"No War Is Ever Holy"

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

Let me remind you what my Church declared at Vatican II also posted above. Point 80 of Gaudium et Spes states unequivocally

Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation.

Let me remind you that the object of the bombings was not to destroy “entire cities of extensive areas along with their population.”

The object of the bombings was to end the Pacific War before a winter which would have seen 5 million dead.

 

[Matt25]

Ani Ibi:

Let me remind you that the object of the bombings was not to destroy “entire cities of extensive areas along with their population.”

The object of the bombings was to end the Pacific War before a winter which would have seen 5 million dead.

The object of the bombing was to destroy the cities together with their inhabitants. The effect of this might have been to end the war earlier (actually it wasn’t but thats beside the point).

To clarify the church’s attitude catholic.net/us_catholic_news/template_article.phtml?channel_id=1&article_id=3331
Pope Paul VI called America’s use of the atomic bomb “butchery of untold magnitude.” Pope John Paul II called it “a self-destruction of mankind” and named Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Auschwitz as places marked by man’s sin that should now be places of pilgrimage…

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen in his series of talks titled “What Now America?” said that, by our tacit refusal to recognize the evil of the atomic bomb, Americans became susceptible to a new notion of freedom — one divorced from morality.

“When, I wonder, did we in America ever get into this idea that freedom means having no boundaries and no limits?” he asked. “I think it began on the 6th of August 1945 at 8:15 am when we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. … Somehow or other, from that day on in our American life, we say we want no limits and no boundaries.”

 

[Hospitaller]

Matt25:

Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen in his series of talks titled “What Now America?” said that, by our tacit refusal to recognize the evil of the atomic bomb, Americans became susceptible to a new notion of freedom — one divorced from morality.

Most of the ones directly concerned with the effects of dropping Fat Man and Little Boy, i.e. combat troops slated to invade Japan, would disagree with you I’m fairly certain.

You will, of course, respond by saying that Japanese civilians were just as concerned by the results.

 

[koda]

With all due respect, is an attempt being made in this thread to condone our use of the atomic bomb on Japan?

 

[KathleenElsie]

You only quoted the part of the article and some of the words of the Popes. You IMHO try to mix words so they say what you want them to and not what the original intent of the article was ment to say.

Matt25:

To clarify the church’s attitude catholic.net/us_catholic_news/template_article.phtml?channel_id=1&article_id=3331

A little further down in the article JP2 said:

Pope John Paul II himself said he was “personally grateful for what America did for the world in the darkest days of the 20th century.”

This article l went on with more of the same. I hope and pray that this world never again finds itself in the position that the “N” word is used as the means to an end. But, man being man it could come to that and I pray that we use common sense and not anger prevales.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

There was little or no manafacture of military munitions or materials in Hiroshima or Nagasaki at the time of the destruction of these cities.

If I remember correctly off the top of my head about 90% of Nagasaki was in the weapons business.

Hiroshima’s primary value as a military target consisted of the fact that it was the Headquarters of the Japanese 2nd Army; the entire army was engaged in calisthenics on a parade field in the city center on August 6th when the bomb exploded almost directly overhead. The entire army was vaporized, the equivalent of the entire United States Marine Corps vanishing in a split second. (William Manchester, The Glory and the Dream. Boston: Little, Brown, and Co., 1974, pp. 383-384.)

Nagasaki’s primary value as a military target consisted of the fact that 90% of the city’s labor force worked in a huge complex of manufacturing plants owned by the Mitsubishi company, making torpedoes for the Japanese Navy and small arms for the Japanese Army; all the plants in the city were operating at full production on August 9th when the second bomb exploded. (William Craig, The Fall of Japan. New York: Galahad Books, 1967, pg 88.)

And:
gmvsimp:

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of considerable industrial and military significance. Some military camps were located nearby such as the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata’s 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a major supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. It was chosen as a target because it had not suffered damage from previous bombing raids, allowing an ideal environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb. The city was mobilized for “all-out” war, with thousands of conscripted women, children and Koreans working in military offices, military factories and building demolition and with women and children training to resist any invading force.

Nagasaki during World War II

The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

In contrast to many modern aspects of Nagasaki, the residences almost without exception were of old-fashioned Japanese construction, consisting of wood or wood-frame buildings, with wood walls (with or without plaster), and tile roofs. Many of the smaller industries and business establishments were also housed in buildings of wood or other materials not strong enough to withstand explosions. Nagasaki had been permitted to grow for many years without conforming to any definite city zoning plan; residences were erected adjacent to factory buildings and to each other almost as closely as possible throughout the entire industrial valley.

