Non-Believers who Identify as Catholic, and their effect

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Unfortunately nowadays the word “Catholic” can be applied to anyone who’s been baptized Catholic, which is the formal price of admission after all. IOW, the price of admission no longer includes one’s personal faith in the truths proposed by the Church. While infant baptism is one reason for this “problem”, back in the day one was expected to affirm their baptismal vows at some point after reaching the age of reason by personally agreeing with and accepting Church teachings-or not and so refusing to live as and consider themselves to be Catholic. Either way something tells me Rico would not have been a good candidate for martyrdom in the early persecuted Church, brand names notwithstanding.
 
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Interesting that you (PattyIt & Allie1) guys get the impression that “to my outsider ears, this sounds like, we only want you if you’ll be a perfect Catholic. Others need not apply”.

I don’t take any offense whatsoever PattyIt. But in my 60+ years of being Catholic, 12 years of Catholic school, and about 20 years of being active in the Knights of Columbus, I have never encountered that type of attitude. Surely, it must be I who is somehow giving that impression, and I sincerely apologize for that! Most “practicing” Catholics I have ever known are intensely aware of their own shortcomings, and I have never met one who considers themselves especially “good” (much less perfect); nor have I ever known any who require perfection from anyone else. In any case, I can assure you that would be an extremely “Un-Catholic” position to take.

In fact, in every Sunday Mass we fervently all proclaim aloud the following prayer:
I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, (Striking breast) through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault. . ."

We are all sinners, and we LOVE all sinners. We want to help, not judge. I’m deeply sorry if I have spoken poorly and conveyed the wrong impression!
 
orfeo1 said:
We want to help, not judge. I’m deeply sorry if I have spoken poorly and conveyed the wrong impression!
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I understand this and in my face to face interactions, I’ve never gotten this impression. Here though, it’s often different…and only from a few that are constantly defining who’s Catholic enough and the desire for the church to become more pure.

I’ll use Biden as an example. I know his pro choice position is anathema to the church. I understand fully well why Catholics would be distressed over it. But, I do not understand those that seem to want him out of the Church. Please, I’m not saying this is you!

It’s just hard to separate those that want lapsed Catholics or Catholics that aren’t 100% in line with the church to continue to come to Mass, identify as Catholic and hope they see the errors of their ways from those that would prefer they not call themselves Catholic and stay away UNTIL they see the errors of their ways. I would think all Catholics would want them in rather than out. I was surprised at hearing some Catholics seem to be wanting a perfect church and not have to put up with all these lapsed or fallen Catholics! If that’s not what some are saying, then I’m just not reading them correctly…and that’s a distinct possibility!
 
Catholic by baptism only. We are all sinners but the Church is sinless because Jesus was sinless. Everyone can’t be saints. I wish I had a better answer because it makes us look terrible.
 
Pattylt said:
I’ll use Biden as an example. I know his pro choice position is anathema to the church. I understand fully well why Catholics would be distressed over it. But, I do not understand those that seem to want him out of the Church.
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It’s a different situation with him. He is openly going against the Church’s teachings on both abortion and gay marriage - he civilly married two gay couples himself when he was VP. He’s also been denied Holy Communion by at least 2 bishops. But he advertises himself as a Catholic and mentions it in his campaign ads, one of which prominently features a Catholic cathedral and another of which features a picture of a priest. He is trying to use his Catholicism to his own advantage while not following the teachings. That’s a step beyond simply being a sinner.
 
So I have to ask…what would you prefer he do until he sees the error of his ways? Not identify as Catholic? Not attend Mass? I know you want him to change but until he does, what are your preferences?
 
Pattylt said:
So I have to ask…what would you prefer he do until he sees the error of his ways? Not identify as Catholic? Not attend Mass? I know you want him to change but until he does, what are your preferences?
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I often wonder this too. I would prefer to see him excommunicated. As a corrective measure.
However, just to clear… excommunication cuts Catholics off from the sacraments except for the sacrament of reconciliation. Even excommunicated Catholics are still bound to attend mass Every Sunday and Every Holy Day of Obligation. Catholics in serious grave sins, even those who are excommunicated, can’t use the depravity of their sins as an excuse to miss mass. Missing mass would be compounding more grave sin onto them.

I know that you didn’t ask me. Just my 2 cents.
 
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Allie1 said:
I know that you didn’t ask me. Just my 2 cents.
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No, I’d like to know what all your opinions are on this.

Also, let’s say it’s NOT a public figure, just Joe Average. Would you still prefer excommunication? Any other solutions?
 
Pattylt said:
Also, let’s say it’s NOT a public figure, just Joe Average. Would you still prefer excommunication? Any other solutions?
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Regular Catholic Joe Schmoe, who goes around publicly endorsing abortions, and goes around marrying gay couples.

If after ignoring 2 priests about correcting their actions, and continuing to receive communion. And acting like everything is A Ok, Then yes.

One off side comment though…before my conversion I was also told by 2 priests that I couldn’t receive communion. So I didn’t.

