J
justasking4
Guest
With somewhere around a billion catholics i figure one might know…
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J
justasking4
Guest
Good question. Can you give me a couple of traditions not in the Scriptures that the Christian church taught during this time?
K
KJK80
Guest
Well, “Christian’s” are lumped up as one on the world economy of religion… but I think it’s estimated there’s about 2.1 billion Christian’s… if you say there’s a billion Catholic’s, that leaves over 1 billion Protestant’s or Christian’s, whatever they wanna be called–no?With somewhere around a billion catholics i figure one might know…
Seems pretty even numbers to me!
L
Lampo
Guest
Might know what? A list? Again, there is no list.With somewhere around a billion catholics i figure one might know…
L
Lampo
Guest
Good question. During those 400 or so years without the Bible, did the Christians adhere to the doctrine of sola scriptura?
L
Lampo
Guest
You sound unsure. Let me help you. He and the Apostles used the Alexandrian Canon; also known as the Septuagint. The Septuagint includes the 7 books of the Old Testament that were taken out by Martin Luther in 1517.
L
Lampo
Guest
Yes I can. If I do, will you say something to the effect of, “Where is that in Scripture?”
J
justasking4
Guest
Actually i would expect it to be something to be “outside” scripture. No basis in Scripture.
J
justasking4
Guest
One of the problems with claiming that the Septuagint was the translation Jesus and the apostles used is that we don’t know exactly what the Septuagint contained completely. Last i looked we only know what the Septuagint looked like only the 4th century.
Secondly we do know that the Jews of the time and throughout their history in the OT never considered these books inspired-inerrant. It was to the Jews that God entrusted His oracles. See Romans 3:2
L
Lampo
Guest
I’m flabbergasted! Your history suggests that you would respond they way I imagined in the previous post. So if I give you, how many, two, examples of Sacred Tradition, you will not respond with something to the effect of, “That’s not in Scripture?” If I do, will you enroll in your nearest RCIA and convert to Catholicism at Easter in 2009?
J
justasking4
Guest
Actually we need to have a deep discussion on Sacred Traditions. There is so much to discuss and i think it would be profitable for everyone. Would you agree?
L
Lampo
Guest
I kinda like my challenge to you instead.
L
Lampo
Guest
When do you think your first post on this topic was on these forums? What month and year?
G
guanophore
Guest
What makes you say that? Just because I don’t consider their contents inerrant does not mean I see no value in them. It was a greek lexicon that got me into seminary, and learning to read and translate the NT from the Greek. The Gk. lexicon changed my life!
If they believe like that, why can’t they be saved too?
God’s mercy is mindblowing, to be sure. What also blows my mind is that people cannot recognize here that there is temporal punishment for sin. Although Jesus promised the thief eternal life, He did not take him when He left. He left him there on the cross to suffer, even let the Romans break his legs. He did not save him from the temporal punishment of his sins.
I am baffled about the standard you are creating here. Since both came from the same Source, why would they not reflect one another? The two were never meant to be separated. The fact that you keep trying to separate them is what creates the problem with understanding.
Guess you need to look again! Why would you choose a canon formed by those that rejected Jesus, rather than one chosen by those that accepted Him? Who do you think preserved the Septuagint? Gentiles?
Did you realize that these were rejected because they have so much in them about Christ?
I am not sure, but I know it has been eating at him for a couple of years. He just can’t walk away from it.
I never saw anyone with such a passionate attachment to the “speculations of men”.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Do you know how silly it is to characterise a question as an argument?Do you know how absolutely silly this argument is?
Ahem, what about the thief on the cross who made his declaration just before he died?Makes your argument kind of weak…
Of course just saying it doesn’t get you into Heaven. That is purposterous.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:20-22 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
It is those who are sincere in their declaration. And only God knows who they are. But if a man, as much as we humans would hate to admit it, commits murder - cheats on his wife - or even molests a child repents and believes in God and IS SINCERE he will be saved. For our God is a forgiving God (just look at what He did on the cross), thankfully He is nothing like the rest of us who can hold a grudge until the end of time should it suit us.
If you knew your theology you would know that the thief on the cross received a baptism of desire out of true repentance and never thought to sin again and knew he had only a few hours of life left at most. He did not believe in the man made doctrine of “once saved always saved”. The thief never heard the false teachings of Luther to tell us to SIN BOLDLY and in confidence because “Jesus Saves” and we should not be afraid to put God’s saving grace to the test like so many Protestant’s believe since its impossible for a true believer to be tinged by sin if one truly believes greater than he believes he sins.