See link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic…to_the_bombings

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

The inhabitants of Hiroshima were not warned to evacuate that city by the Americans

They were, but whether they were or not is not central. The following reality is central: no supplies = no army.
gmvsimp:

On August 8, 1945 leaflets were dropped and warnings were given to Japan by Radio Saipan. (The area of Nagasaki did not receive warning leaflets until August 10, though the leaflet campaign covering the whole country was over a month into its operations.

The ones on and after August 8 said:

TO THE JAPANESE PEOPLE: America asks that you take immediate heed of what we say on this leaflet. We are in possession of the most destructive explosive ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent in explosive power to what 2000 of our giant B-29s can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate. We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when just one atomic bomb fell on that city. Before using this bomb to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, we ask that you now petition the Emperor to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better and peace-loving Japan. You should take steps now to cease military resistance. Otherwise, we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war. link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic…www.pbs.org.335

The Japanese military knew exactly what weapon the Americans were talking about. Why? Because the Japanese had two separate nuclear bomb development programs up and running: one in Tokyo and one in Korea.

Matt25:

Let me remind you what my Church declared at Vatican II also posted above. Point 80 of Gaudium et Spes states unequivocally

Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself.

And let me remind you that the object of the H & N bombings was not the indiscriminate destruction of entire cities…along with their population. The object of the H & N bombings was to end the Pacific War before the subsequent winter caused approximately 5 million deaths. Therefore the H & N bombings were not a crime against God and man himself.

It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation.

Given the guidance systems which we have now, these sorts of bombings may more frequently merit unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation now. But no one was in possession of any sort of guidance systems during WW2.

H & N has been thoroughly debated here. If you want to debate H & N further then please go to that thread.

 

[Writer]

zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=76484

Here is the “Appeal for Peace,” launched today by religious leaders gathered in Lyon, at the conclusion of the three-day meeting “Men and Religions.” The theme of the meeting was “The Courage to Forge a Spiritual Humanism of Peace.” It was organized by the Rome-based Community of Sant’Egidio and the Archdiocese of Lyon and attended by leading figures of some of the world’s major religions. …

We pay homage to the memory of John Paul II, a man of dialogue and a tenacious witness of the sanctity of peace. We believe that without peace this world becomes inhuman. We have heard the cry of many, suffering from war and terrorism. We have questioned and deepened our commitment to our respective religious traditions and we have found in them a message of peace. We prayed for peace in the world.

It is in the name of peace that we address the believers of our traditions, men and women of good will, and those who still believe that violence makes the world a better place. To them we say: It is time to stop the use of violence! Human life is sacred. Violence humiliates human beings and diminishes the cause of those who make use of it. The world is tired of living in fear. Religions do not want violence, war or terrorism. We proclaim this with conviction! …Peace is the name of God. God never wants the elimination of the other. God is moved with compassion for the victims of violence, terror and war. Those who legitimate their interests or justify violence in the name of God debase religion. No war is ever holy. Humanity is not improved by violence or terror

Okay…let’s simply the debate for the purpose of analysis. You are on Flight 93 with terrorists in control. Do you act, or do you sit passively and allow many more innocents to die?

Discussion topic #2. Is “violence” against violence permitted by law enforcement (or those making legal citizen arrests)? When I used to make arrests as a worker in the corporate security field in a big city environment, the folks I was trying to handcuff frequently did not want to be taken into custody, and there were struggles. That’s the way it is on the streets of our cities.

What you appear to be arguing for is a a naive call for all of us to get along, but it is not grounded in reality. You couldn’t even apply your reasoning to a small city–let alone the management of a nation’s security. Don’t you have any better arguements?

 

[Matt25]

Neither city had been bombed significantly by conventional means prior to the nuclear holocaust. This argues against their being crucial to the Japanese war effort. Furthermore the bombs were dropped in the city centres and industrial plant and military barracks were situated in the outskirts.

