No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church

[elvisman]

New or old it doesn’t matter! What matters is you are offering a sacrifice when it is not needed. Have you ever read Hebrews chapter 9-11?? It explains everything you need to know about not sacrificing anymore. Jesus did it, it’s over! Stop telling me its eternal because we are not eternal down here!! We are in time, we are not in Heaven. Jesus Christ did the sacrifice once and for all. Daniel 9:27

THAT’S** where you’re wrong - it DOES matter. **

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**What kind of person, who claims to be a Christian would say that his eternal sacrifice doesn’t matter??
**

Answer me this. Why did God have the temple destroyed in 70AD?
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
**Sacrifices of slaughtered ****bulls ****and goats were offered in the Temple. There is no more need for *****that ***kind of sacrifice because JESUS is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

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**Your sins aren’t automatically forgiven just because he died on the cross and redeemed the world. You must repent and come to him with a contrite heart – EVERY TIME **you sin.

---

Tell me something – are you regenerated once – or every time you repent and come to God for forgiveness?

If He entered in once, how can a priest keep calling Him down???
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

.

Hebrews 10:12, …after he had offered** one sacrifice** for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 9:28 …Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many

See the pattern here? If Christ was offered one time, why do the priest offer him over and over again. Breaking bread and drinking the cup is supposed to be symbolic. Roman catholics take Scripture and twist the true meaning. Do this in “remembrance of me” doesn’t mean sacrifice me. He tells us to do it to remember His sacrifice.

I am done arguing with you. This is useless. Let’s agree to disagree.

God Bless
Please show me - in Scripture** - WHERE** it says that eating and drinking his blood is symbolic. You can’t because that’s not what it says.**

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You’re done arguing with me because you simply cannot grasp what Scripture says about his ETERNAL sacrifice.

 

[elvisman]

If you had just answered the question instead of being rude, I’d have told you to follow my colors and you’ll get your answer.

Have a nice night.

**Like I said - ***This is a ******pattern *with you on every thread we’ve ever debated on.
You try to derail the thread when you have lost the argument.

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You*** refuse****** to answer when I ask you what you disagree with because you have no answer.***
Just be honest with yourself.

 

[Dokimas]

**Like I said - ***This is a ********pattern ***with you on every thread we’ve ever debated on.
You try to derail the thread when you have lost the argument.

---

You*** refuse****** to answer when I ask you what you disagree with because you have no answer.***
Just be honest with yourself.

Nice to get your response.

 

[Dokimas]

THAT’S** where you’re wrong - it DOES matter. **

---

**What kind of person, who claims to be a Christian would say that his eternal sacrifice doesn’t matter??
**
**Sacrifices of slaughtered ****bulls ****and goats were offered in the Temple. There is no more need for *****that ***kind of sacrifice because JESUS is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

---

**Your sins aren’t automatically forgiven just because he died on the cross and redeemed the world. You must repent and come to him with a contrite heart – EVERY TIME **you sin.

---

Tell me something – are you regenerated once – or every time you repent and come to God for forgiveness?

Please show me - in Scripture** - WHERE** it says that eating and drinking his blood is symbolic. You can’t because that’s not** what it says.

---

**You’re done arguing with me because you simply **cannot grasp what Scripture says about his ETERNAL sacrifice.

You seem to have trouble understanding what others say. Brandon didn’t say that the eternal sacrifice of Jesus didn’t matter. What he meant, IMO, is that it doesn’t matter whether the sacrifice the CC offers is new or old, it’s not needed because it was all done by Jesus, our High Priest.

You ask about the verse that tells us the Blood and Body of Jesus in communion are to be taken as symbols. It’s in the same verse that tells us not to take Jesus literally when He told us to cut off a hand or pluck out an eye if they cause us to stumble.

