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Dokimas
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It may be that my concept of eternity is off, but as I see the sacrifice of Jesus as an eternal fact, there is NO need to offer it again each mass.
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freedomwriter
Guest
This is not an arguement or debate. The topic is No Salvation outside the catholic church is false. Like I said Jn 3:16 says it all. You can go and study the whole text and it still means the same. Tell me what do you find different in this scripture.
Matthew 15:3,6 Jesus said “you have nullified the Word of God, for the sake of your tradition”
Matthew 15:3,6 Jesus said “you have nullified the Word of God, for the sake of your tradition”
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Dokimas
Guest
You say, ‘see this the way you do’ but it’s not me but the Bible.
It’s a remembrance NOT an offering back to God what was eternally offered. We need helpful reminders cuz we so easily get distracted.
We have eternal life through faith in what Jesus did. Jesus is spiritual food and drink to be feasted upon. Not actual physical Jesus.
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Dokimas
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Why do you think it’s your business, Jharek? It’s God’s church not yours.
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Robbinson
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Freedomwriter - I don’t know if you’ve read this entire thread, but if you do, you will see that the teaching of the Church is that protestants and even non-Christians can be saved - though it still remains" through the Church". In that sense - there is not inconsistency between your personal reading of John 3:16 and the Church’s doctrine, for the most part.
However, to be fair and accurate, the Church’s belief that someone not in full communion with the Church can be saved is based upon invincible ignorance (see the earlier posts).
You never did reply to my post/question about how you harmonize John 3:16 with Eph 5:5. Of course its possible to harmonize the verses, but it shows us that we can’t look at John 3:16 in a vacuum (nor can we look at Eph 5:5 or any other verse in a vacuum).
The traditions you suggest Cathlolics use to make void the word of God (a surprising suggestion from a Catholic) is nothing other than the historical “interpretation” of scripture passed down from the apostles. You are applying the “traditions of men”, ironically, if you interpret scripture outside and inconsisent wtih the teachings of the Church - as scripture gave the authority to bind and lose to the apostles and sola scriptura is indeed, a “tradition of men” (created by men 1500 years after Christ and a doctrine which is expressly contrary to scripture (which mentions oral and written authority) and a doctrine which fails its own test - that doctrine isn’t set forth anywhere in scripture
).But I guess we can agree on this - (I’m also a "born again Catholic - all true Christians, regardless of denomination, must be born again in water and Spirit), we must believe in Jesus - that’s a start (scripture tells us even the demons believe, and shudder - but they are not saved).
Blessings,
Brian
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elvisman
Guest
**Ummmm . . . if it’s eternal - it’s going on right now, a minute from now, an hour from now and every Sunday. **
It never stops - so why would you think it would stop at each mass??
Your position makes no sense . . .
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Dokimas
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There’s a difference between helping erring brothers and telling brothers they can’t call themselves catholic.
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Dokimas
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I’m not sure you have the correct understanding of eternal, especially in light of the fact the Bible says Jesus was offered ONCE for all never to be sacrificed again or offered. He brought His own Blood to the Altar where it matters.Ummmm . . . if it’s eternal - it’s going on right now, a minute from now, an hour from now and every Sunday.
It never stops - so why would you think it would stop at each mass??
Your position makes no sense . . .
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Nicea325
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I am sorry my friend,but I have to disagree 100%. The early Christians were already celebrating the Mass (The Lord’s Supper/Breaking of the Bread) so it would equate into a great ursupation of Christ and we both know that is not the case. Read church history and tell me if they were not celebrating the Mass? Second of all, there is a huge reason why Christ instituted the Lord’s Supper and it is a perputual- required action just as the Passover was perpetual.
BTW: God is outside of time.
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Vico
Guest
The Mass or Divine Liturgy is a sacrifice of praise.
Luke 22 (NAB):
[19] Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” [20] And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you. …”
Luke 22 (NAB):
[19] Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” [20] And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you. …”
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freedomwriter
Guest
Sorry i haven’t replied but don’t really understand what Eph 5:5 has to do with Jn 3:16. My point is that Christ offers salvation to everyone whether catholic or not.Freedomwriter - I don’t know if you’ve read this entire thread, but if you do, you will see that the teaching of the Church is that protestants and even non-Christians can be saved - though it still remains" through the Church". In that sense - there is not inconsistency between your personal reading of John 3:16 and the Church’s doctrine, for the most part.
However, to be fair and accurate, the Church’s belief that someone not in full communion with the Church can be saved is based upon invincible ignorance (see the earlier posts).
You never did reply to my post/question about how you harmonize John 3:16 with Eph 5:5. Of course its possible to harmonize the verses, but it shows us that we can’t look at John 3:16 in a vacuum (nor can we look at Eph 5:5 or any other verse in a vacuum).
