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Lampo
Guest
Please feel free to do so anytime. My Catholic understanding can always be deepened by those that are better educated in the Faith. Thanks.
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justasking4
Guest
You are again reading into the passage what is not there. Look at the context again. Is the context one of prayer?
Secondly, do any of the other writers of the NT use this passage as prayer to Mary or even Jesus?
Just because Mary may have prayed for the disciples while she was alive does not mean you are to pray to her now nor do the apostles ever say we should.
Not so. There is no writing in the NT that comes even close to supporting your assertion that the disciples knew anything of praying to Mary.
You are reading catholic doctrine and beleifs into what the apostles taught on this. None of them ever exhorted any prayers to dead Christians. The only prayers that are appropiate are to be to God.
Quote:
Where has the catholic church interpreted binding and loosing?
What the catholic church does is to forbid married men from being bishops. The mere fact they are married disqualifies them. This is an outright rejection of the teaching and command of Scripture.
The mere fact you have a doctrine- practice that nullifies the clear teaching of the qualifications of leadership shows your church makes up its own criteria that is not grounded in Scripture.
I recommend you study the Scriptures more in context and then compare that with catholic doctrine and parctices. I recommend you throw your anti Scriptural bigoted glasses in the trash.
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justasking4
Guest
What is the context of the passage you quote?
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Lampo
Guest
That has already been answered by others more articulate than I.
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guanophore
Guest
Only one form of prayer is “petition” (going to God with requests). This passage represents a petition being brought to Jesus by Mary.
Yes, this is what John is writing about here. This passage represents the Apostolic Teaching that Mary eternally advises us “do whatever He tells you”.
I think you have this perspective because you reject the portion of Apostolic teaching that is not in the scriptures.
Not so. There is no writing in the NT that comes even close to supporting your assertion that the disciples knew anything of praying to Mary.
You are reading catholic doctrine and beleifs into what the apostles taught on this. None of them ever exhorted any prayers to dead Christians. The only prayers that are appropiate are to be to God.
Quote:
Where has the catholic church interpreted binding and loosing?
What the catholic church does is to forbid married men from being bishops. The mere fact they are married disqualifies them. This is an outright rejection of the teaching and command of Scripture.
The mere fact you have a doctrine- practice that nullifies the clear teaching of the qualifications of leadership shows your church makes up its own criteria that is not grounded in Scripture.
I recommend you study the Scriptures more in context and then compare that with catholic doctrine and parctices. I recommend you throw your anti Scriptural bigoted glasses in the trash.
J
justasking4
Guest
Here is what i was referring to that you wrote: "The deeper teaching reads like this, ‘He who hears me through your mouth will never hear anything but the absolute truth’.
I don’t see how CC#96 applies to your statement. It says nothing about "‘He who hears me through your mouth will never hear anything but the absolute truth’.
What you are saying here opens up all kinds of issues. For one, does #96 mean all that the church has taught and supported for the past 2000 years been under the “influence of the Holy Spirit”?
This says nothing about infalliblity. In fact Jesus is not even addressing the church here but His disciples for a particular mission.
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onenow1
Guest
Hi, All
I just wonder if some fokls think Mary sent Jesus off to day care.five days a week ? The other thing is, Mary having a the ultimate relationship with Jesus, must be another thorn in his brow from those who do not consider her as being the first disciple of Jesus and of course lets not forget Joseph !
gotta run.
Peace, OneNow1
I just wonder if some fokls think Mary sent Jesus off to day care.five days a week ? The other thing is, Mary having a the ultimate relationship with Jesus, must be another thorn in his brow from those who do not consider her as being the first disciple of Jesus and of course lets not forget Joseph !
gotta run.
Peace, OneNow1
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guanophore
Guest
It is the other way around, ja4. I know that the Scripture was written by, for, and about Catholics, and therefore, perfectly represents Catholic doctrine. I also know that those who are in Christ are “alive forevermore”.
" Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world.” John 11:25-27
If you will not accept the Teaching of Jesus through the Catholic Church, at least accept what the scriptures say. Jesus corrected the Pharisees for this wrong belief. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
How would it damage your faith, if you were to accept the words of Jesus that those who belong to Him are alive in heaven?
Prayers to the saints is an Apostolic practice. I am sure, when the disciples wanted something from Mary while she was here, they just went up and asked her. They did not find it necessary to stop this practice after her passing.
This assertion is not even scriptural! It also reflects a narrow understanding of prayer. It just means to “ask” or “petition”. I just read a court document yesterday that used the words “the plaintiffs therefore pray the court…”. It is a petition.
Simon makes such a petition to Peter:
Acts 8:23-24
24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”
This probably needs to go another thread.
