No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

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I can’t help but feel Rome has moved the goal posts. Centuries ago we’re told there’s no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Then Vatican II with its overtures of ecumenism and warmth seemed to negate that. To salvage consistency, we’re told by most Catholic apologists, “well, one CAN’T find salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, since Vatican II talks about the “possibility” of salvation for non-Catholics, Jesus will save some of these people but first He’ll do it through the Catholic Church even though these folks don’t realize it.” I’m trying to picture how a person dies never having known much less cared about the Catholic Church. Then in the intermediate state between death and heaven, maybe purgatory, Jesus will somehow give the dead RCIA and expose them to Catholicism and they’ll get saved through the Church that is still on earth that they never knew?" :confused::eek: Sounds far-fetched. Can’t Jesus just save them because they’re invinsibly ignorant unilaterally on his own? Does he have to use the Catholic Church that’s still on earth and no longer a factor in the dead person? I’m lost on that one…
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I can’t help but feel Rome has moved the goal posts. Centuries ago we’re told there’s no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Then Vatican II with its overtures of ecumenism and warmth seemed to negate that. To salvage consistency, we’re told by most Catholic apologists, “well, one CAN’T find salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, since Vatican II talks about the “possibility” of salvation for non-Catholics, Jesus will save some of these people but first He’ll do it through the Catholic Church even though these folks don’t realize it.” I’m trying to picture how a person dies never having known much less cared about the Catholic Church. Then in the intermediate state between death and heaven, maybe purgatory, Jesus will somehow give the dead RCIA and expose them to Catholicism and they’ll get saved through the Church that is still on earth that they never knew?" :confused::eek: Sounds far-fetched. Can’t Jesus just save them because they’re invinsibly ignorant unilaterally on his own? Does he have to use the Catholic Church that’s still on earth and no longer a factor in the dead person? I’m lost on that one…
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Its very simple really gurneyhalleck; You see God’s word states this;

Isaiah 55:10
For just as from the heavens the rain and snow come down And do not return there till they have watered the earth, making it fertile and fruitful, Giving seed to him who sows and bread to him who eats,
11
**So shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; It shall not return to me void, but shall do my will, achieving the end for which I sent it. **

The Catholic Church divinely instituted by Jesus Christ only obeys God not man as you appear to be applying carnal knowledge to these revelations and stewards of the mysteries of God.

P.S the goal posts have not been moved the Catholic Church still knows and proclaims no salvation outside the Catholic Church. What you are refuting here is divine movement in time of the Word of God realized which will never return void to God our Father. Also you may have forgotten Our God is the God of the living not the dead, our members consist of both heaven and earth.

Peace be with you
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I can’t help but feel Rome has moved the goal posts. Centuries ago we’re told there’s no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Then Vatican II with its overtures of ecumenism and warmth seemed to negate that. To salvage consistency, we’re told by most Catholic apologists, "well, one CAN’T find salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, since Vatican II talks about the “possibility” of salvation for non-Catholics, …
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Salvation for non-Catholics is not something new since Vatican II. The following is from an earlier post in this thread:
Vico said:
Post #6
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Baltimore Catechism No. 3, 1891:

sacred-texts.com/chr/balt/index.htm

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:


  1. *]Has been validly baptized;
    *]Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    *]Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church?
    A. Such persons are said to belong to the “soul of the church”; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.
    %between%
 
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Gabriel_of_12:
Hi, Newbie, have you read CCC 169 and 171? St. Fulgentius position is not stated emphatically in the CCC, but Jesus himself took care to declare the position of St. Fulgentius to which the CCC never disagrees with.

John 5:18
**For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.
45
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father: the one who will accuse you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope. **46
For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me.
47
**But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" **

You see, the CCC today cannot change the Gospels in any way, for the CCC never contradicts itself, also if it appears that the CCC is not supported by a Catholic Saint or Catholic Martyr’s teaching, the Word of God and Apostolic Tradition gets revealed.

There is much more to digress here why there cannot be no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

The main reason comes from John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. **No one comes to the Father except through me. **7
**If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” **

The True presence of Jesus Christ can only be found in his body, blood soul and divinity, it is through Jesus True body and blood that we are cleansed to enter into eternal salvation. The Catholic Church has proclaimed Christ crucified in her Mass since the resurrection. There can be no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

Grant it that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of God and the power to bind and loose. Yet protestants reject the Chair of Peter, yet the Jews recognize the Chair of Peter in the unbroken succession of the popes, something to ponder here?

Peace be with you

So what is your point?