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Brandon72
How do you explain this? All the RC on this post seem to think that the mass is not a re-sacrifice, but everything I learn about your the RCC says the complete opposite. What this priest says about the mass makes me so sad to think that many are falling for this heresy. He reaches up to Heaven?? It actually makes me very angry that you would make Christ your puppet. Who are we as the created beings to think we can call Jesus Christ off of His throne, to be sacrificed over and over again!!??

HE IS OUR KING, AND WE DO HIS WILL, HE DOESN’T DO OURS!! AMEN!!

EXACTLY! Read your own words in bold and tell me who being just a creatue has the nerve and arrogance to say what God can and cannot do? If Jesus said THIS IS MY BODY, then it is EXACTLY what He said-HIS BODY and not a SYMBOL you insist.

Brandon show me ONE place in scripture where God declares something and it does not happen? Case in point, “Let there be light” and so on. So how is: THIS IS MY BODY, not a declaration from God?

 

[Brandon72]

You seem to have trouble understanding what others say. Brandon didn’t say that the eternal sacrifice of Jesus didn’t matter. What he meant, IMO, is that it doesn’t matter whether the sacrifice the CC offers is new or old, it’s not needed because it was all done by Jesus, our High Priest.

You ask about the verse that tells us the Blood and Body of Jesus in communion are to be taken as symbols. It’s in the same verse that tells us not to take Jesus literally when He told us to cut off a hand or pluck out an eye if they cause us to stumble.

 

[Brandon72]

EXACTLY! Read your own words in bold and tell me who being just a creatue has the nerve and arrogance to say what God can and cannot do? If Jesus said THIS IS MY BODY, then it is EXACTLY what He said-HIS BODY and not a SYMBOL you insist.

Brandon show me ONE place in scripture where God declares something and it does not happen? Case in point, “Let there be light” and so on. So how is: THIS IS MY BODY, not a declaration from God?

Just like my brother Dokimos has stated. Do you take it literally when Jesus said to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand? “This is my body” is not literal. John 6 is about the bread from Heaven, Christ. Did Christ mean he was a piece of bread? A literal piece of bread? Of course not, just like when He said at the last supper, “this is my body take and eat”. It was symbolic just like John 6.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

New or old it doesn’t matter!

Brandon it is neither new or old. So me where eternity starts so I can judge it old or new

What matters is you are offering a sacrifice when it is not needed.

Not a sacrifice but the sacrifice. The once and for all sacrifice of Christ. Your misunderstanding is failing to realize the eternal aspect of it. There is a reason Christ is seen as a lamb slain in Revelation.

Have you ever read Hebrews chapter 9-11??

I have

It explains everything you need to know about not sacrificing anymore.

I agree with you. There is no more. nor can there be another sacrifice of Christ, Just His once and for all sacrifice. An eternal sacrifice.

Stop telling me its eternal because we are not eternal down here!!

Christ’s sacrifice is eternal. He is not bound by time nor is His sacrifice.

9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained **eternal **redemption for us.

Oh the irony What happened to:

Stop telling me its eternal because we are not eternal down here!!

Hebrews 9:28 …Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many

Yes, one time… for all eternity.

Roman catholics take Scripture and twist the true meaning.

Really? What is the Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists and all the other Christians who believe in the Real Presence ecxuse?

I am done arguing with you. This is useless. Let’s agree to disagree.

This is very common attitude with those posters who come in here guns a blazing. They realize they are not up against the Church that their fundamentalist web-sites told them about but rather the true Catholic Church. I can see why that would frustrate you.

Happy trails. God bless you.

 

[elvisman]

You seem to have trouble understanding what others say. Brandon didn’t say that the eternal sacrifice of Jesus didn’t matter. What he meant, IMO, is that it doesn’t matter whether the sacrifice the CC offers is new or old, it’s not needed because it was all done by Jesus, our High Priest.

You ask about the verse that tells us the Blood and Body of Jesus in communion are to be taken as symbols. It’s in the same verse that tells us not to take Jesus literally when He told us to cut off a hand or pluck out an eye if they cause us to stumble.