You have it backwards, ja4. The Church ordains those to the bishopric from those that are called to be celibate. This way, as the NT describes their interests will not be divided in caring for the flock.
This is a negative way to look at things. If they are called to be a bishop, they will also be called to the celibate life. If you really desire to become a Cathlic bishop, ja4, it is still possible. If your wife passes away, and you accept the vow of celibacy, then you are also eligible. There re many commands in scripture that are related to the culture and time in which they were written. We see this also about the practice of slavery. The church does not encourage the practice of slavery, though it did exist in the first century, and there are some instructions about it in the NT.
This is not a problem for Catholics, since we know that the doctrine and practices all preceeded the scripture. Scripture reflects them, but is not the foundation for them.
I love the Scripture, ja4, and though I don’t ever think I was “anti” scripture, there was a long period of time when I was fairly ignorant of it, and did not read it daily. It was study of the scripture that led be back to the Church that Jesus founded.I recommend you study the Scriptures more in context and then compare that with catholic doctrine and parctices. I recommend you throw your anti Scriptural bigoted glasses in the trash.
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guanophore
Guest
Jesus taught nothing but the Truth - no error. He commissioned His Apostles to “teach them to obey all that I have commanded”. Now, if the Apostles take what came from Jesus and pass it on, how did it become frought with error?
The HS protects the Church from teaching error in faith and morals. however, there are many things in the last 2000 years that don’t fall into that category. The wearing of veils in church, for example.
Do you imagine that what Jesus was teaching the disciples about the Kingdom somehow became invalid at the close of the “mission”? Do you think He was not training them in righteousness, so that they could be able to lead when He departed?
You have already admitted that you agree with the Catholic doctrine that the HS was given to the disciples to guide them after Jesus ascended. Are you going back on that?
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Lampo
Guest
What happens if they don’t agree with the teachings of their church after this careful study of the Scriptures? Move on to the next church? Start there own?
Based on what? I assume you will say Scripture, so I’ll go ahead and ask: Based on who’s interpretation of Scripture? Your (already admitted by you) fallible interpretation?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
The only requirement Jesus gave in this area is that the greatest among you must become the least by serving the others. Our priests, bishops and successive popes serve the Body of Christ - The Church. They put themselves into the service of others by giving up their entire lives and desires of the flesh for The Church just as Jesus did. If one is not fit to lead by servicing and sacrificing their own personal needs for God then one is not qualified to lead through the ministry of service. You speak as if leadership is some kind of high paying career path or something. Do you have any idea how many hours of service the typical Catholic priest or religious person puts in for God per week? Hint - its a full time job and most never really get to retire since they are often called to help and assist all their lives.
So your question makes about as much sense as asking you “when did you stop beating you’re wife?”.
Where in scripture did Jesus give authority to anyone to protest and rebel against Church Teaching and Church authority?
What do you mean by “true” leadership? Do you mean the Pope or do you mean all the individual members sitting in the pews at protestant services who can change the leadership anytime they change their minds - as if salvation is a democratic process subject to majority rule?
Why even have leadership if it is not subject to the mandate of obedience and when the Protestant tradition is to protest and rebel against anyone who tries to assert authority?
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Why do you seem to have such animosity for lay female leadership? Are you some kind of macho guy who abhors the idea of a strong woman with authority and leadership charisma?
James
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justasking4
Guest
Huh???/
What are you referring to here? I’m addressing prayer to Mary and not church leadership.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Please don’t play dumb and try to act as if you don’t know what I am talking about. In this discussion you have cluster bombed the entire thread with a wild array of disingenuous and unsubstantiated accusations under a pretense of inquiry. Why can’t you admit that you abhor the notion of Mary being a model for the laity form of leadership and a natural leader within the Church who is not a priest?Huh???/
Come on JTA4 - we are all adults here. It’s time to get out of the sandbox and start being adult. We have given you enormous time to help you better understand Catholic teaching and all you are doing is playing a rope-a-dope game.
Leading in prayer and setting a model of virtue by example is certainly a leadership role.
Learn some virtue by following Mary’s lead and show some respect as well.
James
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justasking4
Guest
Are you usually this condensending in your repsonses? I don’t have this power of reading minds over the internet as you and others seem to possess. I wish i did because it would save a lot of typing.
i don’t think of her as a leader as such and the scriptures don’t either.
If what you say is true then why dialogue with anyone if all you need to do is read the catechism to know what the catholic church teaches? What’s the point for you to dialogue with me?
Do any of the writers of the NT use her as example of leadership in their writings?
