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GordonP
Guest
Just curious, but do you have a source for that? I can’t find one.
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Allie1
Guest
Yes, these people are Catholic by their baptism. I think that what needs to be considered is an understanding that for even Catholics, their faith may need a coversion. And I actually think that even for them it is a good thing that they call themselves Catholic. I think that it actually shows hope in their conversion, that they still identify their home as being the Catholic church. I think that it is better for them to have one foot in the church than both feet out.I know quite a few “Catholics” who disbelieve much of our body of faith, but who proclaim themselves to the world as being Catholic. Personally and as a matter of logic, I see them as Non-Catholic, but at the same time I don’t mean to judge them. I mean. . . I can identify as a lion or a tiger, but that doesn’t make me feline. . . instead it would seem to make me delusional
Many cradle Catholics need conversion. In my own life I was fervent Catholic child/teenager. Fell away from the church in my twenties. Had a conversion in my thirties and sought out deeper understanding of my faith.
Before my conversion, I still identified myself as a Catholic. I still fully believed in Jesus’ real presence, I think that it is an gift from God that I never doubted his presence in the Eucharist. But in all other things in faith I had doubts and believed in things contrary to the faith.
I actually believe that it would have been deleterious to my conversion, If the members of the church thought of me, a baptized/confirmed Catholic, as no longer a member of the church.
Kind of like the no true scotsman. It would have been nice if the ferver of my Catholic faith of my youth had carried me into my twenties.
But I was member of the church, in need of conversion. Still identifying myself as a Catholic, but needing conversion.
Which is how I see Catholics like your friend Rico. Heis a Catholic by rights of his baptism, in need of conversion.
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Lara
Guest
I didn’t say I wouldn’t do business with a Protestant or help him if he were ill, etc. I said be a partner in business or marry. There’s nothing un-Catholic about recognizing how a person’s beliefs will affect their life decisions. If you don’t think action follows thought, it will be difficult to convince you.
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orfeo1
Guest
Jbrady
I find it unfortunate and disappointing that you put forth many of your comments & observations in such an acerbic, condescending, arrogant, dismissive, hostile, and offensive tone. Your knowledge seems deep, but your charity comes across somewhere between shallow & non-existent. In fact, I had to wonder if maybe you were merely being an Internet “troll”. Possibly, you realized this yourself, and that may be the reason why you edited/deleted some of your postings.
In any case, I would find it much easier to learn from you if you could try to be a little nicer. I made this post in order to draw additional (name removed by moderator)ut to help me assess the topic at hand. My purpose was not to shame Rico, nor to be a “self-appointed Grand Inquisitor sitting in God’s judgment seat” (your words - recently edited/deleted by you).
Normally, I don’t respond at length to Internet trolls, so I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt by posting this response to you. I hope you will continue to enrich this thread with your knowledge, and not distract it with your anger.
I find it unfortunate and disappointing that you put forth many of your comments & observations in such an acerbic, condescending, arrogant, dismissive, hostile, and offensive tone. Your knowledge seems deep, but your charity comes across somewhere between shallow & non-existent. In fact, I had to wonder if maybe you were merely being an Internet “troll”. Possibly, you realized this yourself, and that may be the reason why you edited/deleted some of your postings.
In any case, I would find it much easier to learn from you if you could try to be a little nicer. I made this post in order to draw additional (name removed by moderator)ut to help me assess the topic at hand. My purpose was not to shame Rico, nor to be a “self-appointed Grand Inquisitor sitting in God’s judgment seat” (your words - recently edited/deleted by you).
Normally, I don’t respond at length to Internet trolls, so I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt by posting this response to you. I hope you will continue to enrich this thread with your knowledge, and not distract it with your anger.
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orfeo1
Guest
Thank you to all who have contributed here.
I must say, I am learning and growing through this thread, and I am truly grateful to each and every one of you for sharing your knowledge and insights.
I must say, I am learning and growing through this thread, and I am truly grateful to each and every one of you for sharing your knowledge and insights.
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SeekSalvation
Guest
Actually my friend, Rico does in fact believe in Eternity. He just believes his eternity will be nonexistent. Rico lacks faith because he places his own Will, his own intellect ahead of God’s Will. Sadly, in today’s modern materialistic world many believe they don’t need God, and nothing you can say or do will change that reality. Man will never be able to create ‘Matter’, or be able to create a new ‘Element’, or even create a Human Being (sure they can mix & merge cells together, but not create). Faith exist on the outer most part of man’s intellect, but comes from the greatest gift God ever gave to man, Eternal Love. Immorality is rampant in today’s world, perhaps the worst it’s been in 4 thousand years. Man is now making laws that defy God’s Laws which make’s one wonder how much longer God will tolerate this immorality? We Catholics must do what Christ asked us to do; pray, fast, and repent. Never lose your Eternal Faith over others; never lose your Hope, always be Charitable. Last, always realize God doesn’t send anyone to hell…we chose Heaven or Hell for ourselves. God bless and pray for Rico.eternity
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I will say some extra prayers for your relative Rico. I hope the Holy Spirit will soften his heart.