I do not disagree that there can be no salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, it can be argued that (some) Jews, Muslims and Protestants are in some way, shape or form part of the Catholic (Universal) Church. Not completely or perfectly of course, but still may be a part.
 
Roy5 said:
Okay. What about someone like me, who comes from a mixed Catholic-Protestant background? I am well aware that the Catholic church claims to be the one true church. I follow EWTN, read such Catholic publications as Our Sunday Visitor, America, US Catholic, and Commonweal, am well-versed in everything from the Church Fathers to the Catechism, wrote my undergraduate thesis on Aquinas, etc. Still, I do not believe for a minute that I need to be a Catholic to be saved. In fact, I find that idea alien to the heart of Christ’s message and helps keep me from being part of the Catholic church.
Code: 
I would find Catholicism far more attractive to me personally if it was more accepting of diverse views. Was Mary a perpetual virgin, for example? Frankly, I don't care. There's nothing in the Bible about that - and she was married to Joseph. Why is that doctrine so paramount? Or, this whole transubstantiation teaching. I can accept that Christ is everywhere - 'lo, I am with you always' - so he certainly is present in the Eucharist. But he is equally present anywhere we happen to be. Or, confession. Yes, I know what Christ told the disciples, but I find it hard to believe that a priest can declare sins forgiven. That strikes me as God's job, not that of any man, even the most saintly priest.

And we could go on. But you get my point.
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I do get your point Roy. This is why I think it is worth getting the opinions of those who disagree and weighing them against what you do agree with then make a decision. For me personally, my complaints against the theology of Rome are not due to it being intolerant to diverse views as you say because if they (Rome) are what they say they are (correct), then they shouldn’t be tolerant of diverse views since diverse views would be false views. No, I rather take one dogma, pick any one you wish, and study the history of the dogma and then compare it with Scripture.

For example, show me a gentile priest in the new testament church? In order to get there you have to believe that the OT Israel was the church, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, that priests do not have to be from the tribe of Levi and that with Christ as the great High Priest, there is still a need for earthly priests to help out. I likewise could go on and on and hopefully you get my point as well.
 
pcg2 said:
So I just finished reading a pretty exhaustive book by Francis A. Sullivan, S.J. entitled Salvation Outside the Church? Tracing the History of the Catholic Response. He is a Jesuit who has taught theology for many years at Gregorian University in Rome.

But… after more than 200 pages, I am still confused as to what the answer to this question is! I learned so much about the history of this axiom, and how social, psychological, and historical factors contributed to its aceptance and eventual disuse in Catholic Theology.

I read this book so I could get a grasp on what the Church actually taught on this matter, and while I understand so much more than I did before, I came away “dissatisfied” with the ambiguity with which he concluded the book.

I know that this axiom is an imperfect way of describing the Church’s role in the divine economy of salvation… but can anyone just answer me this simple question: Does the Roman Catholic Church have a necessary role in the salvation of every human being, be him Christian or non-Christian?
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Yes when a Priest takes the vow in the RCC he promises to live his life and preach the true word of Christ to all. Rather they accept God’s word or not. They are here to proclaim the Good news to ALL!!
 
(Edited) I am 150 % CATHOLIC - always have been and always will be! HOWEVER I have Protestant friends and have been to their Churches!!! Guess what? These Churches were full of what is important in ANY Church - Catholic or otherwise: Beautiful people full of LOVE and WORSHIP and PRAISE for the only thing that matters ever: GOD!!! I was blasted so hard by the HOLY SPIRIT at one of these Churches that although I am usually not outwardly emotional in Churches I had torrents of tears running down my cheeks! THANK YOU GOD!!! Also, the HOLY SPIRIT’s presence was so thick in the atmosphere - it was like being in a HEAVENLY RAINFOREST!!! So guess what? GOD Loves everyone - of every religion!!! Just because someone is a certain religion does not guarantee getting into Heaven. What if someone is the “perfect religion” and is a sinning, fake pig? What if someone else is not the “perfect religion” and is a true child of GOD and is full of faith and good works? Get into reality!!! ** No one but GOD can judge anyone **else and it is up to HIM who is going to HEAVEN. GOD LOVES EVERYONE AND I LOVE GOD!!!⭕❤️:amen:
 
