Non- Catholic Christians: can you lose your salvation?

[Lenten_ashes]

Benny, I want you to first give me your bank account and 401k. Then I am going to ask you if it actually counts I don’t want to just look at it, I want to share in it.

Hint: Shared in, is part of.

Jesus called Judas a devil. I clearly told you it was POSSIBLE he was always a devil. I do not know for sure. The Church, to my knowledge, has made no official delcaration on his spiritual status. Neither do I.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

How do we know Judas didn’t truely repent in his last breath? There are no scriptures or traditions to suggest otherwise. Goes back to my original point that not enough is known to be 100% certain in his case.

I was quite the ‘devil’ myself at one point. Gang member, did bad things. There are also those cases in which people appear to be great Christians and later in life become heathen slime dogs.

Jesus also said the first will be last, etc. You will be surprised at who is there or not there.

The class is dismissed after you give me your funds and I ask if you if it counted or not.

I’ll DM you my paypal addy. Thanks.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

That’s true.…at the point Jesus made that statement.

But if Judas, or me, or you, or anybody repents, things can change.

That’s the problem…Calvinists often see everything in black or white. It’s why I no longer post on CARM for fear of losing my patience and my mind

 

[Lenten_ashes]

It’s possible he is in hell.

We dont know for sure:

Could Judas Iscariot have sought forgiveness instead of falling into despair and hanging himself? | Catholic Answers Q&A

 

[Lenten_ashes]

You are drawing a whole bunch of conclusions. Building castles in order to support your presuppositions.

We do not have a lot of info on Judas. Jesus ministry was 3 years long and what details we do have is tiny in comparison to what actually happen as the end of John’s gospel tells us. I’ve always held the position that we can’t be certain as he was remorseful and returned the money.

And if he is or isn’t damned…how do we know he shared in and tasted of the Spirit to begin with? How do we know he didn’t just have exposore to it? While the other disciples are casting out demons etc, he is in the back stealing benny’s 401k lol.

 

[Tommy999]

God is our judge - not anyone on this forum. The same goes for whether Judas Iscariot is in hell or not. We may infer he is there based on limited scriptural references to him, but it is only a presumption since no human is Judas’ final judge.
In my opinion, the Lord would have had to have been been a masochist if Judas had no possible chance to repent before killing himself. Since Jesus is not a masochist, we can always hope that Judas did the right thing and repented.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Benny - I know it’s human nature to try and win an argument no matter what. But putting words in folks mouth who didn’t say them or ideas in their head that they were not thinking doesn’t help your cause.

I have to believe in hell as its a doctrine of the faith, but i do not have to believe that anyone in particular is there…whether it be Judas, Hitler or whoever. I would hope all Christians would have a similar thought process as it’s the compassionate approach.

In regards to the suicidal, they are in a dark place. One in which I hope I never experience. I do not know if they are fully culpable for their actions as a result of their distorted mental state. If it weren’t such a delicate topic… that would be a good question to ask protestant Christian Tony Dungy, who raised his son to be a good Christian…only to see him kill himself at age 18. Or my deacon, who lost his daughter to suicide despite her upbringing.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hebrews is describing a very hard hearted person. I do not presume to judge whether Judas or anyone in particular had hit that state and is damned. And you shouldn’t either.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Lol…you want me to put people in hell in order for you to win an argument. Disgraceful.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Im drowning? You already lost with your strawman lol

Keep believing Heb 6 says something other than what it actually says in order to fit with your presuppositions. It’s your choice.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Obviously you hold a different interpretation of that than I do. And obviously you don’t understand my position on it. Maybe I am not being clear enough or perhaps you are intentionally obfuscating.

I’ll try to explain one final time…my position that has never changed since 2008 when I talked to my then Anglican pastor about it. Hebrews 6 is describing a Christian who has turned away. They have reached a point of no return. Their heart is hard. We do not know WHO these folks are so I never assume since election is a mystery. I have hope that anyone can muster up some love for God and repent before it’s too late. How do we know if Judas hit that point? I do not. Compare him to the Jews who blasphemed the Spirit in Matt 12. They had hearts of granite.Judas actually showed remorse, gave the $ back and was so depressed at his own actions that he decided life was not worth living anymore. I would not put him at the same level as the hard hearted Pharisees. Do you?

 

[njlisa]

I was received into the Catholic Church 30 years ago. However, I was raised in the Southern Baptist, which taught “once saved, always saved.”

Note: I no longer hold these views.

Southern Baptists don’t teach original sin. They believe we are born into a fallen world. Theoretically, if you live a perfect life, you go to heaven.

Instead, they believe in the age of accountabilty – the age a child understands right from wrong and the principles of the faith. At this point, the child is at risk of hell. The only way to avoid hell is to accept Jesus as one’s personal Lord and Savior.

There was no specific prayer. But the person would need to:

• admit he/she is a sinner
• believe that Jesus died for his/her sins
• ask Jesus to forgive all his/her sins
• ask Jesus to become his/her personal Lord and savior

After this prayer, the person is permanently saved.