First of all - you’re BOTH wrong when you refer to a “new” or “old” sacrifice. It’s NEITHER. It is an ETERNAL sacrifice - which means that it is not constrained by time.

Secondly - I asked Brandon to show me the verse that says the Eucharist is to be taken symbolically. Now, YOU have responded with:
“It’s in the same verse that tells us not to take Jesus literally when He told us to cut off a hand or pluck out an eye if they cause us to stumble.”
**
**Tell me - where is that verse?
While you’re at it, maybe you show me the verse that says the Eucharist is to be taken symbolically.

---

You seem to have a very difficult time understanding the word of God . . .

 

[elvisman]

Just like my brother Dokimos has stated. Do you take it literally when Jesus said to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand? “This is my body” is not literal. John 6 is about the bread from Heaven, Christ. Did Christ mean he was a piece of bread? A literal piece of bread? Of course not, just like when He said at the last supper, “this is my body take and eat”. It was symbolic just like John 6.

In 1 Cor. 11:27-30, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly: “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”
This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only a symbol.

The Real Presence in the Eucharist is unanimously supported by the writings of the Early Church Fathers from the first century on. Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine, etc., all believed in and taught the doctrine of the Real Presence in the Eucharist. In fact, the early Christians were accused of cannibalism because of this belief and were tortured and put to death because of it.

*In John 6:60, his disciples said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” ***
Did Jesus explain what he "really" meant? No, he said: "Does this shock you?" He knew that some would not believe because they didn’t have true faith from the Father.

Protestants are fond of pointing out that Jesus said, "…the flesh profits nothing…" when refuting the Real Presence. They are correct on one count: OUR flesh profits us nothing. BUT Jesus’ flesh profits us everything. The sacrifice of his physical body profits us salvation. Would Jesus have told his disciples that HIS flesh profits nothing? Absolutely not.
Just as the Paschal Lamb was to be eaten by the Jews - so is our Paschal Lamb - JESUS.

****Lastly - your failure to understand the concept of Eternity and Mosaic Law hinders you from understanding the fulfillment of the Law.

 

[O.S.Luke]

It’s not a terrible generalization. It’s a fact.

It is a terrible generalization, no matter what you say. And that’s a fact.

Peace be with you.

 

[rinnie]

How do you explain this? All the RC on this post seem to think that the mass is not a re-sacrifice, but everything I learn about your the RCC says the complete opposite. What this priest says about the mass makes me so sad to think that many are falling for this heresy. He reaches up to Heaven?? It actually makes me very angry that you would make Christ your puppet. Who are we as the created beings to think we can call Jesus Christ off of His throne, to be sacrificed over and over again!!??

HE IS OUR KING, AND WE DO HIS WILL, HE DOESN’T DO OURS!! AMEN!!

Let me help you out here Brandon. This is from Bishop Wuerl who is actually a Cardinal now. Maybe this will show you.

Quote The great sacrifice was accomplished by Jesus the Priest and victim who offered himself on the altar of the cross for our redemption. This sacrifice need not and cannot be repeated, but it can be re-presented so that we are able, sacramentally and spriitually, to enter it and draw spiritual nourishment from it!! unquote.

Now do you understand it better??

 

[Casslanpepci]

No salvation outside Catholic church?
This comes straight from the Pope:

“Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches”

"LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy — For the second time in a week, **Pope Benedict XVI **has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, **reasserting the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church and saying other Christian communities were either defective or not true churches.**Benedict approved a document released Tuesday from his old office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which repeated church teaching on Catholic relations with other Christians…

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said it was issuing the new document on ecumenism because some contemporary theological interpretations of Vatican II’s ecumenical intent had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.
The new document – formulated as five questions and answers – restates key sections of a 2000 text the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which riled Protestant, Lutheran and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."
“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one Church,” said the document released as the pope vacations at a villa in Lorenzago di Cadore, in Italy’s Dolomite mountains.

