are not the ones following a man made religion.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t doubt God when he said he will forgive us of our sins. If I can’t trust God to forgive me, if I can’t trust him to keep his word, then who can I trust, Man?

Show me where Jesus, himself, said We had to go through a priest for our sins to be forgiven.

This should help you. What the Apostles did they did because of the Power given to them by Jesus. But they also learned from him here on earth.

Here is the scripture you asked for though.

To begin with, lets agree on one thing, that I believe we can. An unclean spirit is sin. Now go to:

Mark 3: 14-15 He appointed twelve (the apostles) that they might be with him and he might send them forth to preach, and to HAVE AUTHORITY to DRIVE OUT DEMONS.

So now you must ask yourself do you believe that Jesus Christ had the authority to forgive sin (drive out demons)? If you answer yes to that, then do you believe Jesus Christ had that authority to extend that power to his Apostles as the Scripture says?

Now lets say you are right and the Church is wrong in saying we need the Apostles to forgive our sins. Then why did Jesus forgive Mans sins when he was here on earth, and why did he extend that power to the Apostles, and read the scripture, only 12, does the scripture say he extended that authority to. Now why would Jesus do that if we could all go to God ourself? Do you think that people could not go to God in private and confess in those days also. Just because God made Man (Jesus) walked on this earth at that time, was he still not everywhere? Of course he was. But he made the rules not the Church. Now why did he do that?

Now see thats one thing I do not even think the Pope can answer for you. The only thing the Pope answer is that he did indeed do it, but WHY we do not know. Only God does.

But when Jesus gave them the power, at the time he only gave it to the 12 men. Why? If we could all forgive sin, and God could why did Jesus forgive sins on earth? Simple he choose it to be that way. Why would he just not say pray and ask my Father for forgiveness of your sins. But he didn’t he touched them and said your sins are forgiven, he commanded the demons to come out.

Now back to the 12 thats very important. He only extended that power to them at the time as I stated, He was quite selective do you not agree on who he gave the power to?

Then remember later in scripture what it says. In:

1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the GIFT you have, which was CONFERRED ON YOU through the prophetic word with the IMPOSITION OF HANDS of the PRESBYTERATE.

Now continue on and it will remind you of Jesus picking only the 12 at that time.
1 Tim 5: 22. Do not LAY hands TOO READILY on anyone. See Jesus told them to be very selective also.

Timothy’s final warning. O Timothy GUARD what has been entrusted TO YOU.

 

[rev_kevin]

Here is what the Catholic Church teaches on forgivness of sins: that perfect contrition is sufficient, but that the conditions for salvation are not often found for those without the Sacrament of Penance.

Baltimore Catechism (1891 A.D. version)
Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person: Has been validly baptized; Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.
Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.
Q. 765. What is perfect contrition?
A. Perfect contrition is that which fills us with sorrow and hatred for sin, because it offends God, who is infinitely good in Himself and worthy of all love.
Q. 766. When will perfect contrition obtain pardon for mortal sin without the Sacrament of Penance?
A. Perfect contrition will obtain pardon for mortal sin without the Sacrament of Penance when we cannot go to confession, but with the perfect contrition we must have the intention of going to confession as soon as possible, if we again have the opportunity.

Didn’t answer my question. Where did Jesus himself say this? Book, chapter and verse.

 

[rev_kevin]

This should help you. What the Apostles did they did because of the Power given to them by Jesus. But they also learned from him here on earth.

Here is the scripture you asked for though.

To begin with, lets agree on one thing, that I believe we can. An unclean spirit is sin. Now go to:

Mark 3: 14-15 He appointed twelve (the apostles) that they might be with him and he might send them forth to preach, and to HAVE AUTHORITY to DRIVE OUT DEMONS.

So now you must ask yourself do you believe that Jesus Christ had the authority to forgive sin (drive out demons)? If you answer yes to that, then do you believe Jesus Christ had that authority to extend that power to his Apostles as the Scripture says?

Now lets say you are right and the Church is wrong in saying we need the Apostles to forgive our sins. Then why did Jesus forgive Mans sins when he was here on earth, and why did he extend that power to the Apostles, and read the scripture, only 12, does the scripture say he extended that authority to. Now why would Jesus do that if we could all go to God ourself? Do you think that people could not go to God in private and confess in those days also. Just because God made Man (Jesus) walked on this earth at that time, was he still not everywhere? Of course he was. But he made the rules not the Church. Now why did he do that?

Now see thats one thing I do not even think the Pope can answer for you. The only thing the Pope answer is that he did indeed do it, but WHY we do not know. Only God does.

But when Jesus gave them the power, at the time he only gave it to the 12 men. Why? If we could all forgive sin, and God could why did Jesus forgive sins on earth? Simple he choose it to be that way. Why would he just not say pray and ask my Father for forgiveness of your sins. But he didn’t he touched them and said your sins are forgiven, he commanded the demons to come out.

Now back to the 12 thats very important. He only extended that power to them at the time as I stated, He was quite selective do you not agree on who he gave the power to?

Then remember later in scripture what it says. In:

1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the GIFT you have, which was CONFERRED ON YOU through the prophetic word with the IMPOSITION OF HANDS of the PRESBYTERATE.

Now continue on and it will remind you of Jesus picking only the 12 at that time.
1 Tim 5: 22. Do not LAY hands TOO READILY on anyone. See Jesus told them to be very selective also.

Timothy’s final warning. O Timothy GUARD what has been entrusted TO YOU.

Agree

Yes this is true but if you look at Mark 9;18 the disciples could not cast out the demon from the boy. “So I asked your disciples to cast out the evil spirit, but they couldn’t.”

Lets say I and a friend of mine are in the mall and my friend punches someone in the face and I say to my friend, “I forgive you for punching that man in the face.” How can I forgive my friend? Is it my place to forgive him for punching the man or is it the place of the man who got punched to forgive him? I can’t nor do I have the power forgive him for something he did not do to me. Its up to the man who got punched to forgive him. Then its up to my friend to ask God to forgive him. The same for a priest, the sin was not against him so he can’t forgive that sin. Its up to the one who committed the sin to ask God to forgive him. The priest can’t,

Why didn’t Peter in Acts 3:38 forgive them of their sins? He said, “Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.”

Acts 3:19 “Now turn from your sins and turn to God, so you can be cleansed of your sins.”

They have the power to preach of forgiveness and only through God can one be forgiven of their sins.

Luke 24:47 “…There is forgiveness of sins for all who turn to me.” It was the Apostles job to turn people to Christ for there sins to be forgiven.

Jesus forgave sins on earth because he is God.

1 Timothy 4:14 is talking about being a leader of a church.

1 Timothy 5:22 is talking about appointing a elder.

 

[Nicea325]

I don’t doubt God when he said he will forgive us of our sins. If I can’t trust God to forgive me, if I can’t trust him to keep his word, then who can I trust, Man?

Show me where Jesus, himself, said We had to go through a priest for our sins to be forgiven.

Again,no offense,but you sound like the Jews who questioned Jesus who he thought he was forgiving people their sins? What was there response? ONLY God can forgive sins. If Jesus is God and if chose to say these words:

“Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” (Jn 20:22–23).

It is clear enough Jesus being God can confer whatever He wills on his own creation.Hence,why he said the above verse only to the 12.

 

[Vico]

Didn’t answer my question. Where did Jesus himself say this? Book, chapter and verse.

You rejected it in your response to my post 256. The Baltimore Catechism quotes are not intended to answer that question, previously answered, rather to show the Catholic teaching on what is normally needed for salvation is the sacrament of penance.