No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[Shin]

Agree

Lets say I and a friend of mine are in the mall and my friend punches someone in the face and I say to my friend, “I forgive you for punching that man in the face.” How can I forgive my friend? Is it my place to forgive him for punching the man or is it the place of the man who got punched to forgive him? I can’t nor do I have the power forgive him for something he did not do to me. Its up to the man who got punched to forgive him. Then its up to my friend to ask God to forgive him. The same for a priest, the sin was not against him so he can’t forgive that sin. Its up to the one who committed the sin to ask God to forgive him. The priest can’t,

Ah, you’ve hit a bit on something interesting – every sin against God is also a sin against His Church, the entire Body of Christ – no sin does not harm all of the body, it is never a case of just between you and God, just between you and one other person… His Church has the authority to excommunicate, that is to expel people from the Communion or reconcile them. Some sins are so great they require judgement as to whether this is done or not. This authority too is in the hands of the priest, as well as the authority to forgive sins of their guilt. The priest has the authority to forgive sins on behalf of the whole Church. Priests have a special role, in the person of Christ upon this earth, and so they act as Christ’s representatives in many special ways.

Matthew 18:17:

And if he will not hear them: tell the Church. And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Footnote: [20] “There am I in the midst of them”… This is understood of such assemblies only as are gathered in the name and authority of Christ; and in unity of the church of Christ. St. Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae.

St. Cyprian is an early bishop and martyr, who died on August 14th of 258 A.D.

‘Whatever a man prefers to God, that he makes a god to himself.’

Saint Cyprian

 

[rev_kevin]

Ah, you’ve hit a bit on something interesting – every sin against God is also a sin against His Church, the entire Body of Christ – no sin does not harm all of the body, it is never a case of just between you and God, just between you and one other person… His Church has the authority to excommunicate, that is to expel people from the Communion or reconcile them. Some sins are so great they require judgement as to whether this is done or not. This authority too is in the hands of the priest, as well as the authority to forgive sins of their guilt. The priest has the authority to forgive sins on behalf of the whole Church. Priests have a special role, in the person of Christ upon this earth, and so they act as Christ’s representatives in many special ways.

Matthew 18:17:

And if he will not hear them: tell the Church. And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Footnote: [20] “There am I in the midst of them”… This is understood of such assemblies only as are gathered in the name and authority of Christ; and in unity of the church of Christ. St. Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae.

St. Cyprian is an early bishop and martyr, who died on August 14th of 258 A.D.

‘Whatever a man prefers to God, that he makes a god to himself.’

Saint Cyprian

Are we to judge others? I think not.

Matthew 7:1-7 “Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged, And why worry abut the speck in your friends eye when you have a lof in your own? How can you think of saying, Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye, when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye, then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.”

“If that person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. If the church decides you are right, but the other person won’t accept it, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.” Matthew 18:17

Now Matthew 18:15-17 is a guideline for dealing with those who sin against us. They were meant for 1. Christians, not unbelievers. 2. Sins committed against you and others and 3. conflict resolution in the context of the church, not the community at large. Jesus’ words are not a license for a frontal attack on every person who hurts or slights us. They are not a licens to start a destructive gossip campaign or to call for a church trial. They are designed to reconcile those who disagree so that all Christians can live in harmony.

 

[rev_kevin]

You rejected it in your response to my post 256. The Baltimore Catechism quotes are not intended to answer that question, previously answered, rather to show the Catholic teaching on what is normally needed for salvation is the sacrament of penance.

I rejected it because you did not answer the question.

 

[Robbinson]

I rejected it because you did not answer the question.

Hi Rev Kev - I was going to let it lie, but since you brought up someone else not answering your question, I believe you have not yet answered my question to you of what Jesus meant when he told Peter he had the “keys to the kingdom” with the power to “bind and lose” on earth and in heaven - he then repeated that authority (to bind and lose, on earth and in heaven) for the apostles, clearly suggesting that their ability to “forgive sins” means more than forgiving someone from sinning against them.

I really would like to understand how you interpet those verses since you are working hard (I admire the effort, but it does take some effort ) to try to fit the power to “forgive sins” into the box of referring to forgiving someone for sinning against the apostles.

many thanks in advance.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Vico]

I rejected it because you did not answer the question.

This is what I posted (exerpt):

"The faithful do not have the power to bind and loosen sins, that was only given by Jesus to the Apostles and their lawful sucessors.

John 20:23: “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose you shall retain, they are retained.” (Rheims)"

In New International Version translation we read the entire section, showing that Jesus is talking to his apostles, not a general audience:

**19 **On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” **20 **After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
**21 **Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” **22 **And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. **23 **If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[KathleenGee]

RevKevin has been on these topics a number of times and hearing the same responses…that is why he doesn’t respond…

He simply does not want to believe.

