Non- Catholic Christians: can you lose your salvation?

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ltwin said:
Pentecostal Christian here. My view is where the vast majority of Pentecostal churches stand on the issue, but you could find some Pentecostals who take a “OSAS” view on the subject.

Pentecostals reject OSAS or the “eternal security of the believer.” We would believe in what can be called conditional security of the believer. The Assemblies of God put out a position paper a few years ago that summarizes this position well titled “Assurance of Salvation”. I quote as follows:
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I am a Methodist and I believe similarly to this. A Christian can willfully turn away from Christ by repeatedly disregarding the teachings of Scripture and repeatedly rejecting the conviction of the Holy Spirit. However, if a Christian continues to persevere by faith and in deed, repent of his sins, and seek to love God and his neighbor as himself (Matt 22:37), he has a well-founded hope of salvation/heaven when he dies.

Those who accept Christ as savior in a church service (altar call, etc) can become genuine followers of Christ or can become like the seed in Matthew 13:5-6, where it says:
Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly because the soil was shallow. But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root
 
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Benny12 said:
You said Jesus knows His sheep. So we agree Matthew 7 Jesus is not talking to true believers?

If a Christian wanders and is lost then we apply 1 John 2:19 if they belong to us they would’ve stayed with us.
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Every scripture is beneficial to everyone. I don’t try to selectively exclude passages and say that they don’t apply to me or anyone. In particular, I don’t try to exclude a portion of the Sermon on the Mount like Matthew 7. I have encountered people who sound like they want to reduce the Bible down to the writings of Paul only plus maybe John 3:16.

I also wouldn’t try to read too much into passages like 1 John 2:19.

You can believe what you want to believe. Some Christians belong to a denomination that’s so small that it has only themself in it.

You can use 1 John 2:19 alone to answer the question of professing Christians who commit grievous sins and leave the Church but the truth often requires more than a single proof text.

The Apostle Paul at Miletus told the Ephesian elders that he was not blood-guilty because had taught them the entire counsel or plan of God (Acts 20:27). We can pick and choose the Scriptures that seem to fit what we already believe or we can consider all the Scriptures, even the hard passages and the ones that seem to contradict what we currently believe.
 
One of the most abused passages in the bible by the OSAS folks.

Read it closely. Who is there ready to stone him in John 10? The unbelieving Jews. Jesus is making a point right to their stubborn faces. He tells them you are not my sheep and you do not believe.(verse 26)

All that passage is saying…and the point of emphasis is, nobody can touch your relationship with Jesus and prevent YOUR personal salvation that He offers to you. Especially not the Jews of his day who thought they knew it all and held the keys to salvation.

What that passage does NOT say is that you can not choose to leave the fold yourself.
 
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I’ve heard that Billy Graham once said that only 10% of those “saved” at one of his crusades were retained into Christianity. And only half of those 10% make it long term.
 
I happen to be one of those who came to faith at one of his crusades when I was in my mid-teens (many moons ago).

However, I also realize some come down motivated by emotions only, which I think is like the sower’s seed that gets choked out.
 
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Benny12 said:
That’s a nice dodge but is Jesus talking to true Christians in Matthew 7?

You said earlier Jesus knows his sheep,…
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Jesus knows his sheep but considering the whole counsel of God, I don’t think that we have any lock-in where we cannot sin the “sin unto death”. David had no lock-in. He committed adultery and then murder. I think that New Testament disciples also have no lock-in. Apostasy, falling away, departing from God remain possible for all until we die. Fortunately, our God is merciful to those who repent (like the Prodigal Son) but we can also become like Esau (or Judas) who seemed to want to repent and obtain pardon but found themselves unable to do so.

Sin is departing from the will of God. Holy saints achieve progress in keeping themselves within the will of God but many of us come short.

Be ware lest there be an evil and unfaithful heart in you in departing from the living God (Hebrews 3:12). We are warned for a reason.

Baptism is our entrance into the Church. We are espoused to Christ. The marriage supper is in the future. Faithfulness and unfaithfulness are both possible. Let us be faithful to Jesus Christ. He loves us. We do well to love Him back and to do His will and to keep his commandments.

