Noise before Mass

[Ockham]

The clamshell design has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Vatican II. Vatican II never called for any changes to Church design, placement of the choir, or anything like that. It didn’t even ask for the altar to be turned around, nor for the altar rails to be taken out.

Good point. I often make the mistake of applying all modernist influences on V2. However, it is the focal point of all the breaks with tradition. V2 itself may not have called for clamshell designs, but the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ interpreted the ambiguity left behind as such. Clamshell churches, venacular, clown masses, etc, all happened after the age of aquarius council.

The role of the choir at Mass is to assist in the worship. When the choir becomes more of a performer than participant the focus leaves the Holy Sacrifice and is misdirected onto individuals. Any discussion amongst the choir should not take away the reverence deserved nor the courtesy due fellow parishioners.

Quite frankly, there is no place for chaos before Mass. The faithful observer has the duty to report liturgical or clerical abuses. A return to our traditional heritage would be a good step towards renewing our Church and restoring her grandeur.

 

[Katie1723]

I like going to church to get in some extra prayers. I like sitting there in what should be “quiet” and just being able to pray without hearing about Aunt Bertha’s hemorrhoids, or “yeah, I’m in church. I’ll call you in a few”, or " Yoo who…Martha…we’re over here". I like low keyed organ music. But the yakking has to go.

Kathy

 

[Sarabande]

Why do the cantor and organist need to reherse anyway? As long as both can read music the only variable should be tempo.

This is one of the reasons… many times the cantor is not a musician and need to have assistance on proper rhythm and tempi for the music. They learn it all by rote. The only time they can get this assistance is during a rehearsal with the organist, usually before mass because if they are volunteer cantors, that may be the only time they have available.

I’m usually of a position who would rather have no cantor at all than to hear one with a bad voice and no musicianship. That said, those cantors who aren’t musicians, but do have decent voices and can do a good job leading the congregation, after help from their organist/music director, are doing much giving what time they have to their parish and to help lead in musical prayer, especially in terms of the psalm.

If a cantor is a musician, it is true that they usually don’t have to “rehearse”. In my experience, we usually discuss what we will do. But there are times, when you actually do have to hear a couple measures of the music or if there is a difficult/tricky section of the music that needs to actually be sung/played so as not to throw each other off (especially if the organ is in the loft all the way in the back and the cantor is all the way in the front). The rehearsal is usually done before most people come into the church, but sometimes, it isn’t, so the it is done quietly in order for it not to disrupt anyone.

 

[Sarabande]

When I run a volunteer group, I run it like those organists. I do not have anything to do with any volunteer group that is not run that way.

A volunteer cantor not rehearsing in advance is not always a matter of volunteer-so-what-can-you-expect. Some volunteer cantors are not in the choir because they know they don’t have the time or schedule flexibility to make the level of commitment needed for a group to work well together. Some of these people do however try to offer their services when they can. Yes, there are some volunteers who think if it’s on a volunteer basis you can take what they feel like offering and be happy with it (and there are some who think they are committed and hard-working but don’t actually understand either concept). Some are doing a juggling act between offering what they can and meeting other commitments. I have been called on to cantor at short notice for both unpaid and paid events and sometimes it is extremely difficult to manage but it means a lot to the people who asked me or I know if I don’t do it they will go without. So as long as I know the repertoire is within my technical abilities, I re-organise everything else and skid in with as much time as I can manage, which might only be 30 minutes beforehand.

No rehearsal does not always mean a cantor isn’t taking things seriously. Sometimes it means the cantor has made a herculean effort to get there at all.

 

[Sarabande]

Cantors can step out to their cars and do vocal warm-ups. They can stand outside and do vocal warm-ups. They can do vocal warm-ups on the way to Mass, etc etc.

I have never heard any cantors ever warming up right before mass in the church - myself included. I do the same as you - warm up at home, then in the car ride down and then sometimes look at the music in the basement of the church. Cantors who are musicians (and even some who aren’t musicians) are usually always prepared beforehand. We know our music and can sometimes sight-read or have to learn a new piece 15 minutes before mass if necessary - which is not unusual.

Cantors who aren’t musicians are not as fortunate, musically-speaking, as people like us. The type of singing they may do before the mass is actually trying to make sure that they have the right notes and the right rhythms in the music. The only time they may have to do this with the organist is before the mass. Some of them just need to learn that if it is close to the start of mass, to go over the music quietly - not with full voice. That is all which is needed.

 

[Sarabande]

As others have stated, why can’t the two go outside and go over the music or quietly discuss on the organ bench?

Discussing or going over the music quietly in the church works very well. Expecting a singer or any instrumentalist to warm up outside in freezing weather conditions isn’t the wisest thing to do for them.

Really, I think the biggest problem is when the church is treated as a social hour with incessant and unnecessary chatting, rather than people trying to be respectful and reverent when preparing for mass.

