No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[JonNC]

Hi Jon and I agree with what you said. In the RCC a Priest can forgive sins by the Power of the Holy Spirit that he got when he was ordained as a Priest.

You made a very good point also that we do not have to be without sin to forgive those who sins against us. But of course we can forgive others but not their sin. I just wanted to make that clear. Only a Priest can forgive mans sin by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

I agree, rinnie. Christ did say to “forgive those who trespass against us”, however, and that was my point. You and I agree agree regarding the role of the ordained clergy to forgive sins, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jon

 

[Brandon72]

It seems to me that scripture tells us there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church for those who are aware of the truth. Scripture tells us this.

Matt 16:18-19" Simon… you are Rock and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven."

1 Tim 3:15
" If I am delayed you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, **which is **the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

Should we come to know the truth of the Catholic Church then we are bound to adhere to it.

Hebrews 9:25-10:26
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the Day drawing near **for if we sin deliberately **after receiving the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries

Hebrews 6:4–6
“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away.”

There are some who do not know the truth of the Catholic Church.

Romans 10:14 “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?”

Galatians 1:13 " For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it."

1 Tim 1:13 “Though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief.”

Luke 12:47-48 “And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not make ready or act according to his will shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know and did what deserved a beating **shall receive a light beating. **Everyone to whom much is given much will be required.”

John 15:22
“If I had not come to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin”

Jesus tells us that those to whom He has not come will not have sin. Does this mean those outside the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ, go straight to heaven? No, we must take all of scripture. They will be judged by the natural law.

Romans 2:14
“When Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing or perhaps excusing them. This will take place on the day when **God will judge men’s secrets **through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

Acts 10:34-35 " And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. "

1 Cor 5:12-13
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside

Eph 3:7-10
I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord

Not all will be saved

Matt. 7:13:
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

A persons best chance for salvation is in the Catholic Church because it was established by Jesus Christ so that " we may no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the cunning of men by their craftiness in deceitful wiles." Eph. 4:14

I have to interject here. God is the one who brings a person into his family, the church, not following man made dogmas. You make the mistake of adding to the text. Every time “church” is mentioned in Scripture you think it’s the roman catholic church of today??? Talk about reading into the text!

The “church” are those who God called to himself. They are the true believers of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation comes from God, period. Not following a Pope, not helping an old lady cross the street, nothing but the grace of God saves an individual. If you are part of the elect or a saint, you are part of the family of God. How do you know if you are saved? Read 1John1-3. You won’t find any mention of a pope or following a tradition. It’s about following Christ and his commandments.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

God is the one who brings a person into his family, the church, not following man made dogmas.

That’s odd. That sounds a lot like a dogma

You make the mistake of adding to the text. Every time “church” is mentioned in Scripture you think it’s the roman catholic church of today??? Talk about reading into the text!

Talk about reading into a post I don’t think Third Day is saying that fpr a couple of reasons. First the *Latin Rite is not the whole of the Catholic Church (as Guanophore *will remind you when you meet him). Second it would not be a proper understanding of what the Church teaches about itself. I think you should know how the Catholic Church defines the Church. I think you are coming from a definition of what other Protestants have told you we think the Church to be. We don’t make our beliefs a secret. We have nothing to hide. You can find out what we believe for yourself by reading the Scriptures and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In this case; the Church:

The Church- People of God, Body of Christ, Temple of the Holy Spirit.

The Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic

They are the true believers of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation comes from God, period.

I am glad to see that Catholics have made it into your definition of His Church.

nothing but the grace of God saves an individual.

I don’t recall anyone saying otherwise. For Catholics believe what St. Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

How do you know if you are saved? Read 1John1-3. You won’t find any mention of a pope or following a tradition.

You may not find the word “Pope” but certainly the Bible speaks of submitting to our leaders:

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Heb. 13:17

And St. Paul discussedTradition and what is expected:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. 2 Thess. 2:15

God bless you

 

[Third_Day]

=

Brandon72;7021064]I have to interject here. God is the one who brings a person into his family, the church,

Absolutely. It is by God’s grace that we come to the knowledge of the truth.

not following man made dogmas

Divinley inspired dogmas like the Trinity, The Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, Baptism is necessary for salvation, Christ established one Church etc.

You make the mistake of adding to the text. Every time “church” is mentioned in Scripture you think it’s the roman catholic church of today??? Talk about reading into the text!