Baptism by full immersion is an ordinance of initiation. But it has no salvific properties.

Although guaranteed of salvation, a person can lose God’s protection. But this individual still goes to heaven – even if he/she becomes a serial killer.

People who have never heard the Gospel will not go to hell. I used to say in Sunday school that the church shouldn’t sent missionaries to remote places. That way, they’d never go to hell. My opinion was not well-received.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Jesus words prove Judas wasn’t saved.

Judas was one of the Twelve who had authority over unclean spirits.

And he calleth unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and he gave them authority over the unclean spirits - Mark 6:7

Judas apostasized. Judas fell away.

God is a mystery. We don’t have Him all figured out. Some things He has revealed in Scripture, Church Teaching, nature. But, only some things.

 

[stoplooklisten]

So they went off and preached repentance. They drove out many demons, and they anointed with oil many who were sick and cured them. (Mark 6:12-13)

Judas was part of the Twelve who preached repentance. Judas drove out many demons. Judas anointed with oil many who were sick and cured them.

Judas could not have done those deeds without an anointing. Judas was “saved” at this point but lost his salvation.

Judas apostasized. Judas fell away.

 

[stoplooklisten]

can’t be both saved and apostate

Apostasy is a defection and an abandonment of a previous loyalty. Apostates need something to apostasize from.

Concerning Judas, one of the Twelve, Jesus said it would have been better for that man if had never been born. (Mark 14:21)

Judas was in a position of trust. He betrayed Jesus (and the Twelve). Judas was unfaithful to his covenant. It is required of stewards that they be found faithful.

 

[stoplooklisten]

70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

How this this any indication Judas was saved?

Judas’s heart and affections and loyalty had started to turn away. Earlier, Judas had been an anointed member of the Twelve who drove out demons and anointed the sick with oil and cured them. (Mark 6).

 

[stoplooklisten]

The Balaam the false prophet was empowered by the Holy Spirit (Numbers 24:2)

Judas had charge of the money bag for Jesus and the Twelve and stole from it. That type of sin led to greater sin. Balaam prophesied the truth but he erred because of his covetousness. Annanias and Sapphira were Christians who died suddenly because of the issue of money and bearing false witness. King David coveted his neighbor’s wife and sinned grievously. Covetousness tempts many. Sin has consequences. “Saved people” can be tempted and sin grievously and face ruin.

ii. The Bible tells us how covetousness has ruined many people.

• Balaam sold out God’s people and his own soul for covetousness (Numbers 22, 2 Peter 2:14–16)
• Ahab murdered for covetousness (1 Kings 21:1–13)
• David committed adultery and murder because he coveted (2 Samuel 6:2–17)
• Achan stole and brought Israel to defeat by covetousness (Joshua 7:21)
• Judas stole from his fellow disciples and betrayed Jesus for covetousness (John 12:6 and Matthew 26:14–16)
• Gehazi lied for the sake of covetousness (2 Kings 5:20–26)
• Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit out of covetousness (Acts 5:1–8)

Source: Pastor David Guzik (Calvary Chapel) commentary on the Psalms

 

[MarkRome]

Charles Stanley is a big proponent of eternal security. In fact, he wrote a book called Eternal Security. The bottom line is that, according to him, nothing you do will separate you from God. If you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior at one point in your life, you are eternally secure. Period. No matter how you live your life afterward. There is no litmus test to see if you were truly converted.

 

[TULIPed]

If you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior at one point in your life, you are eternally secure. Period. No matter how you live your life afterward. There is no litmus test to see if you were truly converted.

True. He does however argue that continued sin is not without consequences. From Stanley’s sermon “Your Convictions About Eternal Security”:

“So, what I want you to see is this: if you are really saved, truly saved, you’re saved forever. What kind of life are you to live? A godly life, a holy life; righteous life, not just good, but a godly life. If you don’t, you can ask God to forgive you, and He’ll forgive you. Now watch this carefully, are you listening? Say, “Amen”. Depending upon the nature of the sin, that will depend upon the type of chastisement you receive, or discipline, and the length of it. The discipline, the chastisement that comes upon believers, not unbelievers, believers disobeying God depends upon the nature of that sin, how long you continue to sin, and the degree to which you sin. So nobody, watch this, nobody gets away with sin. You say, “Well, I know so-and-so,” no you don’t. You don’t. If a person’s saved and they disobeyed God, there’s going to be chastisement.”

His angle is that if you are truly saved and continue to sin, you’re going to get held accountable by God.

(I’m not a proponent of Stanley BTW - he’s an Armenian in terms of theology. Not my cup of tea.)

 

[MarkRome]

His angle is that if you are truly saved and continue to sin, you’re going to get held accountable by God.

(I’m not a proponent of Stanley BTW - he’s an Armenian in terms of theology. Not my cup of tea.)

Yes, he believes that you will receive some physical consequences of sin, but not eternal. I wouldn’t classify him as Arminian because Arminianism says that eternal security is conditional. Stanley most assuredly doesn’t teach that.