 

[rinnie]

Agree

Yes this is true but if you look at Mark 9;18 the disciples could not cast out the demon from the boy. “So I asked your disciples to cast out the evil spirit, but they couldn’t.”

Lets say I and a friend of mine are in the mall and my friend punches someone in the face and I say to my friend, “I forgive you for punching that man in the face.” How can I forgive my friend? Is it my place to forgive him for punching the man or is it the place of the man who got punched to forgive him? I can’t nor do I have the power forgive him for something he did not do to me. Its up to the man who got punched to forgive him. Then its up to my friend to ask God to forgive him. The same for a priest, the sin was not against him so he can’t forgive that sin. Its up to the one who committed the sin to ask God to forgive him. The priest can’t,

Why didn’t Peter in Acts 3:38 forgive them of their sins? He said, “Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.”

Acts 3:19 “Now turn from your sins and turn to God, so you can be cleansed of your sins.”

They have the power to preach of forgiveness and only through God can one be forgiven of their sins.

Luke 24:47 “…There is forgiveness of sins for all who turn to me.” It was the Apostles job to turn people to Christ for there sins to be forgiven.

Jesus forgave sins on earth because he is God.

1 Timothy 4:14 is talking about being a leader of a church.

1 Timothy 5:22 is talking about appointing a elder.

Well Rev. if you read the scripture Jesus told you the answer himself. Go back and read it, the reason they could not cure the boy was their lack of prayer and fasting. The reason they could not cure the boy is in the scripture read 19. Jesus exposes their lack of faith and prayer.

And as far as acts 3:19 Where did the Apostles, Pope of today or Priest for that matter ever claim to not forgive sins in the Name of Jesus Christ, and it on their own?

You may want to read acts 3:6 That is how the Pope, Priests etc do it,Just as they do it today by their faith and trust in God and by the power given to them in his name…

Then Peter took him by the right hand and raised him up immdeiataely his feet and ankles grew stong. Right there is the miracle Peter performed in the name of Jesus which you deny that they can do. Further more read on to 3:12 You Isralites why are you amazed at this, and why do you look so intently at us AS IF WE MADE HIM WALK ON OUR OWN POWER OR PIETYS.

The Priest never claim to have any power of their own, They only claim the Power given to them by God by the Laying of hand by the power of the Holy Spirit. Where did any RC Priest ever say I give you absolution in my name? Never. It is give you absolution in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit Amen.

Why do you continue to deny the power given to the Apostles and Priest and Pope and Bishops by God to do his work?

Please continue to read acts 5:12 MANY signs and wonders were done among the people at the HAND OF THE APOSTLES.

Answer me this Did Jesus have the Power to forgive sins? Of course he did, then why do you deny the power that he gave the Apostles in his name. Did it not say what my Father has given me, I now give to you, Go and make disciples of all nations!! Did he not BREATH on them and say RECEIVE THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! Did you miss Pentecost or what??

 

[rinnie]

And by the way Rev Kev, Of course you do not have the Power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in the name of Jesus Christ. You are not a Priest. You were not ordained into the Priesthood with the laying of hands passed down from the Apostolic line. You were not called by Christ to follow him and give up your life in the Priesthood.

Why do you think I am Catholic. Simple, Jesus has left us the Church and Confession to be given forgiveness for ours sins in his name. Again why do you continue to deny this power of the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles at Pentecost, the power that Jesus said was to be passed down by the laying of hands.

 

[schaick]

And by the way Rev Kev, Of course you do not have the Power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in the name of Jesus Christ. You are not a Priest. You were not ordained into the Priesthood with the laying of hands passed down from the Apostolic line. You were not called by Christ to follow him and give up your life in the Priesthood.

Why do you think I am Catholic. Simple, Jesus has left us the Church and Confession to be given forgiveness for ours sins in his name. Again why do you continue to deny this power of the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles at Pentecost, the power that Jesus said was to be passed down by the laying of hands.

Don’t make the universal Church smaller then it really is existing in only the Catholic branch of a huge tree.

Mark 9
38"Teacher," said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

 

[rinnie]

Don’t make the universal Church smaller then it really is existing in only the Catholic branch of a huge tree.

Mark 9
38"Teacher," said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

I do not understand where this scripture has anything to do with the denial of the Priests, etc having the power of the HS to forgive sins.

What does this scripture that warns us about jealousy and intolerance to others, and Jesus saying that anyone who can teach in the name of Jesus will not go unrewarded?

Are you saying that you agree that the Priest have this power, or are you denying it, or are you saying everyone has this power. I don’t understand your comment.