In a strict sense yes, the Church mentioned in the bible is the Catholic Church under the successor of Peter, Pope Benedict XVI. In a broader sense all who are baptized are part of that Catholic Church.If you are baptized that would include you.

The “church” are those who God called to himself

. According to scripture it is more than that. The Church was built upon the apostles not upon you or me.The apostles appointed Bishops to be the shepherds in their absence. Peter was the chief shepherd and passed the keys to his successor.

They are the true believers of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation comes from God, period.

Salvation comes from God but He gave us a visible Church to guide us into the truth of how to obtain that salvation. It’s not simply by faith alone.

Not following a Pope, not helping an old lady cross the street, nothing but the grace of God saves an individual

. Is it necessary to cooperate with God’s grace and keep the commandments or can you just ignore the commandments and still be saved?

If you are part of the elect or a saint, you are part of the family of God

.How do you know you are part of the elect?

How do you know if you are saved? Read 1John1-3. You won’t find any mention of a pope or following a tradition

. 1 John 1-3 isn’t addressing the the Church, the Pope or tradition. That is taught elsewhere in scripture

It’s about following Christ and his commandments.

I though you said you were saved by grace alone? Here you have become Catholic and admit it is faith and works of grace.

 

[Brandon72]

Absolutely. It is by God’s grace that we come to the knowledge of the truth

.

Agreed.

Divinley inspired dogmas like the Trinity, The Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, Baptism is necessary for salvation, Christ established one Church etc.

Baptism is an outward expression of your repentance and faith in Christ.
Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In a strict sense yes, the Church mentioned in the bible is the Catholic Church under the successor of Peter, Pope Benedict XVI. In a broader sense all who are baptized are part of that Catholic Church.If you are baptized that would include you.

No, I’m not part of the roman catholic system. I am part of God’s gentile church, grafted on the root of Christ.
Romans 11:17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree

.

According to scripture it is more than that. The Church was built upon the apostles not upon you or me.The apostles appointed Bishops to be the shepherds in their absence. Peter was the chief shepherd and passed the keys to his successor.

The Church, meaning God’s elect, is being built still today. Christ the cornerstone, the Apostles and Prophets are the once laid foundation. A foundation is laid once. There are no more Apostles.

Salvation comes from God but He gave us a visible Church to guide us into the truth of how to obtain that salvation. It’s not simply by faith alone.

How do we obtain salvation? It is a gift. You don’t earn it by being a good person, you don’t find it by partaking in the Eucharist, it is a free gift from God to whomever He elects.
Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Notice Paul says nothing about following a Pope or a man made political church who makes laws and rules above and beyond what the Apostles taught. It’s WHOMEVER believes, you or me, black or white, Jew or Gentile, no distinction. Also notice GRACE AS A GIFT.

.

Is it necessary to cooperate with God’s grace and keep the commandments or can you just ignore the commandments and still be saved?

You keep the commandments of Christ if you have his spirit living in you. You might not do it perfectly all the time, we are still sinners, but you do your best. If you profess you are a Christian and still get drunk every night and practice fornication, very good chance you haven’t been born again and are a lost soul still.

.How do you know you are part of the elect?

[17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
(2 Corinthians 5:17-18 ESV)

.

1 John 1-3 isn’t addressing the the Church, the Pope or tradition. That is taught elsewhere in scripture

I know that, it’s addressing true doctrine, obedient living, and fervent devotion.

I though you said you were saved by grace alone? Here you have become Catholic and admit it is faith and works of grace.

My faith produces the works and obedience. I am Catholic in the Biblical sense, not the Roman sense.

Thank you
God Bless

 

[Robbinson]

.

Agreed.

Baptism is an outward expression of your repentance and faith in Christ.
Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

But Jesus taught us that unless we are born of “water and spirit” we will not be saved. That, and the express commandment by Christ to be baptized, suggests that baptism is more than an “outward expression of repentance and faith” (though it is that as well).

The Church, meaning God’s elect, is being built still today. Christ the cornerstone, the Apostles and Prophets are the once laid foundation. A foundation is laid once. There are no more Apostles.