 

[SteveGC]

Really, I think the biggest problem is when the church is treated as a social hour with incessant and unnecessary chatting, rather than people trying to be respectful and reverent when preparing for mass.

Yes. And I often wonder where this came from. Is it that the Church is now home to more “social hour” evangelical converts than ever before, which - don’t get me wrong - is a beautiful thing. All should come home. But did they bring with them to the Mass the habitual meet-and-greet, chit-chatty behaviors that run rampant in most evangelical churches? And over time, this just became influential?

Are long-time Catholics more irreverent because of our cultural, worldly influences?

I suppose perhaps both of these things may be true. Again, I don’t mean to clump all evangelicals, nor all Catholics, together…I recall one poster on here was saddened that he/she came from an evangelical church and was shocked by the irreverence. And I certainly know many reverent Catholics. But overall, I wonder if this is where the problems are coming from.

Architecturally, I know that most traditional Catholic churches are not set up for post-Mass socializing. In most I’ve been to, you have to walk a block or so away from the church to get to the social hall. I’m not a fan of the modern architecture of Catholic churches, but one strength they have is the proximity of the sanctuary to a separate social area - it’s all part of the same building. Of course, it also never fails, when I attend Mass at one of these churches, that people STILL don’t get out of the sanctuary, walk 20 yards to the next room over, and chit-chat there!

God Bless

 

[Sarabande]

Yes. And I often wonder where this came from. Is it that the Church is now home to more “social hour” evangelical converts than ever before, which - don’t get me wrong - is a beautiful thing. All should come home. But did they bring with them to the Mass the habitual meet-and-greet, chit-chatty behaviors that run rampant in most evangelical churches? And over time, this just became influential?

Are long-time Catholics more irreverent because of our cultural, worldly influences?

I suppose perhaps both of these things may be true. Again, I don’t mean to clump all evangelicals, nor all Catholics, together…I recall one poster on here was saddened that he/she came from an evangelical church and was shocked by the irreverence. And I certainly know many reverent Catholics. But overall, I wonder if this is where the problems are coming from.

Architecturally, I know that most traditional Catholic churches are not set up for post-Mass socializing. In most I’ve been too, you have to walk a block or so away from the church to get to the social hall. I’m not a fan of the modern architecture of Catholic churches, but one strength they have is the proximity of the sanctuary to a separate social area - it’s all part of the same building. Of course, it also never fails, when I attend Mass at one of these churches, that people STILL don’t get out of the sanctuary, walk 20 yards to the next room over, and chit-chat there!

God Bless

Actually, in some ways I think it has more to do more with society in general rather than a Catholic vs. Evangelical Protestant phenomenon. For good AND ill, we’ve become a society that is much more relaxed and informal in almost everything we do. There is a blurring of lines of what is proper decorum and mannerly. Just look at how things are done within all aspects of life today. This has spilled into the way we worship and pray. Some people wanted to bring this informality into church and at some parishes, it has really caught on.

 

[Sarabande]

I think another problem which lends to this kind of “social hour” situation is that sometimes there is no one at the head leading the way and the example to make it a more prayerful place.

If anyone has ever worked with youngsters, they will know that it can take one or two kids to lead the entire class into “chaos”. If the head (the teacher or leader) isn’t there to guide the way and nip it in the bud, that class is in trouble. The same with adults. Get a few people to start the unnecessary chattering in the church and if it doesn’t stop, others will think it’s ok. It creates an environment of “Well, no one is saying anything about it, so it must be ok.” Of course, you don’t “discipline” them, but they can be led by example by the priests, greeters and other ministers who are involved at the church. Sometimes, they just need a reminder of where they are. My family, for instance, can be very jocular and loquacious. There were a couple times after mass, when I came to meet them where they were rather loud and I had to give my parents a look and tell them quietly that we were still in church or to look behind them and see that there were people trying to pray. Now, they make sure to leave the church before they start talking. A couple of times, when something started, now my dad will be like, “People are trying to pray. Let’s take it outside,” and will usher my family out. I now don’t have to be the child “admonishing” the parents and grandparents. haha! But that was all it took. One or two times to remind them where they were.

I think just a little tweak before mass, during the homily, after mass or in the bulletin or even people within their own family/friend circles can make a bit of difference in regards to reverence.

 

[Cat]

I believe that the children in the Confirmation class should be TOLD before class ends that when they enter the church they are not going to a social event and to KEEP QUIET. Why is that so difficult to do?

It is not only children though who chat when they come to Mass. In one church I used to attend for the Saturday Vigil Mass several elderly couples (they do the collection) would walk back and forth in front of the altar (it was a chapel), chat with each other, etc. I stopped going to that church. They thought they were so important, even more so than the Blessed Sacrament.

