Non- Catholic Christians: can you lose your salvation?

[Lenten_ashes]

I was trying to figure out how to turn this into a poll. I’m not seeing the option.

Anyway - even when i was Non Catholic, i never bought into OSAS or once saved always saved. I tried to believe…but I saw too many scriptures that contradict it.

What do you believe and why do you believe it? And if you could list your denominations that would be great. Interested in where folks stand on the topic and their background.

Thanks

 

[TULIPed]

In the Reformed tradition, there’s no such thing as “once saved always saved”. I never heard the phrase until I got on this board - and I’m a cradle Reformed Christian. The doctrine is called the “Perseverance of the Saints”. First, allow me to tell you what this doctrine does NOT say.

It doesn’t say that because you are a Christian you can do whatever you want, i.e. “sin so that grace abounds.” As true believers in Christ, we should see our lives being changed from the inside out as the Holy Spirit works in our lives. In short, we should see the fruit of the Spirit. If we don’t see that fruit, i.e. if we see ourselves taking advantage of the grace that God has so mercifully given to us in the form of his son, then we have to ask ourselves if the Holy Spirit is truly in our lives.

The fundamental point from which the doctrine of Perseverance emanates from is this - who does all the good and saving work in our lives? Catholics believe that humans cooperate with God in this work. Reformed Christians believe that God does all the work. If God is the prime - and only - mover in our salvation, and if He chooses us, than it would be impossible for us to “unchoose” Him. From Romans 8:

“28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Thus, the fundamental question for all of us is - am I actually chosen? How can I tell if I’m chosen? Do I see myself taking care of the “least of these”? Am I being kind? Am I always putting others ahead of myself? Am I “running the race with endurance?”

The Perseverance of the Saints - is thus a doctrine which at its core asks a question - the most important question any of us can ask - “Am I a true follower of Christ?”

 

[OddBird]

Beautifully explained, thank you.

That’s what my own Reformed church believes as well.

 

[TULIPed]

Thanks OddBird. Means a lot coming from a pro like you! Feel like I got an “A” on the test

 

[OddBird]

You’re making me blush !

 

[drac16]

I believe in perseverance of the saints because my church taught me it and because of 1 John 2:19. 1 John 2:19 seems to be saying that one who falls away from the faith was never saved to begin with. We don’t know who the elect are; it’s not stamped on my forehead or anyone else’s. One who is saved will necessarily produce good fruit because they have the Holy Spirit living in them. Hebrews 7:25 says that God is able to save to the uttermost, so He will transform you and cause you to obey His statutes.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus says that He will say to those who are lost “I never knew you”. He did not say “I once knew you” – He says “I never knew you”. So on Judgment Day, there will be two groups; those who were always saved and those who were always lost.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thanks everyone so far for replying.

Tulip’ed, that is a good description of the reformed position. All though those OSAS folks do exist and not just on the internet lol. I have encountered them and been lectured on the topic. They even go as far as telling you that you can’t possibly be saved unless you 100% believe as they do.

 

[MHawbaker]

Brethren in Christ here.

I’m a bit short on time right now, so I’m just going to copy/paste a quote from the section about Christian Assurance from my Denomination’s official web site:

"If we receive Jesus as Savior and remain in him, we are eternally secure, protected by God’s power. If we stray from the faith like the lost sheep, we have a defender before God the Father, Jesus the righteous (1 John 2:1), and a way back to full fellowship with God through repentance and confession (1 John 1:9). God in his grace will restore his children who have strayed (Luke 15:4-6).

While believers are eternally secure in Jesus the Christ, we can forfeit that security. God will not keep us against our will. From creation God has given us free choice (Gen. 2:16-17). We choose to respond in saving faith to God’s offer of salvation, and our life in Christ continues by choice. By receiving Jesus, we do not surrender the right to make subsequent choices. If a child of God chooses to abandon or renounce faith, God respects that choice (1 Tim. 4:1).

The Scriptures also speak of those who appear to have faith in Jesus and identify with his followers but never become true believers. Jesus at one point referred to them as wolves in sheep’s clothing (Matt. 7:15). He also spoke of those who say: “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?” The Lord’s reply is, “I never knew you” (Matt. 7:22-23). John speaks of antichrists who “went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. … their going showed that none of them belonged to us” (1 John 2:19). These sobering words add significance to Peter’s admonition: “be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure” (2 Pet. 1:10)."

https://bicus.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/assurance-believer.pdf

 

[Hume]

In the Reformed tradition, there’s no such thing as “once saved always saved”. I never heard the phrase until I got on this board - and I’m a cradle Reformed Christian. The doctrine is called the “Perseverance of the Saints”.