If that were true, why did the apostles appoint a “successor” to Judas with the laying of hands? When Jesus gave Peter the “keys to the kingdom” that would have been well understood by Peter and the apostles as an “office” of authority - It harkens from Isaiah where the prime minister (second only to the king) had authority over the kingdom and it was an “office” (there were always successors). When Christ told Peter to “feed his flock” are we to think that was for the next 10 years and then the “authority” Jesus exressly gave to Peter and the apostles to forgivesins and teach was no longer necessary? That’s a tough perspective when we stand back and reflect on the larger picture (though I understand your perspective)

How do we obtain salvation? It is a gift. You don’t earn it by being a good person, you don’t find it by partaking in the Eucharist, it is a free gift from God to whomever He elects.
Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Notice Paul says nothing about following a Pope or a man made political church who makes laws and rules above and beyond what the Apostles taught. It’s WHOMEVER believes, you or me, black or white, Jew or Gentile, no distinction. Also notice GRACE AS A GIFT.

We agree that faith is a gift of grace - but that is not the end of the story. If you look at Jesus parable of the sheeps and goats you will find two groups of disciples. Some who believed in Christ (cast demons out in his name - sign of the Holy Spirit) were not saved because they did not feed the hungry, etc - those who did these things were truly God’s desciples.

As James said - “faith without works is dead”. We are not saved by works alone, we are not saved by faith alone - it is not either, but “both”. As creatures of Christ we will, as an obedience of faith, follow his commandments - those commandments include many works.

You keep the commandments of Christ if you have his spirit living in you. You might not do it perfectly all the time, we are still sinners, but you do your best. If you profess you are a Christian and still get drunk every night and practice fornication, very good chance you haven’t been born again and are a lost soul still.

Agreed in part - but I do believe scripture shows us we can really believe, really be “justified” and yet lose faith and lose salvation. Look at Romans when the gentile “believers” grafted into the rootstock (so justified) are warned by paul that they can be broken out of the rootstock if they don’t perservere. So I ultimately don’t think the argument that those who fail to do works were “never” justified/saved holds water.

My faith produces the works and obedience. I am Catholic in the Biblical sense, not the Roman sense.

• amen - faith does produce works and obedience.

As to “Catholic” - one way to look at it is a form of obedience - obedience to the authority given to Peter and the apostles, and their successors. Interestingly, God gave us a structure of authority in the old covenant (a shadow of things to have greater fulfillment in the new) - Jesus acknowledged the chair of Moses. Jesus repeated the pattern, in greater fulfillment in the new covenant, expressly giving the 12 apostles (see the connection to 12 tribes) authority with Peter alone the keys (like Moses).

Just as in the Old Covenant, many jews rebelled against Moses authority (miriam and Aaron - and then Korah - each chastized by God for it), so we have many christians today rebelling against the authority given to the apostles and their successors.

That being said - we all, believers, make up the body of Christ.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Third_Day]

=Brandon72;7022359].Baptism is **an outward expression **of your repentance and faith in Christ. Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If it is only an outward expression then how can Peter say to the Jews “be baptized…for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.?” Those are not merely outward signs. How can Paul tell the Corinthians that they were baptized and were “Sanctified and justified?” 1 Cor 6:11
How can Peter say “baptism now saves you?” 1 Pet. 3:21

No, I’m not part of the roman catholic system. I am part of God’s gentile church, grafted on the root of Christ. Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree

You were grafted in by your baptism and like verse 22 says you must remain in God’s grace “or you too will be cut off.”
.

The Church, meaning God’s elect, is being built still today. Christ the cornerstone, the Apostles and Prophets are the once laid foundation. A foundation is laid once. There are no more Apostles.

Scripture tells us that the apostles held the office of Bishop and they appointed other Bishops and those appointed others. The Bishops of the Catholic Church hold the same office as the apostles and are therefore their successors. Your denomination has no Bishops. It is not the Church.

How do we obtain salvation? It is a gift. You don’t earn it by being a good person

, You can lose it by being a sinful person because you have rejected God’s grace.

you don’t find it by partaking in the Eucharist, it is a free gift from God to whomever He elects

. Are you a 3, 4, or 6 point Calvinist?

Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

And how do we receive that gift of grace to be justified? “The doers of the law **will be justified **” Rom. 2:13
"He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. " Hebrews 5:9

Notice Paul says nothing about following a Pope or a man made political church who makes laws and rules

Scripture says to “Obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping a watch over your souls.” Heb. 13:17

1 Tim 3:15
But if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

above and beyond what the Apostles taught

. The Catholic Church teaches what Jesus and the apostles taught.

It’s WHOMEVER believes, you or me, black or white, Jew or Gentile, no distinction. Also notice GRACE AS A GIFT.

Believing isn’t enough.