GODISLOVE1970 said:
(Edited) I am 150 % CATHOLIC - always have been and always will be! HOWEVER I have Protestant friends and have been to their Churches!!! Guess what? These Churches were full of what is important in ANY Church - Catholic or otherwise: Beautiful people full of LOVE and WORSHIP and PRAISE for the only thing that matters ever: GOD!!! I was blasted so hard by the HOLY SPIRIT at one of these Churches that although I am usually not outwardly emotional in Churches I had torrents of tears running down my cheeks! THANK YOU GOD!!! Also, the HOLY SPIRIT’s presence was so thick in the atmosphere - it was like being in a HEAVENLY RAINFOREST!!! So guess what? GOD Loves everyone - of every religion!!! Just because someone is a certain religion does not guarantee getting into Heaven. What if someone is the “perfect religion” and is a sinning, fake pig? What if someone else is not the “perfect religion” and is a true child of GOD and is full of faith and good works? Get into reality!!! ** No one but GOD can judge anyone **else and it is up to HIM who is going to HEAVEN. GOD LOVES EVERYONE AND I LOVE GOD!!!⭕❤️:amen:
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Yes, Okay:confused: I agree with what you are saying. But what does that have to do with the saying there is no salvation outside of the CC.

If you know the Catholic faith you would agree that the Catholic Church is the living Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. So when we saying there is no salvation outside of the CC we mean that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ would you not agree?

The Pope stated he admires all faith’s and Church’s for the truth that they do have. And we should all feel that way. But in order to have the fullness of the truth you have the CC.

In order to have the fullness of the truth you must have all of the Sacraments. As far as I know the Protestatant faith only has two.🤷
 
Jon_Hus said:
For example, show me a gentile priest in the new testament church? In order to get there you have to believe that the OT Israel was the church, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, that priests do not have to be from the tribe of Levi and that with Christ as the great High Priest, there is still a need for earthly priests to help out. I likewise could go on and on and hopefully you get my point as well.
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The apostles were priests and they appointed other priests.
Scripture tells us there was a change in the priesthood (Hebrews 7:12)
There was now a better ministry (Hebrews 6:8)
The apostles held the office of Bishop ( Acts 1:20 )
They chose the successor of Judas by casting lots ( Acts 1:26) which is how the OT priests were chosen to go into the Temple.( Luke 1:9)
Paul had a “priestly service”
“But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, in the** priestly service **of the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 15:15-16)

At the Last Supper Jesus told the Apostles “Do THIS in remembrance of me.” Do what? Offer the Eucharist which is a priestly service for the faithful as Paul does in 1 Cor. 11:23-30
Authority to forgive or NOT forgive sin was given to men. ( Matt. 9:8) and John 20:23)

Paul exercises this authority in 1 Cor. 5:3 “**I have already pronounced judgment **in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing…you are to deliver this man to Satan…”

Paul forgave sin in the “person of Christ” 2 Cor. 2:20

If anyone is sick you should call the elders ( Greek-presbyters -English-priests) so they can anoint the sick man with oil and pray over him and forgive his sins. (functions of a priest) James 5:13

Priests are God’ messengers; “For the lips of a priest shoul dguard knowledge and me should seek instruction from his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 2:7
 
JonNC said:
I hope you don’t mind a different perspective.
Your premse seems to be that it takes a perfect man to forgive sins. The logical extension of that argument is that it is then impossible for one person to forgive another. How can I forgive someone when they sin against me if I have sinned against others? Obviously, our ability to forgive others is not only in scripture, it is explicit in the Lord’s Prayer. We are expected, called to forgive others when they sin against us.

I think it has already been explained that the power to bind and loose is vested by Christ Himself in the Church. Therefore, my Lutheran pastor (without getting into the issue of succession), as a called and ordained representative of Christ, and by Christ’s authority, granted by His own words in scripture, can declare the forgiveness of sins in Christ’s stead and name. Does my pastor actually forgive the sins? No. But he does declare what Christ does through him.

The issue of human sin in the middle ages, or any other time, is irrelevent. Christ said He gave the power to bind or loose sin to the Church. Priests and pastors must confess their sins, as well.

Jon
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Hi Jon and I agree with what you said. In the RCC a Priest can forgive sins by the Power of the Holy Spirit that he got when he was ordained as a Priest.

