Non- Catholic Christians: can you lose your salvation?

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Fair. I’d argue though he’s way closer to Arminianism than he is to Calvinism.

In any case, I would say that the biggest issue my Catholic friends have with the doctrine of Perseverance (I would use an acronym accept it has some unfortunate siblings - maybe we’ll use “DoP”?) is the idea that adherents use it to “sin so that grace might abound”.

I’m sure there are those who do exactly this. Similarly, I’m sure there are Catholics who use confession and the Eucharist to do precisely the same thing, i.e. if I confess and participate in Mass, I’ve got a clean slate to go and do whatever I want as long as I “wipe it clean” again.

I think both sides would argue that these people are either: (a) poorly catechized; or (b) not believers to begin with. All this to say, I think folks in general have more of an issue with people than theology with regard to these matters.
 
Catholics probably wouldn’t question whether someone was a believer to begin with. That’s what a Calvinist would question. It might be a matter of poor catechesis, but if there is ignorance of the law there remains the possibility it isn’t a mortal sin.

I think if one deconstructs Calvinism, one has to conclude there can be no assurance of salvation. Unless you infallibly know the future, one can’t know for certain whether they will stay in the faith.
 
lanman87 said:
Can one be certain that they are saved if they are living by faith?
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One can have a reasonable hope of salvation if they have not knowingly committed a mortal sin without repentance/confession. One cannot know with 100% certainty that one is in a state of grace…
 
MarkRome said:
I wouldn’t classify him as Arminian because Arminianism says that eternal security is conditional. Stanley most assuredly doesn’t teach that.
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Actually, there are Arminians who believe in free will for initial conversion and then believe in unconditional eternal security. This hodgepodge is prevalent among Southern Baptists.

It’s the roach motel model: you voluntarily enter in but you never leave. 😁

It’s not really Calvinist since there is still free will involved.
 
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Calvinists believe in free will - we’re all free to be as depraved as we want to be 🙂
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Origen is a controversial figure.
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I meant to reply yesterday to say that those are the sort of folks I’m most interested in. Origen, Richard Rohr, Marcus Borg, John Shelby Spong etc. I like to see what they say that gets some people so upset.
 
Benny12 said:
How did these people cast out demons, prophesy and perform miracles as non-believers?
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Good point. Not possible. Judas was a believer. Then, he stole some money and moved on to bigger sins like betraying Jesus Christ. Judas fell away from the faith.
 
Benny12 said:
If you fall away from the faith read 1 John 2:19 again.
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They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. - (1 John 2:19)
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Context. Context. 1 John is about a doctrinal dispute. Doctrinal disputes were very common in the early centuries of the Church and many Church councils were held to settle them like the early Jerusalem council described in Acts 15. Doctrinal disputes remain important today.

The Apostle John is not claiming to know who is eternally secure and who is not. He didn’t know that. He knew more about who held an orthodox doctrinal position and who did not. The unorthodox were the ones who went out.
 
Benny12 said:
They went out from us : The many anitichrists at one time identified as Christians. The fact they left, demonstrates they never were.

The point is not about John knowing who is eternally secure.
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Q. Does God forgive our future sins?

If Jesus Christ asks us to repent and we fail to repent and continue to sin, does that disobedience not show that we don’t really love or believe Jesus Christ?
 
@Benny12

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins…

But, what if we haven’t confessed our sins yet and don’t confess our sin? Where is the Bible chapter and verse to say that Almighty God is obligated to forgive us our future sins? Continuing to sin shows our disobedience and unbelief?

Many Protestant ministers (and more than a few Catholic priests) have gone apostate and fallen away? Who really knows those who were “once saved”?
 
I’m interested what you think of this blog post by the current president of the Southern Baptist Convention?

This is more in line with what I was taught as a Southern Baptist on the doctrine of Eternal Security than what is often portrayed as “once saved always saved”.
 
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I liked it. Thanks for sharing.