And I do not understand how showing him that scripture, and proof that the Church does indeed have this power to forgive our sin on earth, and what a great power this is, has to do with making the universal Church smaller?

 

[KathleenGee]

Some times I get the impression that Protestants are jealous of the priests because they cannot be…and envy the grace given them to be consecrated ministers to the Blood of Christ.

We do not have power. We have grace through our faith in Christ. It is the fruits of the Holy Spirit at work in us that give us the grace to forgive and not be bitter.

Jesus instituted the sacrament of penance on the evening of the Resurrection when He appeared to them and ate with them.

Again this action of eating together…great and tremendous sacraments of the Eucharist and Penance.

And people need to be warned that those cast out demons in Christ’s name are not assured salvation; only those who endure to the end following the will of the Father will be saved.

It is a great walk to salvation to be able to be humble and to submit to lawful church authority. Our priests serve not only as confessors but give advice on our spiritual life to help us avoid wrong direction or application or presumptions. When we are absolved of our sins by Christ, we experience such power and grace, and a renewed indwelling by Christ Himself that cannot be duplicated by somebody preaching with the Bible alone. The sacrament of Penance is also a great sacrament for healing.

 

[Janet1983]

Some times I get the impression that Protestants are jealous of the priests because they cannot be…and envy the grace given them to be consecrated ministers to the Blood of Christ.

Jealous? Seriously?
I don’t think any of us is seriously jealous, because some of us do not see the necessity and others don’t think that they are without an equivalent.

It is a great walk to salvation to be able to be humble and to submit to lawful church authority. Our priests serve not only as confessors but give advice on our spiritual life to help us avoid wrong direction or application or presumptions. When we are absolved of our sins by Christ, we experience such power and grace, and a renewed indwelling by Christ Himself that cannot be duplicated by somebody preaching with the Bible alone. The sacrament of Penance is also a great sacrament for healing.

It’s a great walk in salvation, to be able to humbly submit oneself to God’s authority. His mercy is always available at any time of the day when we come to Him in prayer, confessing our sins and His Word is guiding us to get to know Him more, to love Him more and to live our lives according to His will.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.(A)
I have this assurance, for I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in me will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.(**(“http://www.veritasbible.com/drb/read/Philippians_1:6”)) He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds we are healed.(C)

 

[grannymh]

I know that this axiom is an imperfect way of describing the Church’s role in the divine economy of salvation… but can anyone just answer me this simple question: Does the Roman Catholic Church have a necessary role in the salvation of every human being, be him Christian or non-Christian?

The better question is – **Why **does the Roman Catholic Church have a necessary role in the salvation of all human beings?

The answer – Because the Catholic Church is founded by Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. No one else died on the Cross. No one else brings souls to heaven. Jesus Christ is the only One.

All of us, as direct descendents of Adam and Eve, are called to the same destiny which is to share eternally in God’s own life. Since Jesus Christ died for all, Catholics hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made
partakers–in a way known to God–in God’s plan for Salvation.

The operative phrase is in a way known to God. We should not underestimate God’s power to invite a soul to seek the truth. God, not us, is the merciful judge of a person’s heart.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55: 6-9
.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Grannyh…

And it is sad that people do not realize the power and presence Christ has given His ministers. I have read throughout my life the testimony of witness priests have given to the world in persecution, imprisonment, and the particular hatred they arouse, as well as in this country the ongoing misrepresentation of all the good they do.

The sacramental life is concrete…no arguing, dissenting, no self promotion of our righteous faith…we can brag of nothing.

 

[KLIBERA24]

The query sounds like a typical man-made response & we humans are just not that wise. It would be hard to believe that God has condemned 4/5 of humanity to hell. A particular religion does not imply an exclusive right to anything. Consider Hitler–a baptized Catholic but clearly a person who went entirely against what Jesus taught. Are we saying that his life on earth does not matter? If we are saying that, this would tend to make God & Jesus look pretty ridiculous & hypocritical. All that Jesus preached then would be an absolute lie. Why care for your bretheren? Why follow the acts of mercy? It would be saying that following the commandments is pointless. In fact, it would be more like practicing that same deceit that Satan practices. Remember Satan’s mission is one of deceit–he cares nothing of the welfare of those he victimizes–rather his goal is to get humanity to disallow their allegiance to God. He does not promise any soul something in return for doing so. Here I present an even more profound challenge. We already accept the fact that no man is infallible. Agreed? What about the Catholic Church’s sexual abuse scandal? Do you not think that is a perversion of God’s teaching? Or are the culprits who committed these sins somehow exempt from their sins simply because they hide behind the collar? Many of these priests were in self-denial, showed no remorse, & even continued to officiate the Mass & partake of the Eucharist in spite of their sins. This is a good example of the ultimate sin of pride.

