Non- Catholic Christians: can you lose your salvation?

[stoplooklisten]

"1 Cor 11:29-32 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep :

The context here is neglect of self-examination and confession and a misuse of communion / the Lord’s Supper / the Eucharist.

True Christians do not stop sinning.

Jesus said to “Be holy” and Jesus doesn’t ask for the impossible. Sinning shows disobedience and rebellion against Almighty God and a lack of faith. We need to repent of our sins and seek absolution from a Catholic priest. The Catholic priest is the one authorized to grant absolution.

The devils love excuses for sinning. Small sins easily lead to bigger sins. If we love Jesus and his sorrowful Passion, then we will seek to eliminate our sins as much as possible. Faith works by love.

 

[Tommy999]

Why do I need to go to a priest?

Catholics normally cite John 20:23 to support the need to confess to a priest. This authority was handed down from Jesus to the disciples, then to subsequent priests of the Early Church and beyond in a continuous chain of succession called ‘Holy Orders’, if I understand correctly.

My understanding is that if a priest is unavailable, a Catholic can confess directly to God and then go to a priest for absolution as soon as practical.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Priests are no longer needed under the New Covenant.

Hmm. The Bible’s New Testament says otherwise.

There were multiple types of priesthood under the Old Covenant (priesthood of Melchizedek, Levitical priesthood, the priesthood of people like Noah, Elijah and others who offered animal sacrificies, more).

There are multiple types of priesthood under the New Covenant (universal priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:5) and the special priesthood (that offers the sacrifice of the Mass, administers the Sacrament of Confession (John 20:23)).

 

[stoplooklisten]

Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them. As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes.

You appear to be referring to the “Farewell Discourse” given by Jesus Christ to the eleven Apostles on the occasion of the Last Supper after Judas had left to betray Jesus (John 14-17 following the events of John 13). The message authorizing “whose sins you forgive are forgiven” (John 21:23) was also given to an even more limited audience with Thomas being absent. Jesus set apart the Twelve Apostles early. After the death of Judas, a successor was appointed (Matthias - Acts 1:26). That succession of successors continues today in the bishops of the Catholic Church.

You are right about a promise of the Holy Spirit being given to this group. Jesus didn’t promise a New Testament but He did promise the Holy Spirit. That Holy Spirit is still an empowering force for the Church. Jesus says seven times in Revelation 2-3: “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches”. Jesus never promised to empower every disciple with everything. Jesus established Peter and the Church and promised to build upon that. Not everyone has every grace and gift of the spirit. We need each other.

In heaven, there are nine choirs of angels that include the ranks of archangels and angels as the two lowest ranks. The angels aren’t all equal. People won’t be all equal in heaven either. Jesus said to lay up treasure in heaven. Some will do that more than others.

The Apostles had more to do than preach the gospel. They needed to take bread and wine often and “do this in remembrance of Me” as Christ had commanded. They needed to hear confessions. Evidences for the sacrament of the confession, the sacrament of the Eucharist, the sacrament of Holy Orders for the ordination of bishops, priests and deacons are there in the records of the Early Church Fathers from the early centuries of the Church.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Again, there is no indication that John 20:23 is talking about confession.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit has been saying about the Sacrament of Confession in the many locations of the Catholic Church across 21 centuries. Mortal sins unto death need absolution. Venial sins should also be confessed.

 

[stoplooklisten]

If I go directly to God and not a priest, will God give me absolution for my sins?

James 5:16: Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

The epistle of James tells us to confess our sins to a person and to have that confession be accompanied by prayer. This confession of sins is associated with healing. Now, you don’t want to confess your sins to just anyone. You want to take care with it. You want to seek out a righteous person. Now, if you sin against a particular person (priest or non-priest), then you should go to that particular person and seek reconciliation with that person. But beyond that, it has been established that we confess our sins to a Catholic priest in the context of the Sacrament of Confession. You can try to do it another way but it wouldn’t be the way commanded in the Epistle of James. And, confessing your sins alone doesn’t carry with it the promise of healing.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Acts 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

Yes, that’s baptism of desire. Baptism is in a sense, a three part act. Desire-belief/actual water baptism/confirmation(Acts 8:14-17). Your sins are forgiven.

Here is the problem - you are still sinning after they are forgiven.

John 20:23 says Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained

In order for sins to be retained or remitted one must first HEAR them, yes?

 

[stoplooklisten]

He is saying (I have been given authority John 20:23) to declare because you believe in Christ, your sins are forgiven.

Hmm, that’s not what Jesus said to the lame man who was healed at the pool of Bethsaida (John 5). Jesus never told the person that they could sin without consequence or that their future sins would be forgiven. No, Jesus said “sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee.”

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee. (John 5:14)

Jesus: “Do not sin any more”

Note: These words of Jesus stand in contrast to the words of those who make excuses for sin and proclaim: “Everybody sins. (Everybody else is sinning. So don’t try to be sinless, don’t try to be holy. Allow yourself to sin a little.)”.

Q. What did Jesus say to the woman caught in the act of adultery who was nearly stoned to death (John 8)? A. “Go and sin no more.”