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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
The terms lapsed Catholic or non-practicing Catholic serve the same purpose and are theologically correct.So then we must acknowledge that Jack Chick was a Catholic? After all, he was validly baptised. What about Hitler? He was Catholic as well?
No. Charity demands correction, most especially of the conceit that one can remake the idea of “being Catholic”
Tis_Bearself
Patron
The very traditional Bishop Paprocki, who does not shy away from barring people from the sacraments, states the current view of the Church, which is that excommunicated people are still Catholics who have been subjected to a medicinal penalty intended to get them to repent and return to full Communion.
Here’s a writing by Edward Peters, whom Paprocki cites with approval:
Properly understood in this way as a medicinal penalty, excommunication certainly does not expel the person from the Catholic Church, but simply forbids the excommunicated person from engaging in certain activities in the life of the church until the offender reforms and ceases from the offense. Once this happens, the person is to be restored to the fullness of participation in the life of the church.
Here’s a writing by Edward Peters, whom Paprocki cites with approval:
It would appear you’re not even allowed to formally defect from the Church any more. Once you’re baptized, then the most that can happen to you is excommunication, which doesn’t make you cease being a Catholic.In short, while there are some ways for a Catholic to cease juridically being a Catholic (e.g., “defection” from the Church, a topic too far afield from ours), excommunication is not such a way. Excommunicated Catholics are still Catholic. Bad Catholics, sure; but Catholics.
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Useless
Guest
Edit: Nevermind, question was already asked and discussed.
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orfeo1
Guest
To be clear, I never said that I “declare” Rico or anyone else to be Non-Catholic.
I only said that I personally see “Catholics” who disbelieve much of our body of faith, but who proclaim themselves to the world as being Catholic as Non-Catholic.
The issue at hand for me is this: The Catholic Church & Catholicism in general are under attack. A serious part of that attack is waged through disinformation & propaganda aimed at soiling Her image in the world. Many people who might otherwise be open to conversion are dissuaded by a false narrative. Often they have been taught to see Her as evil, hypocritical, and totally corrupt. They lose out on the awesome benefits of becoming Catholic because of that false narrative. This is a very sad effect, which is reinforced (in my opinion), and sometimes even promoted by persons like my Rico.
For example, even if I were an atheist, I would believe that life begins at conception, and I would be opposed to those who condone abortion. If the only “Catholics” I knew were like Rico, Nancy Pelosi, Joseph Biden, etc., I would never associate myself with, much less consider joining, the Catholic faith. When I was a child, nuns, priests, and all religious were treated with reverence & respect. Many young girls and boys of my generation aspired to become nuns and priests, and their aspirations were admired and encouraged by most people. Today we almost never hear anything good about the Catholic Church or religious life in general. Young persons are told they would be “throwing their lives away” by becoming nuns and priests. The ranks of lay faithful are dwindling, and we truly have a desperate shortage of both nuns and priests. People who give a false impression of Catholicism (not only inauthentic “Catholics”, but especially disgraced priests) cause grave harm, not only to the Church as an institution, but especially to many multitudes of souls who might otherwise have been saved.
The fact is that Catholicism is beautiful, true, and good. It is heartbreaking that so many have been taught otherwise. . .
I only said that I personally see “Catholics” who disbelieve much of our body of faith, but who proclaim themselves to the world as being Catholic as Non-Catholic.
The issue at hand for me is this: The Catholic Church & Catholicism in general are under attack. A serious part of that attack is waged through disinformation & propaganda aimed at soiling Her image in the world. Many people who might otherwise be open to conversion are dissuaded by a false narrative. Often they have been taught to see Her as evil, hypocritical, and totally corrupt. They lose out on the awesome benefits of becoming Catholic because of that false narrative. This is a very sad effect, which is reinforced (in my opinion), and sometimes even promoted by persons like my Rico.
For example, even if I were an atheist, I would believe that life begins at conception, and I would be opposed to those who condone abortion. If the only “Catholics” I knew were like Rico, Nancy Pelosi, Joseph Biden, etc., I would never associate myself with, much less consider joining, the Catholic faith. When I was a child, nuns, priests, and all religious were treated with reverence & respect. Many young girls and boys of my generation aspired to become nuns and priests, and their aspirations were admired and encouraged by most people. Today we almost never hear anything good about the Catholic Church or religious life in general. Young persons are told they would be “throwing their lives away” by becoming nuns and priests. The ranks of lay faithful are dwindling, and we truly have a desperate shortage of both nuns and priests. People who give a false impression of Catholicism (not only inauthentic “Catholics”, but especially disgraced priests) cause grave harm, not only to the Church as an institution, but especially to many multitudes of souls who might otherwise have been saved.
The fact is that Catholicism is beautiful, true, and good. It is heartbreaking that so many have been taught otherwise. . .