The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession – the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles – and therefore their priestly ordinations are not valid, it said…

The document said Orthodox churches were indeed “churches” because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed “many elements of sanctification and of truth.” But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope – a defect, or a “wound” that harmed them, it said…

The document, signed by the congregation prefect, American Cardinal William Levada, was approved by Benedict on June 29, the feast of Saints Peter and Paul – a major ecumenical feast day…"

All of us outside the Catholic church then are doomed to eternal hell fire - unless we convert!

• http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288841,00.html

 

[rinnie]

No salvation outside Catholic church?
This comes straight from the Pope:

“Other Christian Denominations Not True Churches”

"LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy — For the second time in a week, **Pope Benedict XVI **has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, **reasserting the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church and saying other Christian communities were either defective or not true churches.**Benedict approved a document released Tuesday from his old office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which repeated church teaching on Catholic relations with other Christians…

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said it was issuing the new document on ecumenism because some contemporary theological interpretations of Vatican II’s ecumenical intent had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.
The new document – formulated as five questions and answers – restates key sections of a 2000 text the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which riled Protestant, Lutheran and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."
“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one Church,” said the document released as the pope vacations at a villa in Lorenzago di Cadore, in Italy’s Dolomite mountains.

The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession – the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles – and therefore their priestly ordinations are not valid, it said…

The document said Orthodox churches were indeed “churches” because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed “many elements of sanctification and of truth.” But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope – a defect, or a “wound” that harmed them, it said…

The document, signed by the congregation prefect, American Cardinal William Levada, was approved by Benedict on June 29, the feast of Saints Peter and Paul – a major ecumenical feast day…"

All of us outside the Catholic church then are doomed to eternal hell fire - unless we convert!

• http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288841,00.html

So which Pope? Please read 187. You will see that this was quoted from the 3rd Century I believe. Check it out.

 

[Casslanpepci]

Read it again rinnie!

The current Pope issued this statement. It contained points he wrote in 2000 when he was Prefect of The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith!

To reiterate: Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.
"The document, signed by the congregation prefect, U.S. Cardinal William Levada, was** approved by Benedict on June 29,** the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul - a major ecumenical feast day.

Perhaps a 3rd century pope did issue something similar, but this was issued the current Pope Benedict XVI in 2007!

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
EXACTLY! Read your own words in bold and tell me who being just a creatue has the nerve and arrogance to say what God can and cannot do? If Jesus said THIS IS MY BODY, then it is EXACTLY what He said-HIS BODY and not a SYMBOL you insist.

Brandon show me ONE place in scripture where God declares something and it does not happen? Case in point, “Let there be light” and so on. So how is: THIS IS MY BODY, not a declaration from God?

Just like my brother Dokimos has stated. Do you take it literally when Jesus said to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand? “This is my body” is not literal. John 6 is about the bread from Heaven, Christ. Did Christ mean he was a piece of bread? A literal piece of bread? Of course not, just like when He said at the last supper, “this is my body take and eat”. It was symbolic just like John 6.

Oh I see…Jesus was really pulling the Jews leg when he said one must EAT MY FLESH and DRINK my BLOOD or else you have no life? Geeeee…if it was symbolic, funny how so many left because they themselves said: This teaching is hard to ACCEPT.

As for the verses plucking one’s eye out and cutting your hand off? How about I am the vine? How about I am the Gate/Door? Did the people react the same way as they did when he said: THIS IS MY BODY and eat MT FLESH and DRINK my BLOOD?

How many left when he said I am the Vine? The Door? Pluck your eyes?

I do not recall anyone believing Jesus was literally a door or a vine. By the way, notice how Jesus places his hand on bread and blesses it and I do not recall Him doing that with other symbols:Vine,door,etc.