Jesus said “Follow me” and as well as “believe in Me”. We are disciples in hope of salvation. People can do miracles and cast out demons and give their bodies to be burned but if we have not love (for God and neighbor), it profits us nothing (1 Co 13). We don’t have Almighty God all figured out. The LORD knows them that are His. (2 Timothy 2:19). Our responsibility is to depart from evil and continue as faithful disciples.
 
OK, so you DO sin willfully just like the rest of us. Nobody forces you to do it. Got it.
 
Oh, I have no doubt many are genuine conversions. Graham was a great man with a great message. God bless his soul.
 
Benny12 said:
Ok, then we agree that Jesus is not talking to true Christians in Matthew 7:23?

Correct?
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`Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ (Mt 7:22–23).
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The people in Matthew 7:23 won’t be found to be “true Christians” in the end but they may have spent their entire lifetimes in church and “in the kingdom”. But, who knows who the true Christians are? Ultimately, that’s a job for angels to collect those who are not true Christians and bring them out of the kingdom.

I have done a Catholic-non-Catholic-Catholic journey during my life. I was both Baptist and Presbyterian for many years. I once visited a new church and heard a Baptist pastor claim that he would only baptize “true Christians”. Earlier, at my own church, I had seen other Baptists pastors and deacons baptize a person one year and excommunicate that same person the next year. Now, where does that lead? Did the Baptist pastors fail to interview properly to assess for “credible profession of faith”? Did the excommunicated person “lose their salvation”?

I say that identifying the “true Christians” is a job for angels because Jesus gave this explanation to the parable of the wheat and the tares/weeds:
Then, dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples approached him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He said in reply, “He who sows good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world, the good seed the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the children of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. Just as weeds are collected and burned [up] with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears ought to hear. (Mt 13:36–43).
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The punishment is severe for those people previously in the kingdom who caused others to sin. At best, similar people like that may go to heaven but they will be the least in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19).

If we know them by anything before the end, we will know the true Christians by their fruits (Matthew 7:16).
 
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Sounds like you might also lack an understanding of Catholic theology. I’m not saving myself. We are saved by grace.

But I am glad you finally admitted to willfully sinning… If we do that, without repentance and die in that hard hearted state, we are damned. That’s how it works. Hebrews 10:26 tells us this.
 
Benny12 said:
We all sin. The difference is I rely on Christ to keep my salvation. You try to keep yours on your own. How’s that work if you keep sinning?
Good luck
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“Love is patient, love is kind…” This post does not seem like it’s either, no?
 
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There are several views on Apostasy in Non-Catholic Christianity.

The majority of Non-Catholic Christianity is Armenian in doctrine which Itwin and others have explained. The second would be reformed view of Perseverance of the Saints which TULIPed Explained.
A third would be Security of the Believer, which is essentially Perseverance of the Saints without having to deal with the messy doctrine of predestination and election. It is basically an Armenian view of conversion and a Reformed view of Perseverance.
A fourth would be the free grace movement. This is the once saved always saved theology that is often talked about by Catholics on this forum. Basically, say a prayer and believe and your good.

As I’ve delved deeper into Theology over the past few years I’ve moved from the “Security of the Believer” toward the “Reformed Perseverance of the Saints” in my understanding.

I reject Free Grace Theology, because it basically says we can be saved without a real and permanent change in our heart, our affections and attitudes if you will, that results in “Loving God and Loving Others”.
 
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Anything we do…good works…all stem from the grace of God. That is RCC theology.

To Him be all the glory and honor. And I take zero credit for it. That includes the ability to humble myself before Him and repent.

It appeared in your somewhat uncharitable post that you were going in the typical ‘you Catholics save yourself’ direction, which is not true. If I am saved, it’s thanks to God. If I am damned, it’s because of me rejecting His grace. That’s all I am saying.
 
Very good post. I agree that predestination is a messy topic.