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Allie1
Guest
I would like to point out that people like Rico, Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden. Are not new phenomena. The Church, historically, is filled with examples of Catholics behaving badly. Sorry, to say but its true.Even if I were an atheist, I would believe that life begins at conception, and I would be opposed to those who condone abortion. If the only “Catholics” I knew were like Rico, Nancy Pelosi, Joseph Biden, etc., I would never associate myself with, much less consider joining, the Catholic faith.
Im paraphrasing, but some bishop in the 19th century said something “Priests have been attempting to destroy the church for 2000 years but haven’t succeeded yet”
This may be a bad paraphrasing, I’ll try to research more who said it.
Non Catholics do need conversion. They need our prayers.
AND
Catholics need conversion. Including Rico, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden. They are part of our flock. They are Catholic. They need our prayers, for conversion from their sins.
I understand it is aggravating for badly behaving Catholics to be known publicly. But they need conversion also
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Pattylt
Guest
I know this isn’t what you really mean but to my outsider ears, this sounds like, we only want you if you’ll be a perfect Catholic. Others need not apply.
I understand that what you are hoping for is for many Catholics to be better ones but often I get the impression that many Catholics want the bad ones to just go away so we can have a perfect Church.
Please, I don’t mean to be offensive…it just sometimes comes out like that! :hugs:
I understand that what you are hoping for is for many Catholics to be better ones but often I get the impression that many Catholics want the bad ones to just go away so we can have a perfect Church.
Please, I don’t mean to be offensive…it just sometimes comes out like that! :hugs:
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Dan_Defender
Guest
He is an atheist then. Hope for eternal life is the beginning and end of our faith.Rico strongly believes that earthly death is final
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Dan_Defender
Guest
‘Knowledge puffs up, but charity builds up.’ - 1 Cor 8:1Your knowledge seems deep, but your charity comes across somewhere between shallow & non-existent.
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Dovekin
Guest
There is only one baptism. Catholic baptisms, Presbyterian baptisms, Orthodox baptisms are all the same baptism.I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:
one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
St Paul. Ephesians 4: 1-5
Every baptism makes one a member of the one Church. As Catholics, we believe that one Church subsists in the Catholic Church. Every baptism is a Catholic baptism in that sense. It is the ritual that makes one a Catholic.
There is another way of using the term Catholic, as a purely sectarian term. There are Catholics, Baptists, Orthodox etc. Each is distinct, with characteristics distinct to each. Baptists are Baptists because they belong to a,b,c. Orthodox are Orthodox because they believe a,d,e. Catholics are Catholics because they were baptized. It is unusual to treat the Catholic Church as a confessional church, held together by agreement on tenets rather than by sacraments.
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Allie1
Guest
I often get this impression from Catholics as well. In my opinion, I view my fellow Catholics who are in grave sin like Rico, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden as being souls who are in great need of the church. I actually want them in church more.I know this isn’t what you really mean but to my outsider ears, this sounds like, we only want you if you’ll be a perfect Catholic. Others need not apply.
I understand that what you are hoping for is for many Catholics to be better ones but often I get the impression that many Catholics want the bad ones to just go away so we can have a perfect Church.
Please, I don’t mean to be offensive…it just sometimes comes out like that
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c4csp
Guest
We are all sinners who need God’s mercy and grace. Catholics who do not practice or reject teaching and claim to be Catholic are doing a lot of harm. Their objections and relativism require sharp rebukes because they are leading faithful Catholics away.
I’ve seen it numerous times, good faithful Catholics doing their best to live and practice their faith but are influenced by those modernist Catholics that believe in abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc. It makes these faithful Catholics question things and pulls them away. They say things like, “well there are many Catholics who do not believe that.” Or “majority of Catholics use contraception.” Catholics that support abortion even have a website called, Catholics for Choice. It really distorts truth.
In Revelation 3, Jesus says, " I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. 16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
I’ve seen it numerous times, good faithful Catholics doing their best to live and practice their faith but are influenced by those modernist Catholics that believe in abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc. It makes these faithful Catholics question things and pulls them away. They say things like, “well there are many Catholics who do not believe that.” Or “majority of Catholics use contraception.” Catholics that support abortion even have a website called, Catholics for Choice. It really distorts truth.
In Revelation 3, Jesus says, " I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. 16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
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Allie1
Guest
These are Catholic souls who we still have hope for their repentance and redemption. I will argue that the best hope for their conversion is by more masses, more rosaries, more hours of adoration, more fasting. More outreach. Not less.
Luke 15: 3-7
Then Jesus told them this parable: “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Even these Catholics in grave sin, are still Jesus’ sheep.
Luke 15: 3-7
Then Jesus told them this parable: “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Even these Catholics in grave sin, are still Jesus’ sheep.
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c4csp
Guest
I say AMEN to everything here.These are Catholic souls who we still have hope for their repentance and redemption. I will argue that the best hope for their conversion is by more masses, more rosaries, more hours of adoration, more fasting. More outreach. Not less.
Luke 15: 3-7
Then Jesus told them this parable: “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Even these Catholics in grave sin, are still Jesus’ sheep.
I am not sure how it relates to what I said but maybe you are just offering your comment.
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