Non- Catholic Christians: can you lose your salvation?

[Lenten_ashes]

Hebrews 10:26

Amen…and the verse prior talks about forsaking of the assembly .These are true Christians he is talking about…clearly, imo.

That verse and Hebrews 6:4-6 seem pretty clear me. Talked to my Anglican pastor about it at the time and he felt the same …and he holds a Master of Divinity.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

They received the Holy Spirit …

When / How do we receive the Holy Spirit? | GotQuestions.org

Using a Protestant link because I realize you are one and I am trying to speak your language.

These are Christians, my friend. There is no way around it.

 

[ltwin]

My Bible doesn’t say they received the HS. Mine says they were partakers of the HS. Partakers doesn’t mean possession, it means association. It doesn’t mean they possessed the HS, it means they were around the HS. They were sharing in an association with the HS.

That’s a lot of mental gymnastics for one word.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

partakers

Definition of partaker: “a person who consumes or indulges in something.”
When I consume an apple, that apple become apart of me. If it is apart of me, I possess it.

 

[ltwin]

Many commentators seem to think so.

Matthew Poole: “In which, after ye were illuminated; in which they were convinced of the truth of the gospel, and received it in the love of it, and externally professed it, by being baptized into Christ, and by it made members of his church, Hebrews 6:4, and testified the truth of their being Christ’s.”

John Gill: “in which after ye were illuminated, by the Spirit of God, to see their impurity, impotence, and unrighteousness, and their lost and miserable state by nature; and to behold Christ and salvation by him; and to have some light into the doctrines of the Gospel; and some glimmering of the glories of another world. The Syriac and Ethiopic versions render it “baptized”; now such as are converted, and are brought to make a public profession of their faith, and submit to the ordinances of Christ, are, in common, immediately called to suffer reproach and persecution of one kind or another; so Christ, after his baptism, was led into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil: Satan is spiteful and malicious, and God suffers afflictions to befall his people to try their graces, and to inure them to troubles early, as follows;”

Pulpit Commentary: “Once enlightened” denotes the first apprehension of the light, which could be but once; when those that saw not began to see (John 5:39); when the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ shone once for all upon believers (2 Corinthians 4:4); when (according to the cognate passage, Hebrews 10:26; cf. Hebrews 10:32) they received the knowledge of the truth. . . . But, if so, more is meant by the phrase than “those who have been once baptized:” an inward spiritual illumination is plainly pointed to; and it would not have been said of Simon Magus that he had been “once enlightened” in the sense intended. And this is indeed the real meaning of φωτισμός as applied to baptism by Justin Martyr, as his explanation, above quoted, shows. So also Chrysostom (‘Hem.’ 116.), “The heretics have baptism, but not enlightenment (φωτισμα); they are baptized indeed as to the body, but in the soul they are not enlightened; as also Simon was baptized, but was not enlightened.” This consideration is important in view of one misapplication of the passage before us, which will be noticed below. But, further, those whom it is impossible to renew unto repentance are supposed not only to have been enlightened, but also to have “tasted of the heavenly gift,” the emphatic word here being apparently γενσαμένους: they have had experience as well as knowledge (cf. Psalm 34:8, “Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good;” and 1 Peter 2:3, “If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious”). The word “gift” (δωρεά) is elsewhere used both for that of redemption generally (Romans 5:15-17), and especially, and most frequently, for the gift of the Holy Ghost (cf. 2 Corinthians 9:15, “Thanks be to God for his unspeakable Gift”). They have become also partakers of the Holy Ghost, not merely been within the range of his influence, but actually shared it; and tasted . . .

 

[ltwin]

Furthermore, Homer A. Kent writes about this in his commentary on Hebrews:

Although some of the ancients, (e.g. Justin) explained this enlightenment as water baptism, and many today explain it of spiritual exposure or illumination short of regeneration, the use of “once for all” points to something complete, rather than partial or inadequate. The very same participle is used in 10:32, with no hint that there was anything inadequate or tentative about their spiritual enlightenment. Normal understanding of the passage in 10:32 as well as 6:4 would lead us to assume real enlightenment by regeneration.

Others have pointed to the need to interpret “illumination” in light of 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 in which Christian experience is likened to seeing the light:

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants[a] for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[TULIPed]

Isn’t it a bit like predestination? So what happens if you aren’t chosen? Why would God not choose someone? Doesn’t he want all to be saved? Also, wouldn’t it go against free will if we couldn’t “unchoose” him?

Reformed theology weighs heavily on the concepts of God’s sovereignty and providence. Your questions revolve around the “why” of God. Job’s answer is perhaps instructive - from Chapter 1 (After losing his home and family):

“20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”“

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

Greek word for partake means to eat or consume. Same exact meaning.

 

[Theo520]

I think the way to state it is, if you walk away from your faith then you were never saved in the first place. People who were truly saved don’t veer off the path.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

The greek is γευσαμένους Greek Concordance: γευσαμένους (geusamenous) -- 2 Occurrences which means to partake of, consume of. Therefore my definition is right. You used the wrong word. Do a little more research before you say something.

 

[stoplooklisten]

What are the many scriptures that contradict OSAS?

Here are some…

• Parable of the house built on the rock v. parable of the house built on the sand (Some build their Christian living on an insecure foundation - Matthew 7)
• Parable of the sower (Some seeds grow for a while and then wither away)(Matthew 13)
• “He who endures to the end shall be saved.” (Jesus in Matthew 10:22)
• If you are lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth (letter to the Church at Laodicea - Revelation 3)
• “To him who overcomes…” (in each of the seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2-3
• They profess that they know God but in works they deny him (Titus 1:16)
• "If they shall fall away… (Hebrews 6:6)
• Branches cut off and burned (John 15:6)

 

[stoplooklisten]

Here are some more:

• “overthrow the faith of some.” - (2 Timothy 2:14)
• The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (2 Timothy 2:19 KJV) (The LORD knows those who are his. The rest of us may not know. If you want to show that you belong to the LORD, then depart from sin and iniquity)

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour.This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God.