 

[schaick]

I do not understand where this scripture has anything to do with the denial of the Priests, etc having the power of the HS to forgive sins.

What does this scripture that warns us about jealousy and intolerance to others, and Jesus saying that anyone who can teach in the name of Jesus will not go unrewarded?

Are you saying that you agree that the Priest have this power, or are you denying it, or are you saying everyone has this power. I don’t understand your comment.

And I do not understand how showing him that scripture, and proof that the Church does indeed have this power to forgive our sin on earth, and what a great power this is, has to do with making the universal Church smaller?

It is a reply to:
“And by the way Rev Kev, Of course you do not have the Power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in the name of Jesus Christ. You are not a Priest. You were not ordained into the Priesthood with the laying of hands passed down from the Apostolic line. You were not called by Christ to follow him and give up your life in the Priesthood.”

I believe both, we can go directly to Christ and a called and ordained Pastors can forgive sins in Jesus name- a reminder that Jesus died for us, we repent and they are forgiven.

So almost before the words of our sorrow, regret for having sinned come out of our mouth we are forgiven. SO actually before the Priest, Pastor forgives us in Jesus’ name we have been forgiven.

 

[guanophore]

It is a reply to:

“And by the way Rev Kev, Of course you do not have the Power of the Holy Spirit to forgive sins in the name of Jesus Christ. You are not a Priest. You were not ordained into the Priesthood with the laying of hands passed down from the Apostolic line. You were not called by Christ to follow him and give up your life in the Priesthood.”

I believe both, we can go directly to Christ and a called and ordained Pastors can forgive sins in Jesus name- a reminder that Jesus died for us, we repent and they are forgiven.

Yes, a person can be called to the ministry and yet have no access to ordination. There are three levels of priesthood shadowed in the OT, and fulfilled in the new. All of God’s holy people (a priestly people) are called to bring Christ to the world, and in that evangelical duty, we are called to forgive others their trespasses, as we ask God to forgive ours.

The ministerial priesthood is created to serve the Body. In that capacity, they forgive and reconcile for the Body, on behalf of the Body.

Jesus reinforced this concept when He commanded the lepers to go “show yourselves to the priest”. The duty of the priest was to examine the disease and proclaim it clean, so that the afflicted person could return to the community without fear of infecting anyone. Leprosy is a type of sins, which separate us from God, and from the community. The NT priest is to determine whether a person has confessed their sins, and has a firm purpose of amendment. When this is determined, the priest can ratify that the separated person has been rejoined to the community. In this way, he acts for the Church, just as the OT priest acted for Israel.

So almost before the words of our sorrow, regret for having sinned come out of our mouth we are forgiven. SO actually before the Priest, Pastor forgives us in Jesus’ name we have been forgiven.

The Church teaches that all who make a perfect confession are forgiven. Since there is no way for us to know that our confession is perfect, Jesus instituted the sacrament of reconciliation both so that we can have certainty, and so that we can be healed of the guilt and shame we expereince because of our sins.

 

[KathleenGee]

Serious sins break our union with the Eucharist. And to restore our Eucharistic reception, we need to go to Christ, present in the priest confessor, for His absolution of serious sins…from sacrament to sacrament.

If we hurt our neighbor, we are to ask for forgiveness, just as we are to forgive others. This is living out the Gospel.

Daily ordinary sins are absolved at the beginning of Mass, where we confess together as a community.

We laypersons are also extensions of the priesthood in our sharing the fruit of the Eucharist in the world in our daily duty through the work of our hands.

 

[Cat_Herder]

If we hurt our neighbor, we are to ask for forgiveness, just as we are to forgive others. This is living out the Gospel.

Indeed.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 6:14-15[/BIBLEDRB]

This ties into the Biblical requirement to examine oneself before receiving Communion.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 11:27-29[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Born_Warrior]

The Church teaches that Muslims and Jews have a ***chance ***of salvation, why not Lutherans?

Muslims and Jews can only have Salvation if they believe Jesus is the TRUE Savior, and when they do that they are no longer Muslims or Jews (in most cases). Believing that Jesus is the Savior in Islam and traditional Judaism is in being in violation of those religions. In many place in the Muslim world and according to the Koran, if you are a Muslim who converts you are to be killed. Having a bible can cost you your life too.

There are Jews that believe in Christ’s divinity (Messianic Jews), and they have been accepted by the Israel Supreme Court under the “Law of Return” as Jews. They differ of course from mainstream Jews in believing Christ is the Savior and that you can get to Heaven through belief in Him (unlike Judaism that believe works can get you to Heaven).