Rom 10:9
**If you confess **with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

Hebrews 12:14
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord

Romans 2:6
God "will give to each person according to his works. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality…… he will give eternal life

You keep the commandments of Christ if you have his spirit living in you. You might not do it perfectly all the time, we are still sinners, but you do your best. If you profess you are a Christian and still get drunk every night and practice fornication, very good chance you haven’t been born again and are a lost soul still.

How far and how many times can you backslide into sin before it is determined “You were never saved in the first place?”

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation

.How do we know we are "in " Christ?
1 John 3:24
Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us. “

1 John 2:4-6
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.”

The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
(2 Corinthians 5:17-18 ESV)

.
Christ gave his priests the authority to forgive sins. That is the ministry of reconciliation Paul is speaking about.

I

know that, it’s addressing true doctrine, obedient living, and fervent devotion

. I thought you believe you are saved by faith alone yet here you are listing works?

My faith produces the works and obedience.

It is God’s grace that you are cooperating with that produces the works. If you do not have works but only faith are you still saved?

I am Catholic in the Biblical sense, not the Roman sense.

There is no such thing as "Roman " Catholic. In the biblical sense those in the universal Church have been given the gift of authority in the person of the successor of Peter.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The point of all this was to draw a clear distinction of what “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” means from a biblical, Christian historical recorded understanding that the Catholic Church is the body Jesus Christ, and there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. But Catholics are pressed here to define what the biblical meaning of Church is.

Church comes from iglesia = latin= ecclessia = greek= quhal= Hebrew =assembly of believers in the “True Presence of God”. Church is a living breathing body of Jesus Christ, without a real living Jesus “True presence” there is no salvation.

I do not disagree that there can be no salvation outside the Catholic Church. However, it can be argued that (some) Jews, Muslims and Protestants are in some way, shape or form part of the Catholic (Universal) Church. Not completely or perfectly of course, but still may be a part.

Amen, you are correct, the Catholic Church never limits God to whom He wills to save or not. The Church built by Jesus Christ, is just obeying what Jesus handed down to her from His apostles. She is not teaching anything different here that Jesus did not command her to teach.

For salvation begins its journey here from 1Timothy 3:15… in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

peace be with you

 

[Fisher]

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Romans 3:10, “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Romans 6:23, “For the wages of sin is death; **but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” **

Nothing in this life is free, not even salvation. That’s right, not even salvation! Jesus paid a great price with His own precious blood. It is Jesus Who has the scars in His hands, feet, head, back and side. Jesus was beaten beyond recognition… “As many were astonied at thee; HIS VISAGE WAS SO MARRED more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men” (Isaiah 52:14).

Eternal life is a gift. Even though a gift is free, it MUST be accepted. If I buy someone a gift and place it under the Christmas tree, the gift will sit there until someone claims it. Jesus has purchased you a gift, it is sitting in Heaven with your name on it, but you MUST reach out by faith and receive it. If you don’t, then it will go unclaimed. Eternal life is a FREE gift from God… “But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the FREE GIFT is of many offences unto justification” (Romans 5:15,16). How much plainer could the Bible be concerning the gift of eternal life?

Let’s say you go out and buy me a nice gift. When you offer it to me, I open my wallet and try to pay you some money. You say, “no, no, it’s a gift!” I continue to try to pay you for your gift, but you refuse. This is no different than the person who seeks to impress God with their own self-righteousness. Eternal life is a gift my friend and there’s nothing you can do to buy it. If you try to earn it, then it is no longer a gift. You can observe the Seven Sacraments all you want, but it will avail you no good on Judgment Day. You had better receive the gift of God, so that Christ’s righteousness will be imputed to your record. We need HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

John 5:13… “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life…”
Salvation is not a matter of praying some special words. The publican merely cried out, “God be merciful to me a sinner.” The thief on the cross simply asked Jesus to “remember” him, and Jesus most certainly did. It was their faith in Christ and not their words, that brought salvation. Both men acknowledged their guilt of sin and turned to Jesus Christ for forgiveness. There is nothing “magic” about the words you pray, it is your faith (trust) upon Jesus Christ that brings salvation. It is your faith that causes you to call upon Jesus to forgive your sins and take you to Heaven. God wants to save you more than you could ever want to be saved (2nd Peter 3:9).

Salvation is very simple—we are sinners and Jesus is the Savior. Anyone who believes on the name of Jesus for salvation becomes a part of God’s family (Romans 10:13; Galatians 3:26). Eternal life is a free gift—freely given and freely received. Salvation is receiving; not giving. Our part is to acknowledge our guilt of sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be forgiven.

Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord **shall **be saved.”

Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[Brandon72]

If it is only an outward expression then how can Peter say to the Jews “be baptized…for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.?” Those are not merely outward signs. How can Paul tell the Corinthians that they were baptized and were “Sanctified and justified?” 1 Cor 6:11
How can Peter say “baptism now saves you?” 1 Pet. 3:21

Baptism saves you because it represents inward faith. It is evidenced by one’s appeal to God for the forgiveness of one’s sins . 1Cor 6 [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. “by the Spirit” no water, spiritual baptism here, regeneration Titus 3:5. Water Baptism does not justify or save anyone. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what saves or justifies a person.

You were grafted in by your baptism and like verse 22 says you must remain in God’s grace “or you too will be cut off.”

Fear here does not refer to a paralyzing fear. Rather, it is the kind of humble fear that does not take God or salvation for granted, or think lightly of his displeasure.
.

Scripture tells us that the apostles held the office of Bishop and they appointed other Bishops and those appointed others. The Bishops of the Catholic Church hold the same office as the apostles and are therefore their successors. Your denomination has no Bishops. It is not the Church.

1 Peter 5:1
So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:

Now that I shown you Peter was an elder, read Titus 1:5 on the qualifications of an Elder.

,

You can lose it by being a sinful person because you have rejected God’s grace.
. Are you a 3, 4, or 6 point Calvinist?

I’m a follower of Christ and his teachings, always searching for the truth and I find that in God’s Holy Scriptures. I surround myself with Christians who are born again believers and a church building that has a pastor who preaches the word of God. I believe most of Calvin’s doctrine because it comes straight from Scripture, but I don’t go by a point system. Hope that helps.

Scripture says to “Obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping a watch over your souls.” Heb. 13:17

That’s why we have elders in the church.

1 Tim 3:15
But if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
. The Catholic Church teaches what Jesus and the apostles taught.

If that is true, why does the catholic church teach that Mary was taken to Heaven while she was still alive? Why the the RC church make the priest stay celibate (even though many don’t) Did Jesus teach we are to pray to Mary or the dead? Did the 12 Apostles?

Believing isn’t enough.

Very very true. We must obey. Anyone can say they believe, but it must be from the regenerated heart, heart of flesh not stone.

Romans 2:6
God "will give to each person according to his works. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality…… he will give eternal life

How far and how many times can you backslide into sin before it is determined “You were never saved in the first place?”

If we backslide God will correct us just like a father does his child. Nothing that the Father gives Jesus will be lost. John 6:44 If a person falls away from the faith, they were never saved to begin with.

.How do we know we are "in " Christ?
1 John 3:24
Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us. “

1 John 2:4-6
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.”

YES!!

.

Christ gave his priests the authority to forgive sins. That is the ministry of reconciliation Paul is speaking about.

Where is this in Scripture?

I. I thought you believe you are saved by faith alone yet here you are listing works?

It is God’s grace that you are cooperating with that produces the works. If you do not have works but only faith are you still saved?

My faith produces works. Works are following Jesus Christ-loving God with all your heart, body and mind, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc… We don’t live by the law, no one can do it perfectly, but if we are a child of God we love like Christ did. We want to help others, we share with others, we want to share Christ with others.

There is no such thing as "Roman " Catholic. In the biblical sense those in the universal Church have been given the gift of authority in the person of the successor of Peter.

Really? Isn’t there a saying that all roads lead to Rome? Doesn’t your rules come from Rome? Isn’t the Vatican in Rome?

I believe if you follow the Holy See, the Catechisms, and all that goes with your beliefs, you trace it all back to Rome, not Christ. Rome is where it all started with your church. So yes, you are a Roman Catholic in my eyes.

 

[Brandon72]

But Jesus taught us that unless we are born of “water and spirit” we will not be saved. That, and the express commandment by Christ to be baptized, suggests that baptism is more than an “outward expression of repentance and faith” (though it is that as well).

Born of water and spirit goes back to Ezekiel 36 [25] I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Christ is not talking about water in the sense of H2O. It’s spiritual water like Ezekiel says.