You still did not answer me:

Show me ONE place in scripture where God declares something and it does not happen? Case in point, “Let there be light” and so on. So how is: THIS IS MY BODY, not a declaration from God?

 

[KathleenGee]

I came across a Scripture reading from the Old Testament about the Lord not wanting human sacrifice…and how it has been used by fundamentalists to do away with sacrifice, Jesus fulfilling all.

Then I continued to read the entire passage and the sacrifices and rituals were to be continued in praise of the Lord.

Christ did not intend to do away with the priesthood, rituals, or sacrifice. If He did, there would be no need for his literal presentation of the consecration of bread and wine for the basis of worship and sustenance. It is obvious that at the Last Supper He was bringing to fulfillment that indeed He is the Paschal Lamb whose body and blood continues to physically nurture the Church, promising us He would remain with us.

People can go on and on and on and on…debating and questioning…and all the explanations in the Bible and the hermeneutics presented would be of no avail.

 

[rinnie]

Read it again rinnie!

The current Pope issued this statement. It contained points he wrote in 2000 when he was Prefect of The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith!

To reiterate: Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.
"The document, signed by the congregation prefect, U.S. Cardinal William Levada, was** approved by Benedict on June 29,** the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul - a major ecumenical feast day.

Perhaps a 3rd century pope did issue something similar, but this was issued the current Pope Benedict XVI in 2007!

No No No. Please show me where the Pope said you were going to hell and are doomed.

Let me explain what he said okay. Read my next Post.

 

[rinnie]

Cass… Here is what the Pope said. Okay.

There is no Salvation outside of the CC. ITs case closed. All Salvation comes from Jesus CHrist, and he is the Living CHrist. That is our faith. I think you can agree with that. So rather you agree that its the CC, you can agree salvation comes from Christ So do you see what he is saying? Now remember, we know what that means okay.

Now here is something entirely different. He never condemned you guys.

If anyones getting it, ITS US!! ROMAN CATHOLICS. He was talking to us. Here is what he said in my words.

I am a RC. I KNOW the TRUTH. IT has been revealed to me. If I turn MY back on my faith and refuse to obey the teachings of Jesus CHrist MY SOUL IS IN GRAVE DANGER.

He is saying that I was taught the truth, I know it in my heart, I am held accountable for living my faith.

So if I know the truth, and then say oh well, I like it my way better, and I am going to turn my back on the RCC and live my Way I AM DOOMED.

He is saying come back, confess your sins while you can, and get it right with God. I cannot live with the protestant rules because I like something they are doing better, or its easier, or fits my life better. I am held to the truth because it has been revealed to ME. A Protestant must live with the faith they have been given. But I am Catholic I am held accountable.

You cannot be HELD accountable because it has not been revealed to you. It has to me, I know the truth, and I must Live the truth as it was given to me.

Like if I go to Communion and I KNOW I am in mortal sin, I have condemned myself in front of GOD. If you Church does not teach that and you go to communion in a state of Mortal sin you not held like I am. Heck you may not even know the difference between Mortal and Venial sin, so God would not hold you to it. But I DO. AND I AM. Do you see what I am saying?

I KNOW the RCC holds the FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH. SO I cannot turn my back on that!! ITs us he is talking to.

But he also says he acknowledges ALL faiths for the truth that do they have, And prays that they will someday all become part of the RCC because it has the fullness of the Truth.

In order to have the fullness of the Truth you must have all of the Sacraments instituted by Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

I noted the reference to ‘brother’ among some non-Catholics here.

And then other comments about being doomed…and the Church through Pope Benedict correctly saying there are false interpretations of the Catholic Church and its nature.

First of all, the Catholic Church in all its parishes around the world is constantly praying for our separated brethren and for your return to unity at one table…as Jesus Himself prayed for…that is in Scripture and to remain in divisions is not the will of the Father.