So he and I have that in common, although when I was told not to receive communion. I stopped
 
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I simply don’t want him to promote himself on the basis of being Catholic unless he is truly Catholic, in the sense of upholding Catholic principles to a reasonable degree. That means don’t run on a pro-choice plank, at least not as the primary candidate (if he were running as VP I might think his faith might be a positive influence on the Presidential candidate) and don’t go marrying gay people yourself, or for that matter don’t marry ANY couple yourself because it’s not a required part of the job description and such people have a boatload of other options and it gets one out of all the sticky decisions about what if they’re Catholic and should be married by a priest, or what if they’ve been married before, etc.

If he’s not willing to do these things, which I think are pretty small asks, then he should not publicly promote his so-called Catholicism as part of his campaign. Regarding his personal sins and doubts etc he can discuss those with his own pastor who is about the same age as himself and has probably known him for decades at this point, and I don’t have to be part of that.
 
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Biden actually does seem to still personally believe in most of the teachings of the Church.
He goes to Mass. The press laid in wait and caught him visiting his church a few weeks back, where his first wife and his two deceased children are also buried in the graveyard behind the church. They weren’t allowed beyond the church parking lot and it wasn’t a scheduled photo op but I think they were all there because the guy has rarely come out of his house for months (he lives 5 minutes from church).

He is trying to have it both ways and at some point you just can’t anymore.
I feel bad for him because he’s an old man and he’s been through a lot, but I agree with you that it’s intellectually dishonest.
 
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I was actually just happy to see him at church. I keep praying he will grow stronger in his faith.

My dad was a huge Biden fan back in the day but my dad died in 1990 so never had to really confront the “pro-choice” Biden.
 
Pattylt said:
It’s just hard to separate those that want lapsed Catholics or Catholics that aren’t 100% in line with the church to continue to come to Mass, identify as Catholic and hope they see the errors of their ways from those that would prefer they not call themselves Catholic and stay away UNTIL they see the errors of their ways. I would think all Catholics would want them in rather than out. I was surprised at hearing some Catholics seem to be wanting a perfect church and not have to put up with all these lapsed or fallen Catholics! If that’s not what some are saying, then I’m just not reading them correctly…and that’s a distinct possibility!
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I think the issue is with the damage being done to the public perception of what Catholicism is all about, and the fact that it causes many people to preclude it from their lives based upon wrongful misconceptions.

Personally, I (and all Catholics I know) would love for ALL people, Catholic or not, moral or not, to come to Mass and open themselves to the awesomeness that is there. I don’t think any of us want anyone else to stay away. My view is:

If you call yourself Catholic, you should not rail publicly against Catholic values & Catholic doctrine, and sow discord among those who might otherwise be open to learning about it; and, you should especially NOT push, coerce, cajole, or encourage others to commit mortal sin just because you want votes, or because don’t want your wife/girlfriend to have your baby. It is gravely harmful.
 
There was an article in The Guardian today about the accusations of anti Catholicism regarding the questioning of the new Supreme Court pick.

I think this article is relevant on how many Catholics don’t see a problem with Catholics having views contrary to church teaching. Most folks here do see these liberal Catholics as a problem. It’s interesting that liberal Catholics DON’T see these issues as anti catholic, just people that don’t tow the full Catholic line yet are still Catholic…at least to themselves and maybe even the church they attend. I found it interesting and appropriate for this thread…

 
I think the article’s relevant on how the British media never misses a beat to bash religion, especially Catholicism. Given their track record on the matter, they can take their views and lump 'em.

(Yes, I know the author is from US…she’s also the author of a book called “The H-Spot” about feminism. 'Nuff said, I’m supposed to be practicing charity)
 
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Lara said:
A look at the history of Protestantism will show that Protestants basically protest against one or more tenets of the Church. That’s why we call them our separated brethren
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If I may interject, and seeing how we are slicing and dissecting what is “Catholic”, perhaps a better understanding of the term “Protestant” is in line somewhat.

When I was practicing Catholic I also generalized Protestants as “protesters” against CC. Only later (actually here on CAF, and as a “protestant” now) did I learn the history of the term .

The term was coined by those opposing reformers (the state and the church), in particular Luther and " followers" in “Germany”.

It was not protesting the CC but a decree at Speyer where state representatives took away the recently given freedom of a prince and his “domain” to freely excercise their faith per their convictions and conscience, which of course was “reformed”.

It was really protesting the taking away of religious freedom, which we take for granted now. And I think such freedom was equally shared by lack of such throughout church history. The term seperated brethren I think is a very recent admittance (by second vat?), but certainly a sign of cooling hostilities by hardliners.

Huss, Tyndake, Wycliffe I don’t think were known as protestants but heretics or reformers, depending on your taste. They certainly were at odds with their CC on a few tenets, but not sure protest was the word used back then.
 
But I can use the word “protest,” the meaning of which was clear. Thank you for the information, by the way.
 
It is a frequent etymological error, frequently corrected around here.
 
Its a tragic truth that where you see the Church… there Satan will lie within. Because he has no care for the souls already under his command.
 
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