The minutes of the Target Committee are online and indicate that Nagasaki was not even originally considered to be a target. dannen.com/decision/targets.html

. Dr. Stearns described the work he had done on target selection. He has surveyed possible targets possessing the following qualification: (1) they be important targets in a large urban area of more than three miles in diameter, (2) they be capable of being damaged effectively by a blast, and (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by next August. Dr. Stearns had a list of five targets which the Air Force would be willing to reserve for our use unless unforeseen circumstances arise. These targets are1) Kyoto - This target is an urban industrial area with a population of 1,000,000. It is the former capital of Japan and many people and industries are now being moved there as other areas are being destroyed. From the psychological point of view there is the advantage that Kyoto is an intellectual center for Japan and the people there are more apt to appreciate the significance of such a weapon as the gadget. (Classified as an AA Target)(2) Hiroshima - This is an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focussing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target. (Classified as an AA Target)(3) Yokohama - This target is an important urban industrial area which has so far been untouched. Industrial activities include aircraft manufacture, machine tools, docks, electrical equipment and oil refineries. As the damage to Tokyo has increased additional industries have moved to Yokohama. It has the disadvantage of the most important target areas being separated by a large body of water and of being in the heaviest anti-aircraft concentration in Japan. For us it has the advantage as an alternate target for use in case of bad weather of being rather far removed from the other targets considered. (Classified as an A Target)(4) Kokura Arsenal - This is one of the largest arsenals in Japan and is surrounded by urban industrial structures. The arsenal is important for light ordnance, anti-aircraft and beach head defense materials. The dimensions of the arsenal are 4100’ x 2000’. The dimensions are such that if the bomb were properly placed full advantage could be taken of the higher pressures immediately underneath the bomb for destroying the more solid structures and at the same time considerable blast damage could be done to more feeble structures further away. (Classified as an A Target)(5) Niigata - This is a port of embarkation on the N.W. coast of Honshu. Its importance is increasing as other ports are damaged. Machine tool industries are located there and it is a potential center for industrial despersion. It has oil refineries and storage. (Classified as a B Target)(6) The possibility of bombing the Emperor’s palace was discussed. It was agreed that we should not recommend it but that any action for this bombing should come from authorities on military policy. It was agreed that we should obtain information from which we could determine the effectiveness of our weapon against this target. B. It was the recommendation of those present at the meeting that the first four choices of targets for our weapon should be the following:

            a. Kyoto
           b. Hiroshima
           c. Yokohama
           d. Kokura Arsenal..

A. It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released.

B. In this respect Kyoto has the advantage of the people being more highly intelligent and hence better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon. Hiroshima has the advantage of being such a size and with possible focussing from nearby mountains that a large fraction of the city may be destroyed. The Emperor’s palace in Tokyo has a greater fame than any other target but is of least strategic value.

 

[Matt25]

Writer:

Okay…let’s simply the debate for the purpose of analysis. You are on Flight 93 with terrorists in control. Do you act, or do you sit passively and allow many more innocents to die?

Discussion topic #2. Is “violence” against violence permitted by law enforcement (or those making legal citizen arrests)? When I used to make arrests as a worker in the corporate security field in a big city environment, the folks I was trying to handcuff frequently did not want to be taken into custody, and there were struggles. That’s the way it is on the streets of our cities.

What you appear to be arguing for is a a naive call for all of us to get along, but it is not grounded in reality. You couldn’t even apply your reasoning to a small city–let alone the management of a nation’s security. Don’t you have any better arguements?

I thought the topic was “no war is ever Holy” ie " Those who legitimate their interests or justify violence in the name of God debase religion"

This does not mean that religions cannot support wars launched by the civil power. It means that religions should not launch wars in the name of God. It’s the kind of thing which I think would be repugnant to the mind of Christ.

 

[Hospitaller]

koda:

With all due respect, is an attempt being made in this thread to condone our use of the atomic bomb on Japan?

Thought that would be rather obvious.

 

[Hospitaller]

Matt25:

Neither city had been bombed significantly by conventional means prior to the nuclear holocaust. This argues against their being crucial to the Japanese war effort. Furthermore the bombs were dropped in the city centres and industrial plant and military barracks were situated in the outskirts.

As I recall, the reason for that was that the U.S. Command wanted to assess the affects of an atomic strike against a (previously undamaged) city.

 

[gilliam]

I thought the purpose of the thread was to discuss if war was ever holy.

To me Just war == Holy war. At least that is the way I read Cathlolic history on the use of the term ‘holy war’. (see my previous post on the Council of Lyons).

Since the CCC allows for a just war, then it allows for a holy war.

 

[abcdefg]

Matt25:

This does not mean that religions cannot support wars launched by the civil power. It means that religions should not launch wars in the name of God. It’s the kind of thing which I think would be repugnant to the mind of Christ.

when was the last time religions launch wars instead of goverment? Islamoterrorists’ jihad comes to mind

 

[Steven_Merten]

Matt25:

I thought the topic was “no war is ever Holy” ie " Those who legitimate their interests or justify violence in the name of God debase religion"

Hello Matt,

Do we agree that God punished the Israelites with forty years lost in the desert because of an Israelite invasionary reconosance team who discouraged the Israelites from going to war as God commanded?

