Non- Catholic Christians: can you lose your salvation?

[Lenten_ashes]

This is where it becomes a bit hairy. I know people who love God, Ian. They pray. Some go to Church. They can quote the bible all day long. They recognize sin and have an intolerance for it – but not their own, habitual sins. They hang on to those and live like the world way too often. They would affirm everything on your list there. And they will tell you they are working on their sins, if pressed on the matter.

I’m not talking about folks who were introduced to Jesus a few months ago and lack any genuine roots in the faith. More like people who were introduced to Him in 1990 and still drink, do drugs, live like hell. End back in jail.

Of course God’s mercy is great. I hope to see all of them in heaven. We all sin. But I do have to wonder just how much is too much. My mother is a good protestant Christian. She seems to think these sort of folks are saved because they said a simple prayer and they meant it. I can only hope she is right. But I can not say it with confidence.

This is why I love the doctrine of purgatory and get the need for it. But that is another discussion for another thread.

 

[c4csp]

But catholics Lose their salvation with activities like masterbation or any particular mortal sin.
So every month or every week you Need a priest to confess to. I chose 1st john 1:9

If the sin is mortal then yes. Mortal sin requires 3 conditions, it is grave, you know it is grave, and you have deliberate consent. One needs to go to confession to be forgiven and “reinstated” with God to receive sanctifying grace. God still loves you just as much when you are in mortal sin but you cut the ties to Him so that makes it impossible for the flow of sanctifying grace to continue until you receive absolution. Now if a person is unrepentant of mortal sin and die, they are damned to hell. That means if they fornicate and are not sorry and do not feel any wrong was done then they are choosing hell by their free will. Now a person can die without going to confession if they were repentant of the mortal sin and wanted to go to confession but just didn’t make it(ex. they got hit by a bus before they could get to the church). God knows what is in our hearts and is a just judge. But we chose hell for ourselves, not God. So if one is a Christian and out fornicating and with no remorse then they are choosing Satan. We need to remember that God loves us so much that He gives us free will. Just as God allows to go on with committing that sin because of free will, when we chose Satan, God allows it and after death He is not going to jump in and rescue us. His love is so great, He lets us choose heaven or hell.

 

[lanman87]

This is where it becomes a bit hairy. I know people who love God, Ian. They pray. Some go to Church. They can quote the bible all day long. They recognize sin and have an intolerance for it – but not their own, habitual sins. They hang on to those and live like the world way too often. They would affirm everything on your list there. And they will tell you they are working on their sins, if pressed on the matter.

Yep, that is why we can’t judge the spiritual condition of others. We are all at different places and have different struggles. Some proudly wear the mantle of Christianity and yet embrace sinful lifestyles. Others love God and want to be holy and faithful, yet struggle with addiction or mental illness or PTSD. Ultimately, God knows all of our hearts and the motivation for our actions. All we humans can see is what people claim and the outward actions.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Another verse about losing salvation:

“Some, by rejecting conscience, have made a shipwreck of their faith.” (1 Timothy 1:19)

 

[stoplooklisten]

Another verse:

7 My people have their mind set on apostasy; though they call on God in unison, he shall not raise them up. (Hosea 11:7 NABRE)

7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: Though they called them to the most High, None at all would exalt him. (Hosea 11:7 KJV)

People can be unfaithful. They can backslide and apostasize. It’s sad but true.

 

[lanman87]

Just curious. How do Catholics reconcile 1 John 5:13 with the teaching that it is impossible to know you have eternal life (are saved)?

Clearly John says it is possible to know, and that is why he was writing his letter.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

1 John 5:13

We believe you can be totally assured and know it at the point of baptism – water/desire/blood. What you do with it from there and how you respond to God’s grace is up to you.

I think our beliefs are not that much different. We both believe in biblical election. And we both believe a person can have reasonable assurance of salvation. It’s the overly scrupulous who tend to have the issues.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Just curious. How do Catholics reconcile 1 John 5:13 with the teaching that it is impossible to know you have eternal life (are saved)?

Clearly John says it is possible to know, and that is why he was writing his letter.

1 John opens with a series of “if statements” which are essentially a series of tests to assess and evaluate whether our claim to salvation is justified. Who can be sure that they are getting a passing grade on all the tests?

“If we say that we have fellowship with Him while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie…” Some profess faith but walk in darkness and lie. (1 John 1:6)

I John concludes with a discussion of “sin unto death” and “sin not unto death”. All remain capable of sinning that “sin unto death”. No one has “lock-in” that prevents it. In the LORD"s prayer / Our Father, we continue to pray through all our days: Forgive us our debts. Lead us not into temptation. Now, we should grow in grace always. Growth in grace will mitigate our risk of falling into mortal sin.