I was reformed from 18 until roughly 30. Was so excited about it that my parents (free will baptists) wouldn’t discuss religion with me. Even hung around a seminary where being reformed was really a cryptic requirement to graduation.

“Once saved always saved” doesn’t explain it 100%, no. But this does;
“Once save always saved, unless you backslide. Then you were never really saved in the first place.”

We just don’t like it when our credos are so simply and succinctly explained in so few words without heady references to the Westminster Confession and Calvin’s Commentaries and so on…

 

[Hume]

I was trying to figure out how to turn this into a poll. I’m not seeing the option.

Anyway - even when i was Non Catholic, i never bought into OSAS or once saved always saved. I tried to believe…but I saw too many scriptures that contradict it.

What do you believe and why do you believe it? And if you could list your denominations that would be great. Interested in where folks stand on the topic and their background.

Thanks

Barring those faiths more heavily influenced by the reformed theology of the 1500s (as above), most Christians world-wide hold something approximating the Catholic view on “salvation” insomuch that it is considered something not eternally secured upon initial obtainment.

If salvation is indeed a conceptual object unto itself, it can be “lost” per most non-Catholic Christians.

 

[rosejmj]

Isn’t it a bit like predestination? So what happens if you aren’t chosen? Why would God not choose someone? Doesn’t he want all to be saved? Also, wouldn’t it go against free will if we couldn’t “unchoose” him?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Tell you what, I don’t want to dig them all up. What I will do is post a link to a very interesting debate between Dr. James White and Trent Horn. You or anyone here can listen when you are cleaning the house or something. They cover almost all of them. And you can hear both sides or perspectives.

 

[ltwin]

What do you believe and why do you believe it? And if you could list your denominations that would be great. Interested in where folks stand on the topic and their background.

Pentecostal Christian here. My view is where the vast majority of Pentecostal churches stand on the issue, but you could find some Pentecostals who take a “OSAS” view on the subject.

Pentecostals reject OSAS or the “eternal security of the believer.” We would believe in what can be called conditional security of the believer. The Assemblies of God put out a position paper a few years ago that summarizes this position well titled “Assurance of Salvation”. I quote as follows:

The Assemblies of God affirms the biblical teaching that people enter into a personal saving relationship with Christ through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, who draws them to repentance and faith in Christ. Jesus described this initial salvation experience as “new birth” (John 3:3–6),1 as did the apostle Peter (1 Peter 1:3). Likewise, Paul wrote, “He saved us through the washing of rebirth [ palingenesias , “rebirth” or “regeneration”] and renewal by the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5), also using “new creation” for this transformative saving event (2 Corinthians 5:17).

At the time of the believer’s new birth, theologically designated “regeneration,” the Holy Spirit comes into them, bringing assurance of forgiveness of sins, spiritual renewal, and a personal relationship with God. “The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children” (Romans 8:16). This dynamic relationship with God by His Spirit, initiated and sustained through faith, undergirds the security of the believer.

The following biblical teachings sustain and guide the believer’s growing maturity and perseverance in their relationship with Christ.

• Salvation is available for every person (Luke 19:10; John 3:16; Romans 10:11–13; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17).
• Salvation is received and assured through faith (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:20–21; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; Hebrews 10:38; 1 Peter 1:5).
• Salvation is an ongoing conflict with temptation and sin (Romans 1:32; 1 Corinthians 3:1–3, 5–8; 5:9–13; Hebrews 3:12–14; 12:1; 1 John 1:8; 3:8).
• The believer’s salvation may be forfeited or abandoned by willfully turning away from Christ (John 17:12; 1 Timothy 4:1; 5:12, 15; Hebrews 6:4–6, 10:26–27, 38; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 5:16).

“Willfully turning away from Christ” is explained as:

But, the Bible also teaches that believers who have accepted Christ as Savior can be lost if they repeatedly disregard the teachings of Scripture, continue to resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and finally reach the point where they have turned away from their Savior.