On thing I will never understand are posters on this Forum who really dislike V2. Whenever there is a case of irreverence, chatting at Mass, etc. V2 is always given as the reason.

I grew up before V2 and we had people who would come to Mass and chat with each other; their children would misbehave; etc. The churches were not completely silent, unfortunately. This irreverence has nothing to do with V2, it has to do with the state of our society. It is a ME-FIRST attitude.

Please do not blame everything that goes on at Mass today on Vatican II.:nope:

And Cat, why is the priest contributing to the confusion and noise before Mass by chatting with the choir? He should be doing his own preparing.

I agree with Wintersdemise and the observation that some people come to Mass simply to socialize with people they know. Why are they looking around the church when they should be praying?

My parish gives tours because it is an historical church and I really dislike the people walking around and chatting and ignoring the Blessed Sacrament (many are tourists and not Catholic) - to many this is just an interesting building.

I have started going to a Sunday evening Mass because the church is so quiet one could hear a pin drop. I go in about a half hour before Mass begins and I can say the Office, read a bit of the Bible, say a Rosary, etc.

I feel bad about not attending the Sunday morning Mass where our Rector celebrates a beautiful Mass, and I don’t know which is more important, an elegant Mass or a prayful and quiet church.

The evening Mass is less elegant, but it is still the Mass.

Please read my post again. I did NOT say anything about a choir. There was no choir. I did not say anything about Father “chatting with us.” There was no chatting. The cantor and I were not “chatting.” Father was not contributing the noise and confusion of the Mass, he was explaing to me (the pianist) and the cantor what the order of the Mass would be with the additional sacramental of the Distribution of Blessed Ashes. He said one or two sentences, that’s all. No “chatting.”

I’m quite upset about your accusation of our priest. He is fantastic, and worked for many years in Chicago to start Perpetual Adoration Chapels in parishes. He is the best.

Here is the paragraph that you are questioning:

Forgive me and the cantor for practicing yesterday. I got off work at 3:30, drove to a school to rehearse with a group of teenagers who are in a contest in a few weeks, then I drove over the church and made it by 4:45 for a 5:30Mass. The cantor is someone that I have only played for once, so we don’t know each other’s “mannerisms.” She didn’t know the Psalm or the Lenten Mass parts, so we had to practice them. I didn’t know two of the hymns, and we decided to change them to something more familiar to the congregation (with the priest’s permission). **The order of the liturgy was slightly different due to the Distribution of Blessed Ashes, and Father walked over to explain things to us. **

 

[CTA1967]

Discussing or going over the music quietly in the church works very well. Expecting a singer or any instrumentalist to warm up outside in freezing weather conditions isn’t the wisest thing to do for them.

Only if you want my clarinet to split in half.

 

[PJM]

I went to an Ash Wednesday service last night for the first time in about 5 years. I was hoping for a quiet, prayerful moment before things got started, at least that is what I remember at the church I used to attend in NC. It was not going to happen. As usual, the choir/cantors were still rehearing, the people that where already there were chit chatting (this is about 10 min. before Mass), then a group of about 25 teenagers came in and they talked and laughed an carried on for the rest of the time. I thought I was in a school assembly. It was very distracting. Come to find out that they were the confirmation class and they had just got done having a class before Mass. Didn’t they know to be quiet when they entered the sanctuary or at least keep their voices down. Aren’t they taught this? Shouldn’t the teacher or some other adult in authority there said something? I don’t know it just seemed very impolite and irreverent to me. Or maybe I am just expecting too much. Sorry for my ranting.

Dear God save us from ourselves!**

**Noise B4 Holy Mass is:

Sacriligeous

a Scaldal

All most ALWAYS UNNECESSARY

A sign of extremely poor Catechesis

A sign of fear to disipline by pastors

Evidence that people do NOT realize that they are in the Presence of the God that made them!**

How very sad, what do strangers think? Is it any wonder that only “16% of professed Catholics attend Sunday / Holyday Mass, and only 10% go to Confession even once a year.”

Can their be any doubt why Hell is MUCH larger than heaven! **

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I had the exact opposite experience on Ash Wednesday. I went to the 12:10 pm service. I came early, and there was an out-loud prayer session going on, with prayers like Hail Holy Queen, St. Michael, Hail Mary. It was really beautiful.

 

[Sarabande]

Only if you want my clarinet to split in half.

 

[Kielbasi]

Chatting in church is a bit of an American custom that a lot of Catholics have adopted from observing evangelicals.

Catholics aren’t hermetically sealed from the rest of society, so some “leakage” seems almost inevitable.

Sort of like “latinizations” in the Greek Catholic churches, where our Eastern friends are influenced to have rosary devotions and statues in church by the influence of the more numerous Latin Rite folk around.

In this case, its the habits and devotions of evangelicals who have a great influence on all American culture.

 

[Ockham]

There is chatting in the pews of Catholic churches outside the U.S.A.