The author blows a big hole into this OSAS belief with Romans 11 – just one of many passages that don’t jive very well for those who subscribe to this dangerous, modern day doctrine.

And he says: "When it comes to God, a lot of Christians are all ceremony, no marriage."

Bingo! This applies to Catholics and Protestants. So you accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal savior? Or you went through CCD and received Jesus in Holy Communion? Great – but this is like a marriage and God is not a fool. Jesus Himself said you need to weigh the cost before following Him. (Luke 14: 25-34) Because you could be living a life as a ‘Christian’ and are still going to hell because you never FULLY converted to begin with.

We can all have reasonable assurance of eternal security. But we also need to examine ourselves and our walk with God and be certain we are actually picking up our cross daily and not just on holidays, or whenever it is convenient.

Ultimately, pointing to 1 John 2:19 does nothing more than affirm that God knows who is saved…who will persevere…who has ‘saving faith’.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
We can all have reasonable assurance of eternal security. But we also need to examine ourselves and our walk with God and be certain we are actually picking up our cross daily and not just on holidays, or whenever it is convenient.
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Right down the middle of the Calvinist fairway. The only difference we would have is who gets the credit? You guys say you cooperate with God, a Calvinist says it’s all him - in fact it’s him in spite of us.

The good news in either case is those with true faith are looking for evidence in what they actually do - how they actually love their neighbor sacrificially.
 
1 John 5:13 says I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

So I believe it is possible to know that we have eternal life. However, this verse has to be taken into context of the entire book of 1 John. According to 1 John here are some ways we can know we have eternal life.

We walk in the light 1:7
We confess our sins 1:9
We don’t deny that we are sinners 1:10
We keep His commandments 2:3 and 3:24
We keep His word 2:5
We walk the same way He walked 2:6
We love our brother 2:10
We practice righteousness 2:29 and 3:10
We don’t make a practice sinning 3:4-6 and 5:18
We love one another 3:11-14 and 4:7
We believe in Jesus and Love one another 3:22-24
We test the Spirits to see if they are from God 4:1
Because He has given us His Spirit 4:13
We confess that Jesus is the Son of God 4:15
We believe Jesus is the Christ 5:1

If I examine my life and see that I don’t love my brother then I can’t know I have eternal life.

If I examine my life and find that I’m not convicted by my sin and don’t seek a life of holiness then I can’t know I have eternal life

If I examine my life and discover that I’m not walking in the light of Christ then I can’t know I have eternal life

If I examine my life and find that I’m not acknowledging my sin and confessing and repenting then I can’t know I have eternal life.

If I’m living a life of faith and seeking His Kingdom and His righteousness then those “if’s” can be a great comfort to us and we can “know I have eternal life”. However, if I’m pretending, going through the religious motions, or don’t care about living out the faith that I claim to have, then those “if’s” should be a great cause of concern and lead us to repentance.
 
BTW- the writer of that blog post has a book titled, Stop Asking Jesus into Your Heart: How to know for sure you are saved

Here is an interview he did with The Gospel Coalition about the book.

I post all of this to point out the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, Security of the Believer, or even OSAS (whatever term you want to use) is much more nuanced than is often described by both critics and proponents.

My guess is that if you read Pastor Greear’s book you would be shocked by how much of it you agree with.
 
Well, we would also affirm that it is ultimately all him as well as we respond to His grace. Without his grace it is all impossible. So yes, cooperation occurs and is necessary, but it is stemming from grace.
 
I say the same to protestant Christians about the CCC. If you read the catechism of the Catholic Church you would probably be ok with 80-90% of it.
 
BTW – I need to compliment you. Even though you are a Calvinist you are like the antithesis of Matt Slick and CARM posters. Those folks had really damaged my view of Calvinism in general but people like yourself are really restoring my view on it overall.
 
Thanks for the kind words. We all love and serve the same Lord - who calls us to be kind and humble. Please accept my apologies on behalf of my Calvinist siblings. I’m sorry you were treated that way.
 
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