 

[Vico]

I was trying to figure out how to turn this into a poll. I’m not seeing the option.

Anyway - even when i was Non Catholic, i never bought into OSAS or once saved always saved. I tried to believe…but I saw too many scriptures that contradict it.

What do you believe and why do you believe it? And if you could list your denominations that would be great. Interested in where folks stand on the topic and their background.

Thanks

Although I am Catholic I want to make the comment that rather than OSAS the term used is Perseverance of the Saints, for example from John Calvin. The idea is that people who profess Christ as Savior and later walk away and deny Christ, were not really saved.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

But, the Bible also teaches that believers who have accepted Christ as Savior can be lost if they repeatedly disregard the teachings of Scripture, continue to resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and finally reach the point where they have turned away from their Savior.

So, similar to the Catholic belief. And I have heard the OSAS crowd pile on the Pentecostals for this stance.

I once heard a Catholic apologist on EWTN say you can lose your salvation but it’s not like losing your car keys. You have to totally reject God…sin and refuse to repent. And that jives with my personal interpretation of the scriptures.

 

[ltwin]

I once heard a Catholic apologist on EWTN say you can lose your salvation but it’s not like losing your car keys. You have to totally reject God…sin and refuse to repent. And that jives with my personal interpretation of the scriptures.

Yeah. It’s not like oh I told one lie and now I’m going to hell. There is a way that we harden our hearts and desensitize ourselves to sin each time we fall into it. The Holy Spirit will tell us that we’ve sinned and if we stay sensitive to his prompting then we will turn away from sin.

But if we harden our hearts and refuse to heed the Spirit’s warnings it gets more difficult for us to acknowledge that conviction and we go further and further into sin. Eventually, we reach a point where “no further sacrifice for sins remains” as Hebrews 10:26 puts it.

So, the key is staying in the Word and in prayer so you remain sensitive to the Holy Spirit’s voice and when he convicts us of sins we are filled with Godly sorrow and we are moved to repentance.

 

[MiserereMei]

Lutheran (ELCA).

Yes. Salvation can be lost according to the Lutheran Confessions, quoted below (Kolb-Wengert translation).

Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article xi, 42:

Thus, many accept the Word “with joy,” but thereafter they “fall away” (Luke 8[:13]). The cause for this, however, is not that God did not want to give the grace of perseverance to those in whom he had “begun the good work,” for that is contrary to St. Paul in Philippians 1[:6]. Rather, the cause is that they willfully turn themselves away again from God’s holy command and grieve and embitter the Holy Spirit; they entangle themselves once again in the defilements of the world and redecorate their hearts as a haven for the devil, so that their last state is worst than their first (2 Peter 2[:10, 20]; Luke 11[:24, 25]; Heb. 10[:26; cf. Eph. 4:30]).

 

[JonNC]

Lutheran (ELCA).

Yes. Salvation can be lost according to the Lutheran Confessions, quoted below (Kolb-Wengert translation).

Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Article xi, 42:

Thus, many accept the Word “with joy,” but thereafter they “fall away” (Luke 8[:13]). The cause for this, however, is not that God did not want to give the grace of perseverance to those in whom he had “begun the good work,” for that is contrary to St. Paul in Philippians 1[:6]. Rather, the cause is that they willfully turn themselves away again from God’s holy command and grieve and embitter the Holy Spirit; they entangle themselves once again in the defilements of the world and redecorate their hearts as a haven for the devil, so that their last state is worst than their first (2 Peter 2[:10, 20]; Luke 11[:24, 25]; Heb. 10[:26; cf. Eph. 4:30]).

Amen. This is most certainly true.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I’m not talking about election. That’s a different topic. We don’t know who the elect are. There are no X’s on people’s foreheads.

 

[ltwin]

Knowledge of truth is not “regenerated or born again”.

The passage is clearly referring to those who have been born again. If you keep reading, verses 29 states:

How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

He’s talking about people who have already been sanctified and later “profane the blood of the covenant” by deliberate sin. Sanctification is a result of regeneration, not something separate. He’s obviously talking about someone who had been regenerated.

Read on…”Call to remembrance the former days in which you were illuminated” that is not talking about the heart but the mind. Not talking about Christians but Apostasy.

That is one way you could interpret it, but I find it unconvincing that Paul is saying “I’m talking about the fake Christians among us, not the really saved.”