 

[Sugabee43]

As a former “high church” Episcopalian, I can tell you that if people talked before, during, or after Holy Communion (i.e., Mass), there were many looks and frowns directed at them. You were never encouraged to create any type of noise in the sanctuary at all. And, yes, at the many parishes in which I attended, there was always a tabernacle with the Blessed Sacrament inside. I think the Catholic community could take a lesson from those Episcopal churches and have more reverence and awe. I read somewhere a long time ago an article that talked of a Catholic explaining to an Orthodox Jewish friend the meaning of the tabernacle and the Real Presence. The Jewish friend concluded the conversation with the comment that if he were Catholic and truly believed that his Lord were housed in the tabernacle, not only would he be reverent every time he entered the sanctuary, but he would crawl upon his belly in reverence. Well said, IMHO.

 

[jmcrae]

Well, I know of one case where the meet-and-greet thing is directly influenced by the fact that the Baptists do it. It’s being deliberately organized by a member of the Parish Council whose wife is Baptist, and he is trying to get her to attend that parish. He says getting people to start chatting before Mass will be a way of enticing her to come.

I have made my opinion known.

 

[Sarabande]

Well, I know of one case where the meet-and-greet thing is directly influenced by the fact that the Baptists do it. It’s being deliberately organized by a member of the Parish Council whose wife is Baptist, and he is trying to get her to attend that parish. He says getting people to start chatting before Mass will be a way of enticing her to come.

I have made my opinion known.

There was a parish I was part of where the new pastor was really into this meet-and-greet thing and having a lot of commotion during mass. There was an older couple, I guess in their 60s at the time, and I remember during one of the first times the pastor had everyone do this, the wife was really excited and happy about this. While this commotion was happening, she was saying to me and everyone around her how great it was that we were doing things like the Baptists. I was like, “What?”

It was one of the first times I experienced this meet-and-greet things and it really turned me off as a young woman in my mid-twenties. I had never experienced anything so loud and focused on each other rather than on God. And here I was, trying to teach my children’s choir about reverence in the church at mass and even when there was no mass going on. I felt like what good did it do when the adults and parents and the pastor encouraged this kind of commotion at mass. Some “kid” like me wouldn’t be listened to. And that’s how I was treated. I was one of the youngest adults there, so the older adults just treated me like I didn’t know any better. Oh, well, I left that parish (it wasn’t my parish anyway). I couldn’t stay in a place that didn’t show much reverence during the mass.

 

[Methodi]

Was it quiet on Calvary before they drove the nails into Jesus’s hands and feet?

Forgive me and the cantor for practicing yesterday. I got off work at 3:30, drove to a school to rehearse with a group of teenagers who are in a contest in a few weeks, then I drove over the church and made it by 4:45 for a 5:30Mass. The cantor is someone that I have only played for once, so we don’t know each other’s “mannerisms.” She didn’t know the Psalm or the Lenten Mass parts, so we had to practice them. I didn’t know two of the hymns, and we decided to change them to something more familiar to the congregation (with the priest’s permission). The order of the liturgy was slightly different due to the Distribution of Blessed Ashes, and Father walked over to explain things to us.

What were we supposed to do? Write notes to each other instead of “chatting?”

What exactly would YOU tell us to do? Just “wing it?” Never. As it was, BOTH of us messed up hymns, and the priest and the altar boy got their wires crossed at one point.

You know, Mass doesn’t just materialize out of the spiritual world and float into earthly existence like some kind of apparition. It involves REAL flesh and blood people and real earthly activities.

The instrumentalist and cantor don’t just know all the songs from the moment of earth’s creation. People need to have written down schedules and need to study and review what is written down and sometimes make changes. Someone has to turn on the heat, adjust the fans, find out what that clacking noise is down in the boiler room, turn on the lights, test out the sound system, fix the sound system when it squeals, etc.

We’re human beings and we make noise just by living and moving. During the Mass last night, when I set my book down, I accidentally crashed my arm into the keys and the congregation got treated to a dissonant chordal sequence. Sorry about that, but that’s what clumsy humans do.

If all of us who are involved with presenting you with a Mass didn’t prepare, you would have a very sorry Mass. It doesn’t just happen. It doesn’t just materialize. The musicians have lives outside of Mass and must often wait until the last minute to rehearse.

Again, I ask you and all the rest of us to remember that Golgotha was NOT a quiet place, and yet our Lord prayed.

I’m sorry to be so crabby and grouchy, but honestly, I am having a very hard time with Christians who can’t tolerate anything except their way. Can’t we all just put up with each other and accept all our human limitations? We’ll die soon enough, won’t we, and then we’ll have the peace of heaven to hopefully look forward to.

I thoroughly agree with everything you have written, why are catholics so judgmental , they pay attention to trivial things,& Your right , it has to be their way