If that were true, why did the apostles appoint a “successor” to Judas with the laying of hands? When Jesus gave Peter the “keys to the kingdom” that would have been well understood by Peter and the apostles as an “office” of authority - It harkens from Isaiah where the prime minister (second only to the king) had authority over the kingdom and it was an “office” (there were always successors). When Christ told Peter to “feed his flock” are we to think that was for the next 10 years and then the “authority” Jesus exressly gave to Peter and the apostles to forgivesins and teach was no longer necessary? That’s a tough perspective when we stand back and reflect on the larger picture (though I understand your perspective)

Judas’s death was the fulfillment of Ps. 69:25, and his place among the disciples was now empty. Ps. 109:8 Let another take his office. The selection of Matthias as the twelfth apostle was a direct fulfillment of prophecy. That is why a “successor” **had **to be chosen.

We agree that faith is a gift of grace - but that is not the end of the story. If you look at Jesus parable of the sheeps and goats you will find two groups of disciples. Some who believed in Christ (cast demons out in his name - sign of the Holy Spirit) were not saved because they did not feed the hungry, etc - those who did these things were truly God’s desciples.

I’m not sure what your point is here. Sheep are the elect of God, goats are non elect. No one was justified because they fed the hungry. There will be many who say they preformed miracles in Jesus name but Jesus will tell them He never knew them.

As James said - “faith without works is dead”. We are not saved by works alone, we are not saved by faith alone - it is not either, but “both”. As creatures of Christ we will, as an obedience of faith, follow his commandments - those commandments include many works.

What is your idea of works of faith?

Agreed in part - but I do believe scripture shows us we can really believe, really be “justified” and yet lose faith and lose salvation. Look at Romans when the gentile “believers” grafted into the rootstock (so justified) are warned by paul that they can be broken out of the rootstock if they don’t perservere. So I ultimately don’t think the argument that those who fail to do works were “never” justified/saved holds water.

I disagree, Scripture does not teach we loose our salvation. If not saved, someone can loose their faith which was never genuine to begin with, but once justified we will never be lost. Romans 8:[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

• amen - faith does produce works and obedience.

We agree, but again what are your works produced? Is it saying the rosary or doing what Jesus actually taught?

As to “Catholic” - one way to look at it is a form of obedience - obedience to the authority given to Peter and the apostles, and their successors. Interestingly, God gave us a structure of authority in the old covenant (a shadow of things to have greater fulfillment in the new) - Jesus acknowledged the chair of Moses. Jesus repeated the pattern, in greater fulfillment in the new covenant, expressly giving the 12 apostles (see the connection to 12 tribes) authority with Peter alone the keys (like Moses).

Just as in the Old Covenant, many jews rebelled against Moses authority (miriam and Aaron - and then Korah - each chastized by God for it), so we have many christians today rebelling against the authority given to the apostles and their successors.

I am not rebelling against the Apostles (Paul, Matthew, Peter, etc…). I am rebelling against the false teachings of the Roman Holy See. Christ is my Savior, not Pope John Doe or anyone else.

That being said - we all, believers, make up the body of Christ.

AMEN!!

Blessings to you Brian!!

Brandon

 

[elvisman]

Born of water and spirit goes back to Ezekiel 36 [25] I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Christ is not talking about water in the sense of H2O. It’s spiritual water like Ezekiel says.

Water – H2O is precisely what Jesus was talking about in** John 3**** – so was Ezekiel. *****THAT’s ***why Jesus told the apostles to BAPTIZE in the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit at the end of Matthew’s Gospel.

That’s why Peter tells us that 8 persons were “saved through water”. God used water to cleanse the earth of evil and does it again through water Baptism. Peter goes on to say in the next verse, “This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:21)

Judas’s death was the fulfillment of Ps. 69:25, and his place among the disciples was now empty. Ps. 109:8 Let another take his office. The selection of Matthias as the twelfth apostle was a direct fulfillment of prophecy. That is why a “successor” **had **to be chosen.

Yes, it IS a prophetic fulfillment. It is also a CLEAR example of Apostolic Succession. It’s not either/or – it’s BOTH/and.
**This is the problem with Sola Scriptura. It rejects every action of the Early Church. The church Fathers spoke VOLUMES about Apostolic succession. **

Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch, who were BOTH Bishops from the 1st century KNEW the Apostles and BOTH wrote about Apostolic succession being necessary to identify the TRUE Church.

 

[elvisman]

I’m not sure what your point is here. Sheep are the elect of God, goats are non elect. No one was justified because they fed the hungry. There will be many who say they preformed miracles in Jesus name but Jesus will tell them He never knew them.