My outlook is this – Catholics, Orthodox and many Protestants believe you can lose the salvation given to you by flat out rejecting God’s amazing grace and dying in that state. That is an overwhelming majority of Christendom that holds this belief. And prior to the reformation, it was even less holding the OSAS position then there is now. This is an idea that is mostly foreign to the faith throughout our history.

So, I do not want to change anyone’s mind. For those reformed who believe otherwise, I want to try and better understand how they can hold the position. I’ve studied the scriptures and I personally do not see it.

Thanks.
 
Willful just means intentional or deliberate, Benny.

Are you suggesting that when you or any other OSAS believer sin, they were all unintentional?
 
Lenten_ashes said:
What do you believe and why do you believe it?
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I haven’t yet viewed the other answers but I suspect mine might be well outside the box. To state it right up front, I don’t believe in the need for salvation at all or that anyone is ever “lost”. Origen felt somewhat along these lines and for years was branded a heretic. He is now recognized as a tremendous contributor to early Catholic and Christian thought but will never be canonized like so many of his contemporaries. My reasons for this I will keep brief.

Along with Catholicism I have been researching many other schools of thought regarding the reasons for our existence, the latter for about 18 years. From a young age I have been well versed in the traditional Christian teachings regarding Adam’s fall, the need for redemption, Jesus’ sacrifice, and the existences of heaven and hell. While I still embrace a great deal of that, and have stated often how I love Catholicism, I no longer believe in the kind of God which accompanied those early lessons. But I can say I agree with a large number of readings I have delved into by those who have had the Near Death Experience, which includes many devout Christians.

What I came away with from them, and this is something which rang as being profoundly true with me at the time (this is a whole other topic which I won’t go into here), is that we are here by choice, that we all were living beings prior to our human life, and that all that matters from having lived a physical life is the experience and the knowledge we take away from it. This can include living within a structured religious environment, even though I no longer believe a few of the basic tenets of such. In fact, the more I enter into Catholicism, the more I realize that there is not really very much at all that separates me from the mainstream traditions. The need for salvation happens to be one, though, so I am happy to take part in your survey. 🙂
 
It is an interesting topic. I’ve been reading Augustine. I would say his doctrine was “Once Elect always Elect”. Basically, that the elect are given the gift of perseverance and if they fall away will be restored and the non-elect will either never profess faith or profess faith and live a godly life and then fall away, never to be restored.

The faith of these, which works by love, either actually does not fail at all, or, if there are any whose faith fails, it is restored before their life is ended, and the iniquity which had intervened is done away, and perseverance even to the end is allotted to them. But they who are not to persevere, and who shall so fall away from Christian faith and conduct that the end of this life shall find them in that case, beyond all doubt are not to be reckoned in the number of these, even in that season wherein they are living well and piously. For they are not made to differ from that mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore are not called according to God’s purpose, and thus are not elected; but are called among those of whom it was said, Many are called, not among those of whom it was said, But few are elected. Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace Chapter 16

Augustine then answers the objection that they must be elect if there believed and were baptized and lived according to God.

they are called elect by those who are ignorant of what they shall be, but not by Him who knew that they would not have the perseverance which leads the elect forward into the blessed life, and knows that they so stand, as that He has foreknown that they will fall.

This teaching is found in several of his writings. Including On the Predestination of the Saints-Book1 and Book 2 and the On Rebuke and Grace.

Predestination, Election, and Perseverance of the Saints may not be Catholic but it is certainly Augustinian.

I say all of that to point of that some version of the Elect (true believers) will endure to the End has been around a long long time.
 
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lanman87 said:
I say all of that to point of that some version of the Elect (true believers) will endure to the End has been around a long long time.
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Yes. But, who are the elect? God only knows. The elect are certainly not the same as the visible Church.
If we say, “We have fellowship with him,” while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth. (1 Jn 1:6)
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Look at 1 Jn 1:6. There were people in John’s Church audience who claimed to have fellowship with Divinity, yet who walked in darkness, told lies and did not act in truth. They were in the visible Church, almost certainly baptized, but yet not truly in fellowship with the Triune God.
 
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