The traditions you suggest Cathlolics use to make void the word of God (a surprising suggestion from a Catholic) is nothing other than the historical “interpretation” of scripture passed down from the apostles. You are applying the “traditions of men”, ironically, if you interpret scripture outside and inconsisent wtih the teachings of the Church - as scripture gave the authority to bind and lose to the apostles and sola scriptura is indeed, a “tradition of men” (created by men 1500 years after Christ and a doctrine which is expressly contrary to scripture (which mentions oral and written authority) and a doctrine which fails its own test - that doctrine isn’t set forth anywhere in scripture
But I guess we can agree on this - (I’m also a "born again Catholic - all true Christians, regardless of denomination, must be born again in water and Spirit), we must believe in Jesus - that’s a start (scripture tells us even the demons believe, and shudder - but they are not saved).
Blessings,
Brian
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freedomwriter
Guest
Sorry but i will not change the word catholic from my affilation. There is no heresy in God’s Written Word. Thanks anyway God Bless you.
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Dokimas
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Robbinson
Guest
I agree with you - as does the Catholic Church - subject to only to the limitations regarding the doctrine of invincible ignorance.Perhaps I misunderstood you - I thought you were citing John 3:16 - " sola scriptura" - saying it, by itself, stands for the proposition that “anyone who believes in Christ will be saved” and criticized or questioned those in this thread who suggested that this verse doesn’t stand for the proposition that “faith alone” will save us.
In that regard, Eph 5:5 was an illustration of another “literal” verse would suggest that, whether or not one believes in Christ - they will not be saved if they commit the noted sins.
My point being that of course we need to read each verse in the context of others to fully inform our understanding that while faith in Christ is necessary (subject to the potential for salvation, per Church teaching, based on the level of revelation made available to us), faith “alone” is not sufficient because “faith without works is dead” (James) and “even the demons believed” - but they are not saved.
Ultimately - we should preach the gospel to all, by word and by deed and urge all to understand the fullness of the Truth which I believe is contained within the Catholic Church and its teachings. That said - the Holy Spirit is busy working throughout the body of Christ, and then some.
Blessings,
Brian
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elvisman
Guest
Really? Where does it say that he is not offered eternally? Let’s examine very carefully what Heb. 10:10-12 says:
**v. 10 “By this “will,” we have been consecrated through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” **
The Catholic Church taught this to the world with the guidance of the Holy Spirit from the very beginning.
v. 11 "Every priest stands daily at his ministry, offering frequently those same sacrifices that can never take away sins."
That’s why the sacrifice that Jesus made is re-presented during the Mass - just like Jesus commanded ("Do this in memory of me"). **
Christ’s Church would NEVER offer anything else - not a bull or goat or lamb. NOTHING but Christ.
v.12 "But this one (Jesus) offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God"
As I pointed out to you before - the Bible tells us that he is eternally present before the Father in heaven as a perfect sacrifice - the slain Lamb before the foundations of the world (1 Pet. 1:19-20, Rev. 13:8).
To reject this is heresy, friend - pure and simple.
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elvisman
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Just out of curiosity - to which Catholic rite do you belong?
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Brandon72
Guest
Nicea, According to the book of Acts, Christians were breaking bread from house to house. No mention of a bishop saying a prayer and turning the bread into Christ. I can’t seem to find that one.
Also, many RC on here like to link to the early church fathers for theology. What about what St. Augustine wrote about the Eucharist?
“If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us” (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, III).
We do it in remembrance and we are to never forget what Christ did for His elect, that He hung on a cross and spilled His blood so the elect can obtain salvation. The elect have to shoulder their cross everyday to follow Christ.
Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
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freedomwriter
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The Christian rite!!
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Nicea325
Guest
Nope! And I do not read in Acts or anywhere else other than 12 being present when Jesus did the Lord’s Supper and bestowed it to no else. Those 12 men passed on their authority to other men called bishops and so on.Nicea, According to the book of Acts, Christians were breaking bread from house to house. No mention of a bishop saying a prayer and turning the bread into Christ. I can’t seem to find that one.
Also, many RC on here like to link to the early church fathers for theology. What about what St. Augustine wrote about the Eucharist?
“If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us” (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, III).
We do it in remembrance and we are to never forget what Christ did for His elect, that He hung on a cross and spilled His blood so the elect can obtain salvation. The elect have to shoulder their cross everyday to follow Christ.
Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16).
Who is the WE in the above? Any person?
As for St.Augustine? Nice try,but next time do not take his words out-of-context as most Protestants do on a regular basis.
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elvisman
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So, you’re a Protestant who merely hijacked the name Catholic.
PRECISELY what I thought . . .
You’re not a heretic for merely calling yourself Catholic and speaking against the Christ’s Church.
**You actually have to have been part of the Body of Christ - the Church - to be a heretic . . . **
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