Huh? Who have i disrespected and what have i said?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Your insincerity and circular arguments are condescending to the sensibilities of everyone here who is trying to help you understand Catholic Teaching and the truth. Your 3,000 posts in these forums is a telling track record of your “hit and run anti-catholic sentiment” that is well established. Why do you come in here wasting every-one’s time as well as your own? Do you not have anything better to do with your time and your life? Do you know its a sin to waste people’s time? Do you care?
Don’t you get tired of the same old sequence of attacking The Church’s Marian doctrine, purgatory, traditions, celibacy of priests, church sacraments, papal authority and infallability of the Church? These things are immutable. It’s clear that you are not here to learn Catholicism or to even consider converting. You are here to make yourself feel relevant and to attack The Church and to entice people away from the Catholic teaching. We constantly re-explain to you why the Church teaches what it does and you always come back to a fundamentalist argument that “scripture does not teach that” even when we inform you that scripture does not teach itself -The Church teaches. We also prove to you that the teaching is ALWAYS backed by scripture.
The Catholic Church REJECTS outright the notion of sola scriptura and the infallability of your own private interpretation over the 2,000 year old infallible authority, pedigree and scholarship of The Church. You just don’t get it do you? The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ - you are attacking Jesus when you mock The Church. There will be a day of accounting for that in spite of the error in thinking you are safe behind the ‘Once Save Always Saved’ Protestant tradition of erroneous teaching.
Nothing you can say or do is going to change the Church’s teaching. Don’t you get that yet? So why are you here? All you are doing is spreading heresy and confusion and trying to undermine true teaching and get people to come to your way of thinking. Yet you have noting substantially new to offer and just parrot the same ol nonsense Luther got excommunicated for 500 years ago. In essence you are arguing yourself deeper and deeper into the pit and wasting every-one’s time as well.
Wasting our time with insincere rhetoric is REAL theft since it steals resources and our individual time from volunteers here who could be spending the time with their families or others who are sincerely looking for answers. We Catholic Apologists are not here to entertain you nor to be your playmate so please stop wasting our time.
James
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onenow1
Guest
Hi, ja4
Here’s the answer to all your questions I pray.
2 Peter 1
15. And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
Handing over the Bishoporic to Linus. Apostolic succession.
ja4 Please don’t steal from Peter to pay Paul.
Luke 10: 16 Is like a bannana ja4 when we peel it back there’s more to be had, then meets the eye.
Peace, OneNow1
PS. Might help you to reflect a little on John 21: 25.
Here’s the answer to all your questions I pray.
2 Peter 1
15. And I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.
Handing over the Bishoporic to Linus. Apostolic succession.
ja4 Please don’t steal from Peter to pay Paul.
Luke 10: 16 Is like a bannana ja4 when we peel it back there’s more to be had, then meets the eye.
Peace, OneNow1
PS. Might help you to reflect a little on John 21: 25.
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submittedjoy
Guest
The Bible says in I Th. 5:3 “For when they say, peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them…” I’m all for peace but not at the cost of compromise with doctrinal truth. The Anti-Christ will be a man of peace (at first) he will pull all the nations together. His second hand man (the False Prophet) will be a religous leader like the world has never known. He/she will unite all religious into one based on what they “have in common”… it will all seem great at first… but remember again… The Bible says in II Co. 11:14 “Satan himself is transformed into an Angel of Light.” We should also try the spirits to see if they are from God… {I John 4:1} Read you Bible for yourself and watch and pray for our Lord will come in an hour that we think not. {Luke 12:40}
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guanophore
Guest
"CentralFLJames:
CentralFlJames has got your number, ja4. You have, indeed, been cluster bombing on this thread, using it as a platform to make your usual array of accusations against Catholicism. Your posts indicate that you are not here to learn about Catholicism, but to use CAF as a place to evangelize people to Bible Christianity (according to Pope justasking4) and to attack Catholic beliefs.
Well, you have a contaminated idea about leadership, then. Mary is the one who contributed primarily to Jesus’ human development, and it is her leadership and parenting the brought HIm to be the man that He was.
As a forum supporter, I have made a commitment that I will not allow one single poisonous post of yours go uncontested.
Yes, Luke calls her “the mother of my Lord”. This is how she was known to the Apostles and the first disciples.
Jesus, the HS, Mary, the Communion of Saints, Catholics, and all seekers who come to CAF to learn about Catholicism.
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onenow1
Guest
Quote= OneNow 1 I think you attack what you do not know.
Was Jesus lying when he said to love your neighbor even as I have loved you.
The bible also says this.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. And many more vs’s of a like kind.
SMT; you don’t have to worry just follow luke 12: 43.and be blessed.
Peace,OneNow1
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