 

[stoplooklisten]

My apologizes, I really don’t get your point

Jesus spoke to the lame man whom he had healed at the pool of Bethsaida (John 5). Jesus said “sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee.”

Jesus never told the person that they could sin without consequence or that their future sins would be forgiven.

 

[Dorothy]

We do not know if when Judas was hanging he accepted in his last breath the grace of repentance that Jesus offered him.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Another verse: Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. (Mt 15:13)

Professing Christians can be uprooted.

 

[JonNC]

Right – and there is the language barrier. Catholicese and Protestantese often times cause us to talk past each other…when we are essentially saying the same things.

I number of years back, I had Serius radio before they merged with XM. I Often listened to EWTN, not ant Protestant station, in part because the Catholic lingo Was more familiar to me as a Lutheran.

 

[stoplooklisten]

I don’t see how you see true believers

I don’t know how you identify “true believers”. Who judges them? I once heard a Baptist pastor claim he would only baptize “true believers”. How could he know? The wheat and tares are growing together in the kingdom of God. It is angels who will remove the tares in the end. You are not an angel. Now is not the time for the separation. It would be great to be able to isolate in a pure Church with only “true believers”. I look forward to the hope of heaven and being saved and of not having deceived myself and of obtaining everlasting mercies. But, I still fear Gaod. “Nothing unclean” will center the City of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:27). Are you totally clean already? That’s one reason for a doctrine of purgatory. Getting cleaned up may not be instantaneous and it may not be comfortable. Some may die justified but still be unclean and in need of purging. Moreover, “let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall”. (1 Corinthians 10:12).

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears ought to hear. (Matthew 13:41-43)

Are you not familiar with the parable of the sower (also found in Matthew 13)? Some seed of the Word grows for a while and then withers away.

 

[stoplooklisten]

I don’t see how you see true believers

True believers need to persevere in faithfulness until the end of their lives just like Jesus Christ did. Jesus was tempted by the devil just like true believers will be. Jesus needed to stay faithful and endure much in order to accomplish Redemption. A servant is not above his master. Jesus suffered and endured. The same thing can be expected of Jesus’s disciples and “true believers”.

Christ humbled himself, being obedient to death on a cross. (Phil 2:8). “The servant is not greater than his Lord, the disciple is not above his master” (Matt 10:24). So, servants and disciples of Christ must be lowly, prepared to be despised and humbled. “He who endures to the end will be saved.”

 

[stoplooklisten]

I don’t see how you see true believers

How large is the faith of the true believers that you know? Can they cast out demons? Can they move mountains? Can they accomplish the impossible? Can it not be said that their faith is small at best?

Then the disciples approached Jesus in private and said, “Why could we not drive it out?” He said to them, “Because of your little faith. Amen, I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” (Matthew 17:19ff)

 

[Buzzard3]

when i was Non Catholic, i never bought into OSAS or once saved always saved. I tried to believe…but I saw too many scriptures that contradict it.

Same here. I became thoroughly disillusioned with non-Catholic theology when I was on that side of the fence. When I started studying Catholic theology, it was like stumbling upon a university after dropping out of kindergarten. Thank the Lord for the Catholic Church!

 

[Buzzard3]

What are the many scriptures that contradict OSAS

Here’s a few:
Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6 that future sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God.
Paul tells believers in Romans 6 that future sins can “lead to death”.

1John 2:3-5 says believers must obey his commandments to be in Christ - so if you believe but don’t obey the commandments, you can find yourself NOT in Christ.

 

[JonahJones]

Whenever I hear someone insist that you can lose your salvation by sinning, I always want to ask what kind of special baptism exists that makes a man sin no more, because I’d sign up for that in a heartbeat.

We will all sin from now until the day we die. If you can lose your salvation by sining, then we are all lost.

 

[ltwin]

Whenever I hear someone insist that you can lose your salvation by sinning, I always want to ask what kind of special baptism exists that makes a man sin no more, because I’d sign up for that in a heartbeat.

No reasonable Christian is advocating “sinless perfection” though, so I’m not sure why this is being brought up unless you’re confused.

We will all sin from now until the day we die.

But no one is claiming sinless perfection.

If you can lose your salvation by sining, then we are all lost.

If you sin and repent, then you will be saved. If you sin and keep on sinning, then that indicates willful disobedience and ultimately a lack of faith. True faith unites us to Christ, whose Spirit empowers us to live godly lives. Yes, we will fall into temptation and sin in this life, but we don’t have to be slaves to it. The blood of Christ breaks the power of sin over our lives.

 

[JonNC]

Whenever I hear someone insist that you can lose your salvation by sinning, I always want to ask what kind of special baptism exists that makes a man sin no more, because I’d sign up for that in a heartbeat.

We will all sin from now until the day we die. If you can lose your salvation by sining, then we are all lost.

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

The Spirit moves our hearts to repentance and confession, to receive the grace of forgiveness, renewed to do His will.
While we do not have the ability to do this without His prompting, we do have the free will to reject His grace, and the salvation it makes available to us.