You made a very good point also that we do not have to be without sin to forgive those who sins against us. But of course we can forgive others but not their sin. I just wanted to make that clear. Only a Priest can forgive mans sin by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I can’t help but feel Rome has moved the goal posts. Centuries ago we’re told there’s no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Then Vatican II with its overtures of ecumenism and warmth seemed to negate that. To salvage consistency, we’re told by most Catholic apologists, “well, one CAN’T find salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, since Vatican II talks about the “possibility” of salvation for non-Catholics, Jesus will save some of these people but first He’ll do it through the Catholic Church even though these folks don’t realize it.”
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It’s always been hard for me to see how exclusive salvation as a doctrine can be reconciled with God’s infinite mercy.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I can’t help but feel Rome has moved the goal posts. Centuries ago we’re told there’s no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Then Vatican II with its overtures of ecumenism and warmth seemed to negate that. To salvage consistency, we’re told by most Catholic apologists, “well, one CAN’T find salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, since Vatican II talks about the “possibility” of salvation for non-Catholics, Jesus will save some of these people but first He’ll do it through the Catholic Church even though these folks don’t realize it.” I’m trying to picture how a person dies never having known much less cared about the Catholic Church. Then in the intermediate state between death and heaven, maybe purgatory, Jesus will somehow give the dead RCIA and expose them to Catholicism and they’ll get saved through the Church that is still on earth that they never knew?" :confused::eek: Sounds far-fetched. Can’t Jesus just save them because they’re invinsibly ignorant unilaterally on his own? Does he have to use the Catholic Church that’s still on earth and no longer a factor in the dead person? I’m lost on that one…
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No Love Rome never moved any goal posts. They have never changed the teaching or the word of God. All the Pope did was try to show others how to love one another, and show us how we can sometimes unite on what we have in common, instead of argue on what we disagree on. And show us what we agree on which is Jesus Christ our Lord and savior is what is MOST important.
 
You’re saying too many nice things about Protestants. You’re going to get it now! 😛
GODISLOVE1970 said:
(Edited) I am 150 % CATHOLIC - always have been and always will be! HOWEVER I have Protestant friends and have been to their Churches!!! Guess what? These Churches were full of what is important in ANY Church - Catholic or otherwise: Beautiful people full of LOVE and WORSHIP and PRAISE for the only thing that matters ever: GOD!!! I was blasted so hard by the HOLY SPIRIT at one of these Churches that although I am usually not outwardly emotional in Churches I had torrents of tears running down my cheeks! THANK YOU GOD!!! Also, the HOLY SPIRIT’s presence was so thick in the atmosphere - it was like being in a HEAVENLY RAINFOREST!!! So guess what? GOD Loves everyone - of every religion!!! Just because someone is a certain religion does not guarantee getting into Heaven. What if someone is the “perfect religion” and is a sinning, fake pig? What if someone else is not the “perfect religion” and is a true child of GOD and is full of faith and good works? Get into reality!!! ** No one but GOD can judge anyone **else and it is up to HIM who is going to HEAVEN. GOD LOVES EVERYONE AND I LOVE GOD!!!⭕❤️:amen:
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Third_Day said:
…
Priests are God’ messengers; “For the lips of a priest shoul dguard knowledge and me should seek instruction from his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 2:7
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Have you ever noticed Christian Third Day that sometimes posters on this forum respond in such a way as to indicate that either the responder didn’t actually read what you wrote or didn’t really understand your position? And then there are those who think that they are soo smart and the person that they are responding to are soo dumb and that this attitude is really apparent? And does it ever bother you poster when a response is of the general cookie cutter variety, lacking anything useful to the discussion, so much so that you are tempted to just ignore the whole thing but you just don’t want the responder to think that your doing what you accuse them of doing, and that is actually reading and trying to understand what they are saying?

May I ask you poster Third Day, how do you handle this situation when it happens?

Love and peace,
Jon
 
You didn’t put commas between “no” and Love" so I’m not sure if you’re calling me Love or saying NOLOVEROME 😃

I disagree that the Church hasn’t ever changed teachings. But you’re certainly entitled to believe so 👍
rinnie said:
No Love Rome never moved any goal posts. They have never changed the teaching or the word of God. All the Pope did was try to show others how to love one another, and show us how we can sometimes unite on what we have in common, instead of argue on what we disagree on. And show us what we agree on which is Jesus Christ our Lord and savior is what is MOST important.
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Lets watch our language guys.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
rinnie said:
Yes, Okay:confused: I agree with what you are saying. But what does that have to do with the saying there is no salvation outside of the CC.

If you know the Catholic faith you would agree that the Catholic Church is the living Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. So when we saying there is no salvation outside of the CC we mean that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ would you not agree?

The Pope stated he admires all faith’s and Church’s for the truth that they do have. And we should all feel that way. But in order to have the fullness of the truth you have the CC.

In order to have the fullness of the truth you must have all of the Sacraments. As far as I know the Protestatant faith only has two.🤷
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Hi! I know the Catholic Faith - I LOVE IT! I am Catholic - but what I am saying about salvation is that not just Catholics go to heaven:???!!!:confused: I guess I am confused! Catholic is the best religion in the world in my opinion - but I don’t understand how anyone can say that any one religion is going to make it to heaven and others are not!!! That is for GOD to decide!:)🙂
 
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