I think this is quite compatible with Catholic teaching. Others can not nullify our Salvation- God certainly will not. Satan can tempt us, but ultimately choice is ours.

 

[stoplooklisten]

House built on rock/sand
After Jesus spoke the people were responsible to make a choice. They can build on one of the two foundations.

Not sure how that has to do with losing salvation…

You can fake yourself out and think that you are “believing” when you are not really believing. If you are believing, then you will live it out.

The person whose house is built upon the rock will hear the word of God and do it. Their house will endure and not crumble when the storms come.

There are others who hear the word of God but will not follow through with actions. They may build a house of faith but it’s like a house of cards. When the storms come, the house will crumble and be destroyed. Their house was built upon the sand. (Matthew 7)

Matthew 7 is also the place where you see the many who tell the LORD that they prophesied and cast out devils and did wondrous works to whom Jesus will say “depart from me, you that work iniquity” (Matthew 7:23)

 

[stoplooklisten]

If you go back to v15, isn’t Jesus talking about false teachers and not true believers?

The larger passage there is:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Most “Christians” will affirm that every Christian is a priest but actually every Christian is not only a priest but also a prophet and a king. We do want to discern the true from the false prophets. We do that on the credible basis of fruits (not the artificial, unreliable standard of “credible profession of faith”). It takes time to produce fruit. People can make a credible profession of faith today but time will tell whether they bring forth good fruit and whether they even remain in the visible church. Matthew 7:19 is much like John 15:6, some growing tree branches are cut off and burned. Some growing tree branches will lose their salvation.

Another relevant Scripture passage is 1John 5:16-17 where it talks about “sin unto death” and “sin not unto death”. This passage is related to the Catholic Church doctrine of venial and mortal sins. Mortal sins are “sins unto death”. Professing, baptized Christians can commit mortal sin. Unpardoned mortal sin will separate a person from God forever. King David committed mortal sin but he repented deeply (Psalm 51) and hopefully obtained pardon. For Catholics, they can go to the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation (John 20:23) and seek absolution from a Catholic priest. Correction: Psalm 51

 

[stoplooklisten]

King David knew that he could lose his salvation. He prayed: “Take not your Holy Spirit from me”.

Do not drive me from before your face, nor take from me your holy spirit. (Psalm 51:13)

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Do you sin willfully or someone forces you to do it?

 

[stoplooklisten]

The Bible clearly says Jesus knows His children. How can Matt 7 be talking about true Christians if Jesus says I never knew you?

We are in a courtship stage in our relationship with Jesus Christ. The marriage won’t be consumated until the time of the marriage supper of the Lamb (Revelation 20). We can abide in Jesus or not. We can walk in the darkness or walk in the light. If we (Christians) abide in Jesus Christ and walk in the light, then that’s a good thing but we’re not forced to do that.

Of course, Jesus is God-man and God knows all things. But, this is “knowing” in an intimate sense and Jesus will not know us intimately if we are not open and honest and sincere with Him. We will not have an intimate relationship with Jesus if we continue to rebel against the Triune God in willful and disobedient sin.

Yes, Jesus knows his sheep but some do wander and become lost. We live in the hope of a salvation that is yet to be revealed. Until the day we die, we remain capable of sin and these include “sins unto death”. God respects us and doesn’t take away our freedom. Freedom comes with responsibility. We retain the freedom to sin if we so choose. We retain the responsibility to hate what is evil and cling to what is good.

King David committed adultery and murder. Professing Christians, alive on earth, remain capable of similar grievous and evil deeds. We continue to pray “lead us not into temptation”. Let us run well with endurance the race that is set before us looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12). It is good that we have begun to walk in faith and righteousness, let us complete / finish the journey of life in abiding faith and righteousness.

 

[stoplooklisten]

What are the many scriptures that contradict OSAS?

Another one is:

“But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.” (Matthew 6:15).

We agree to these “terms and conditions” every time we pray this: “forgive us our trespasses/ debts as / in the same way as we forgive those who trespass against us / are indebted to us”.

 

[stoplooklisten]

John 10:28-30
I give them eternal life and they shall never perish no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So how does a Christian wander and get lost?

Jesus knows who the sheep are. We may not know. They follow Jesus.

King David didn’t follow Jesus when he wandered into grievous sin. Was King David not one of his sheep?

My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. (John 10:22)

We are commanded not to tempt the Lord our God. Do you thing that someone can sin willfully and Jesus is forced to bring them back into the flock of sheep? That would be tempting God and trying to force God.

“I have wandered like a lost sheep, seek out your servant, for I do not forget your commandments” (Psalm 119:176)

If we sin (venial or mortal), we should confess our sins to another person and have that person pray fervently for us (James 5:16) The Holy Spirit has led the Church to establish the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation for that. It would be foolish not to carefully consider to whom we confess and to confess to just anyone.

If we wander and sin, God is a good God but He is a Holy God. We should not assume that God will seek us out and bring us back to saintly behavior. If we acknowledge our sins, this is good but God knows our hearts better than we do about how honest we are. We cannot force God to act. We can pray to God to seek out the wandering sheep as in Psalm 119. We must continue to seek out God and to grow in righteous and holy living throughout our lifetimes (Matthew 6:33).