Sadly, the WILL be many. They are those who are not part of his** ONE**** Church.**

I disagree, Scripture does not teach we loose our salvation. If not saved, someone can loose their faith which was never genuine to begin with, but once justified we will never be lost. Romans 8:[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

WRONG**. the Bible state over and over and over thqat you CAN lose your salvation and can turn away from a real experiential knowledgeg of Christ (Romans 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Matt. 7:21, 7:19-23, John 15:1-6, Rev. 3:5)**

What does “believing in the Lord Jesus” entail?
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Romans 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)
- Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
**- Those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 7:21, **24:13, 25:31–46, Matt.).

**“He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels” **(Revelation 3:5).
How can he blot out what was never there in the first place.

We agree, but again what are your works produced? Is it saying the rosary or doing what Jesus actually taught?

The Rosary is reflection on the certain events in the life of Christ and is a Biblically-based prayer.
Why on** EARTH**** would he have a problem with it? Why would YOU?**

I am not rebelling against the Apostles (Paul, Matthew, Peter, etc…). I am rebelling against the false teachings of the Roman Holy See. Christ is my Savior, not Pope John Doe or anyone else.
AMEN!!

Brandon

If you state that we, as Catholics believe that the Pope is our Savior – you are bearing false witness, my confused friend.

 

[Fisher]

The Word of God declares that salvation can ONLY be found through Jesus Christ. Acts 4:10-12 clearly teaches that there is NO OTHER NAME by which we can be saved,"…that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. ** Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." **

 

[Brandon72]

WRONG**. the Bible state over and over and over thqat you CAN lose your salvation and can turn away from a real experiential knowledgeg of Christ (Romans 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Matt. 7:21, 7:19-23, John 15:1-6, Rev. 3:5**)

I don’t think so. A false convert maybe, but not a true believer or elect of God.
John 10:28–29 (NIV)
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Are you calling Jesus Christ a liar?

How about this one. This really seals the deal!
Romans 8:38–39 (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What does “believing in the Lord Jesus” entail?
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Romans 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)
- Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
- Those who endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 7:21, 24:13, 25:31–46, Matt.****).

I won’t argue with that!

The Rosary is reflection on the certain events in the life of Christ and is a Biblically-based prayer.
Why on** EARTH**** would he have a problem with it? Why would YOU?**

I have a problem with it because it takes away from God. You put Mary on a pedestal with God. You call her Holy. Only God is Holy. You call her your hope, when Christ is our hope. You ask her to intercede for you when Scripture plainly states Christ is our only mediator between man and God the Father.

If you state that we, as Catholics believe that the Pope is our Savior – you are bearing false witness, my confused friend.

If you call the Pope the “Vicar of Christ,” this implies that he has the same power and authority that Christ has over the Church, right? If I’m wrong shame on me, but if I’m right, that to me is heresy. No man can do what Christ can do, never.

 

[Vico]

…

I have a problem with it because it takes away from God. You put Mary on a pedestal with God. You call her Holy. Only God is Holy. You call her your hope, when Christ is our hope. You ask her to intercede for you when Scripture plainly states Christ is our only mediator between man and God the Father.

…

The definition of holy is virtuous.

You believe that it takes away from God to acknowledge those that he has made holy through the Holy Spirit then?

God, glorious in His angels and saints.

One is Holy, we are all sanctified by the Holy Spirit. All grace comes from God. The Virgin Mary is a shining example of one sanctified by the Holy Spirit, we acknowledge this, to the Glory and honor of God. Also for her choice to cooperated in God’s plan. Hope is in her intecessory prayers and the greatest example of purity, all from God. Christ is mediator because he is the Word made flesh and has brought us the truth. Mary interceeds, as do all that pray for us to the Father, according to the instructions of Saint Paul (1 Timothy 2).

 

[elvisman]

The Word of God declares that salvation can ONLY be found through Jesus Christ. Acts 4:10-12 clearly teaches that there is NO OTHER NAME by which we can be saved,"…that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. **Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." **

PRESCISELY.
That’s what the Catholic Church has been teaching for 2000 years, friend.

 

[elvisman]

I don’t think so. A false convert maybe, but not a true believer or elect of God.
John 10:28–29 (NIV)
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Are you calling Jesus Christ a liar?