Even in the last verse of 1 John, the audience is admonished to be on guard against idols. We can think we are worshipping the true god but instead we’ve invented an idol.

 

[stoplooklisten]

Saving faith needs to reside in the heart (Romans 10:9-10). Head faith is insufficient.

The heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

Do you know it? Human beings do not know the condition of human heart. God alone knows the condition of human hearts.

Wheat and tares are growing together in this world. Angels will make the separation. (Matthew 13)

 

[TULIPed]

I think our beliefs are not that much different. We both believe in biblical election. And we both believe a person can have reasonable assurance of salvation. It’s the overly scrupulous who tend to have the issues.

This. I think most of the rancor around these concepts (aside from a good friendly fireside debate over a glass or 2 of scotch) stem from poor catechesis - on both sides. (That and perhaps the way people actually live their lives - again, on both sides).

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Right – and there is the language barrier. Catholicese and Protestantese often times cause us to talk past each other…when we are essentially saying the same things.

 

[lanman87]

Do you know it? Human beings do not know the condition of human heart. God alone knows the condition of human hearts.

And yet, John says we can know.

 

[lanman87]

We believe you can be totally assured and know it at the point of baptism – water/desire/blood. What you do with it from there and how you respond to God’s grace is up to you.

And yet John was writing to established Christians, long after their baptism.

 

[stoplooklisten]

And yet, John says we can know.

Yes, we can have a firm assurance based on the tests in 1 John and based perhaps upon the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. As we grow in grace, apostasy becomes less likely.

However, the assurance tests of 1 John are not easy to pass. One is:

“We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brethren.” (1 John 3:14).

You’ve probably seen or heard the phrase: They will know that we are Christians by our love. It doesn’t say that we will know that we are Christians by our love. It says that others will know that we are Christians by our love. We may need to depend upon the testimony of others about how loving we are in order to confirm our assurance.

“Whoever does not love remains in death.” As stated previously, the Church contains a mixture of wheat and tares (Matthew 13). Some in the Church are loving and “passed from death to life”. Others may not be in the same condition.

Are you a loving person whose loving nature is recognized by others? I hope so. It’s great to be that way. BTW, I’m not always seen that way but I may express my love in ways not always seen or recognized.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Right, and they can KNOW they have salvation if they remain in the faith. Just as the moment they entered the faith…if they pick up their cross daily and live for Christ as He commanded.

You need to take the NT as a totality in order to get the full picture and understand what that particular verse means, imo.

 

[lanman87]

Right, and they can KNOW they have salvation if they remain in the faith. Just as the moment they entered the faith…if they pick up their cross daily and live for Christ as He commanded.

Thank you. TULIPed can answer better than me… but I believe that is the view of Preservation of the Saints that Reformed Theology teaches. With the caveat that Divine Grace not only brings the elect to faith but also causes them to persevere in the faith.

Knowledge of eternal life doesn’t come from past actions or future actions. But that on any given day I can “test myself” to see if I am of the faith. If that test is positive then I can “know I have eternal life”. If 10 years from now I’ve stopped believing and/or fell into unrepentant and ongoing sin then I have no basis to “know I have eternal life”.

 

[stoplooklisten]

But that on any given day I can “test myself” to see if I am of the faith.

Yes, but saving faith resides in the heart (Romans 10:9-10) and the human heart is deceitful so who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

You need to consider everything that God has said to be sure.

Here’s a few more from the epistle of 1 John to consider:

We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. (1 John 3:14)

If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (1 John 4:20-21)

You can test your own love or ask one of your brothers to evaluate your love.

We can have faith to move mountains but if we have not love, it profits us nothing.

 

[stoplooklisten]

You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. (Matt 5:13)

Disciples of Jesus Christ are called to be salt and light. But, Jesus teaches that the salt of the earth can become no longer good for anything but to be thrown out (and trampled).

 

[stoplooklisten]

@Benny12, thanks for the reply.

God know us better than we know ourselves.

Annanias and Sapphira were good, presumably baptized church members. They sold their real estate and gave much of the proceeds to the Apostles. But, they were deceitful and you know what Almighty God did to them (Acts 5:1-11).

 

[stoplooklisten]

I don’t see any indication their lost their salvation.

“…the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:52)

No one becomes incorruptible until they are first dead.

Have you not been saying that the “genuinely saved” person becomes incorruptible or immune from mortal sin?

If we want to cease from sin, then we need to suffer first. (1 Peter 4:1)

If we are capable of small sins, then we are also capable of large sins. Mortal sin or a “sin unto death” (1 John 5:16) will separate a person from Almighty God.