Would you agree that what we do know for sure is that these men who protested against a war commanded by God were evil, wicked unholy men?

NAB NUM 14:34"Forty days you spent scouting the land; fory years shall you suffer for your crimes: one year for each day. Thus you will realize what it means to oppose me. I, the Lord have sworn to do this to all this wicked community that conspired against me: here in the desert they shall die to the last man."

And so it happened to the men whom Moses had sent to reconnoiter the land and whom on returning had set the whole community grumbling against him by spreading discouraging reports about the land where struck down by the LORD and died.

NAB NUM 13:31We cannot attack these people; they are too strong for us. So they spread discouraging reports among the Israelites about the land they had scouted, saying, “The land that we explored is a country that consumes its inhabitants. And all the people we saw there are huge men, veritable giants. We felt like mere grasshoppers, and so we must have seemed to them.”

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

Neither city … least strategic value.

I’m wondering if you would be kind enough to post the Hiroshima/Nagasaki material on the Truman thread, please? I only responded to a few of your claims. To continue this is to derail the thread.

 

[Writer]

abcdefg:

when was the last time religions launch wars instead of goverment? Islamoterrorists’ jihad comes to mind

Precisely. To me the heart of the issue is the failure of pacifism in general, but to deny to address this area the creator of this thread appears to be wishing for a world in which wars were managed by the Vatican, a very strange desire if you ask me. As I have mentioned in previous posts along this train of thought (to which the creator of this thread did not reply, if I recall accurately), we are called to follow our leadership and consider them placed there by God. The Vatican has no place in taking military action.

 

[Hospitaller]

Steven Merten:

Hello Matt,

Do we agree that God punished the Israelites with forty years lost in the desert because of an Israelite invasionary reconosance team who discouraged the Israelites from going to war as God commanded?

Would you agree that what we do know for sure is that these men who protested against a war commanded by God were evil, wicked unholy men?

Interesting point.

 

[Evan]

Steven Merten:

Do we agree that God punished the Israelites with forty years lost in the desert because of an Israelite invasionary reconosance team who discouraged the Israelites from going to war as God commanded?

That was a time before the fullness of God’s revelation was at hand. God worked with the people of the time.

With the continuing revelation, God has made his message more clear. He can use more effective means to reveal His love of all humanity.

Not all that is in the OT can be used to justify present day actions. We must look to the fullness of revelation in Jesus Christ.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

Neither city had been bombed significantly by conventional means prior to the nuclear holocaust. This argues against their being crucial to the Japanese war effort.

This does not argue against their being crucial to the Japanese war effort. It is in fact a non sequitur.

Matt25:

Furthermore the bombs were dropped in the city centres and industrial plant and military barracks were situated in the outskirts.

So? Are you assuming that Truman had 21st Century guidance systems? He did not. The bombs were dropped according to a tactic which had been worked out on the European Front. Are you also assuming that munitions workers were not munitions workers when they were at home listening to the radio? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets.

Matt25:

Nagasaki was not even originally considered to be a target.

That is correct. Nagasaki was not originally considered to be a target. The final target selections were Hiroshima and Kokura. Hiroshima was bombed first. On the second bombing flight, Kokura was fogged over.

The pilot did not want to risk getting into difficulties with a live nuke on board, so he flew instead to Nagasaki. Nagasaki was also fogged over, though not as badly as Kokura. The pilot did not want to return to base low on fuel and risk landing with a live nuke on board, so he dropped his ordinance over Nagasaki.

Let us remember that the Americans had only three bombs. The first was tested. The second was dropped over Hiroshima and did not produce a surrender. It was critical to drop the third. The target which presented itself in the fog of war was Nagasaki.

Matt25:

It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance.

Yes.

Matt25:

Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan

No. The greatest psychological effect had to be against the Japanese military. The Japanese military had no use for the general population other than to equip them with sticks and stones – literally in the event of an American invasion.

Matt25:

and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released.

Because, after Nagasaki, the Americans had no more nukes. They also knew that the Germans and Japanese had their own nukes in development. If the Japanese had any inkling that the Americans were bluffing, they would not have surrendered.

Thus, the war would have continued through the winter, killing roughly 5 million people in a bloodbath scarcely equalled in history. Many Japanese would have died from hunger, disease, and cold.

The psychological effect of H & N on the Japanese military was that they had been defeated at their own game; their own game being building nukes. Now, do you think the Japanese cared about civilian populations? Hint: The Rape of Nanking.

No doubt many scenarios were discussed by the Americans. But the two chosen were military targets, not civilian targets.