How about this one. This really seals the deal!
Romans 8:38–39 (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

WRONG** again.**

---

Rom.** 8:38-39**** doesn’t say that you can’t lose your faith. It merely says that nobody else can take it away from you. However – YOU can walk away.**

---

**You completely ignored the passages I pointed out to you (Romans 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22). These are about people having a REAL faith and an experiential knowledge of Christ – and walking away voluntarily. **

---

Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

---

Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

---

2 Peter 2:20-21****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, *their last condition is worse than their first. ***
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

---

**The Greek word used here is not mere knowledge (Gnosis), but EPIGNOSIS – a real, true, deep experiential knowledge. Ergo - nobody can take your faith away - the Scriptures are clear about that. **
BUT - they are also abundantly clear that you can choose to WALK away from God.

 

[elvisman]

I have a problem with it because it takes away from God. You put Mary on a pedestal with God. You call her Holy. Only God is Holy. You call her your hope, when Christ is our hope. You ask her to intercede for you when Scripture plainly states Christ is our only mediator between man and God the Father.

****Nobody **is holy?? We are ALL called to be holy. Everybody in heaven is holy because nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27). The word *Saint *comes from the Greek word, Hagios which means “holy and pious” – consecrated to God. That’s why Paul was always referring to the Early Church as “saints” (hagios) - “holy ones of God”.

The Church is holy because it is the Body of Christ. Christ identified his very self with his church (Acts 9:4-5). He cannot be part of something that is not holy. Are you now telling me that Jesus is not holy?

****How can you sit there and tell me that ****nobody other than God is holy??
Do you actually believe that Mary is NOT in heaven – that she is in hell??

****As for intercession – you are ****also wrong. We are ALL called upon to intercede in prayer for one another (1 Cor. 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:1-3, Eph 6:18, James 5:16, 1 John 5:16). Whereas, Jesus *is *our only mediator because only *his *blood is the perfect sacrifice before the Father for our sins, our intercession for one another is commanded in the Scriptures.

Rev. 5:8** shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and **Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing. Have you EVER asked anybody to pray for you or a loved one? If you have - guess what - you asked for their intercession . . .

If you call the Pope the “Vicar of Christ,” this implies that he has the same power and authority that Christ has over the Church, right? If I’m wrong shame on me, but if I’m right, that to me is heresy. No man can do what Christ can do, never.

WRONG** again. The pope IS the Vicar of Christ – he is NOT looked upon as Christ. He is Christ’s agent. **A vicar is merely a servant or an agent who stands in the place of the actual sovereign in some administrative dealings within the kingdom.

This is what Jesus himself appointed Peter to do (Matt. 16:16-19, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-18). He didn’t appoint Peter as Himself – but as his agent on earth. Matt. 16:16-19 is a direct reference to Isaiah 22:20–22, where Eliakim is being appointed as a type of “Vicar” or agent. He is also given the Keys of the Kingdom – as was Peter:

In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

 

[Brandon72]

The Roman Catholic Church, just as the Jewish people, have misunderstood Christ’s message as a carnal eating of Christ’s Body. Jesus’ words have been misread to support the the churches doctrine. This doctrine contradicts the Lord’s essential message of the need to solely believe on Christ for salvation. "The bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world,” He is stating that He would offer Himself as a sacrifice, His voluntary lying down of His life, His flesh. He gave His flesh willingly as an atoning sacrifice for the elect and this is for eternal life!

In the Eucharist, the RC church is sacrificing Christ again and again. It is finished. Christ was sacrificed once and that’s it. If you believe and follow Him, eat his flesh and drinking his blood (being symbolic which the Jews couldn’t understand either), you can have eternal life. No need to physically eat Christ, that would be cannibalism.

Para 1357 … bread and wine which, by the power of the Holy Spirit and by the words of Christ, have become the body and blood of Christ. Christ is thus really and mysteriously made present.

If that’s the case, you have to ignore Scripture:
Hebrews 10: 10-14 … we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

How can you keep sacrificing Christ every weekend??

Para 1380 It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence…

I thought Christ is at the right hand of the Father and He would send the Holy Spirit for us? Why would we need Christ to keep coming down every Sunday?
John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter (the Holy Spirit), that he may abide with you for ever Even the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Do you not see any contradiction here with the word of God? I can’t find any church in the New Testament where they called Christ down from Heaven when they broke bread and gave thanks.
(1 Corinthians 10:16-17 ESV)[16] The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? [17] Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

Breaking of the bread, which Jesus commanded us to do, is an occasion when members of the church declare their unity with each other because of their common unity with Christ.

Is this a salvation issue? Not for me. But to keep sacrificing Christ seems to be a false teaching. It doesn’t go with what Christ or His NT writers taught.

Thanks for discussing with me!

Thank you.