It is not the will of the Father that we be divided. We are called to being one in the Lord and that our Christian brotherhood can be affirmed. True faith has the mark of certitude, not continual doubting, a type of intellectual relativism that one cannot truly believe in any absolute teachings even though people affirm the bible.

Christ did not pass out Bibles. The Apostles did not pass out Bibles…How in the world, then, was the understanding of Scripture? Remember, Moses threw down the clay tablets the finger of God Himself wrote on!! because people turned away from God…so a physical element does not have the same veneration as the human heart before God.

The open practice of idolatry by the Jews of the Golden Calf was an event before they even entered into the Promised Land. So by the time the Jews got there, and Moses was denied entrance in spite of his overall fidelity to God, the Law was already broken and meaningless to a certain sense.

It was Jesus Christ, the Living Stone, the New Covenant – The God Man, not a book of books – that we depend on. Jesus Christ is at the heart of all teachings of the Word. Jesus is the Word. And Catholicism teaches that it is through the Word of Jesus Christ that the Father created the universe. Again, no book.

The Apostles, not one or two, but 12 were chosen by the Lord to learn from Him, to be His witnesses. And they could do nothing until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit confirmed them in their consecration to truth and spirit, and Who continues to teach the Church. Jesus also said He would always remain with us…in the Eucharist…and in spirit and truth and through His chosen ministers, the presbyters by name then, the priesthood by name today.

And they chose their successors would would likewise be faithful to the Oral Tradition given them by Jesus Christ, the successor to Peter, the rock, never broken. This unity, however, did not insure that each successor would be holy. No one in himself has a monopoly on holiness and this is something we must all work on with the help of God’s grace through Christ and the sacraments.

There are 7 sacraments. Baptism – and this rite is the practice done by practically all Protestant denominations and in essence, their followers are being baptized into the Catholic Church irregardless…How many say they finally feel at home when they enter the Catholic Church. The other is confession, instituted on the evening of Resurrection Sunday when Christ gave the Apostles and inherently their successors the power to forgive sin and thus also bring a social dimension which is one of the marks of being a church, a social institution. There is the sacrament of the Eucharist, this practice always there since Pentecost. There is the sacrament of Confirmation which confirms our faith in Jesus Christ and gives us strength of faith. There is the sacrament of Holy Orders…the foundation on the Church without we would have our sacraments – outward signs of the inner reality of Jesus Christ. We have the sacrament of matrimony, the Catholic marriage of two people freely giving themselves to each other is life long and binding, never to be broken. Finally there is the sacrament of Healing or Exteme Unction, formerly used only for the dying, now also used for physical and other forms of disease.

What Pope Benedict is verifying here is that the Catholic/Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran are considered as churches because they have their forms of Holy Orders, and other sacraments. Each time a sacrament is removed, a congregation is broken farther away from its Mother, the Church and it is that much harder for people to return to our common unity. So those that are lacking in the sacraments are called ecclesial communities. It does not mean they do not have Christ and their own creeds and practices.

Jesus said whoever eats His body and drinks His blood will have eternal life must be kept in God’s hands. We cannot judge. The common belief practice we Catholics and Protestants can share is the recitation of the Our Father and common devotions to Sacred Scripture. People who earnestly seek God, even those who try to follow the Golden Rule, to see their relationship to all humanity to work for the greater good, all have a place in the walk to salvation. And this is the teaching of Vatican II.

I cannot see ecclesial communities as having the fullness of faith without the papacy and the sacraments, as well as our witness of the communion of saints. But i witness all the time the faith and practices of good Protestants and others who affirm to me the presence of God. People are traumatized by false teachings against Catholicism. Many can never overcome it. Others who convert have had to struggle to overcome all their doubts and reservations.

In Vatican II, if there is any remark about anybody being DOOMED it is the CATHOLICS. The Church affords us the greatest amount of grace and direction for our walk in salvation. But Catholics who follow all the Church practices and the letter of the law, if they do not have charity in their heart, not only are they doomed but their punishment will be that more severe.