I agree with Matthew 7:21. Those outside of the Catholic Church who are Christian in name only and do not obey Christ’s commandments to eat of His body and who scorn the teachings of “faith with works” and who scorn obedience to His Church and Christ’s representative (His Vicar) are in the crowd who call Jesus “Lord Lord”. Few of these unless they loved profoundly and and did not commit any grave sins from the day of their baptism will not ever enter the Kingdom. But disobeying Jesus’ direct commandments and being disobedient to The Church and Christ’s authority on earth are grave sins. So its impossible to be sincere in an idle profession of faith while one continues to willfully disobeys Christ daily. That is holding a grudge against God and Church and puts man’s teachings above God’s (and even goes against simple common sense). No, none of these are sincere in action and words and are only giving The Lord lip service…
James
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CentralFLJames
Guest
This interpretation is completely unscriptural. When Jesus forgave sins he always admonished “avoid this sin again”. Salvation is not a license to sin. Salvation is something that must be worked out daily. Each and every time a person falls they must truly repent, ask for forgiveness and do acts of penance or at least desire to repent with God’s help. Catholics can get immediate conditional forgiveness by praying an act of contrition and then going as soon as possible to confession where a priest who has been duly ordained through the apostolic succession may administer the rites of forgiveness. Catholics also have all lessor sins (venial) forgiven as a result of obeying Christ’s commandment to “eat my body” when receiving Eucharist. But no one may receive Eucharist while in a state of grave sin or they commit a terrible sacrilege that will condemn them. This is why receiving Eucharist is a visible state of one’s communion with God and why Protestants are NOT in communion with nor in accord with Jesus.
You are starting to sound like a Catholic here who believes in imparted over time grace rather than the instant fix imputed grace that Protestants believe in. Are you making a mistake here and are you out of school with Luther and other Protestants or is the Holy Spirit finally starting to awaken your inner senses to the truth we have been giving you?
It is true that to commit a grave sin one must do so as one of three conditions:
- its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter;
- it must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense;
- it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent
But this brings up an interesting 2nd question. To be saved must a man be in proper mind to “fully believe” that he is saved? Or is a man who is mentally ill and unable to truly believe and profess that with conviction not saved?
James
J
justasking4
Guest
You have mocked my use of them before.
What did they teach in seminary? i don’t get the impression from your posts that Scripture was a major discipline.
There is a difference between believing and trusting. Demons believe in God but they are either unwilling or incapable of trusting God. It could also be that salvation is not offered to fallen angels but only to men.
J
justasking4
Guest
This is not true. He forgave the paralyzed man in Luke 5:18-26 without admonishing him not to sin again.
Was this man completely forgiven at this moment when Jesus forgave him?
I agree with most of what you write you. However the idea of penance i.e. a person confesses sins to a priest and is forgiven after performing a religious devotion or duty is not a biblical concept.
Will a catholic still have to go to purgatory for these sins?
Where dd Jesus or His apostles in their writings put these speciifc qualifacations on Christians before they could the Lord’s supper?
Quote:
Can you give me an example of this from a prostestant perspective?
No mistake but showing what the scriptures teach.
J
justasking4
Guest
The scripture certainly tells us that a man must comprehend that he is a sinner, needs to repent and believe in Christ to be saved. A person can doubt (which can be caused by a number of factors) and still be saved. However the longer one follows Christ and matures in Him will be less doubful. 2 Peter 1:2-11 is an excellent teaching on to gain assurance by following the pattern Peter lays out…
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
You don’t have a proper understanding of scripture since you have not received the proper teaching. This is why one can not take a blind eye view of scripture without The Church’s tradition and teaching. Your personal interpretation gives rise to the impossible condition of a scriptural contradiction that you can not harmonize while embracing the error and false teaching of sola scriptura. Scripture does not teach itself - The Church teaches.
Just because the the author of Luke 5 does not give details of every aspect of this healing account does not mean that this was all that was said or implied. Its very clear that the paralytic disorder is linked to sin (itself a profound metaphor for how sin cripples us in “the whole person”). This account should compel all humans out of a natural sense of gratitude to never wilfully sin again or ever want to return back to a crippled condition. So, even though there are no explicit recorded words here about not sinning again we can assume that the implicit message here is: ‘your sin cripples you so I come to heal you. Now walk fully again as a man, give glory and thanks to God and sin no more least you return to being a cripple’.
Note too in this account that it was the man’s FRIENDS who delivered him to Christ for healing. This shows us the power of prayer and assistance that our spiritual friends can bring us by helping to carry us when we are crippled by sin or affliction to God when they are unable to do so of their own accord. Ultimately though it is Jesus who carries us all and He who draws us to Himself for healing. We are all just instruments of His will and unworthy objects here to manifest God’s glory and love.
Here are a few scriptures that tell us to avoid sin:
John 8:10-11 (woman caught in adultery)
Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”
Hebrews 10:26-27
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.
Romans 8:12-13
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Again, this comes about as a result of a naive understanding of scripture. The root of all sin is pride; its antidote is humility. Confessing one’s sins to God’s appointed representative is thoroughly biblical, and calls for tremendous humility. The priest does not act on his own, He acts in the name of God and on behalf of His Church, administering God’s forgiveness (absolution). The sacrament of Confession wipes away our sins, increases sanctifying grace in our souls, and reunites us with Christ and His Church. The Church is the extension of Christ’s incarnation, and that extension takes place through the sacraments".
Read the following for scriptural support for this - but its also in Holy Tradition:
Leviticus 4:13-21 - “priests shall make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven”
Leviticus 5:14-26 - (Sin offering brought to the Old Testament priests, who make atonement for sinners’ forgiveness.)
See also: - Leviticus 4:27-25, Leviticus 5:5, Numbers 5
Leviticus 5:14-26 - (Public confession with animal sacrifice)
Numbers 5:6-7 - “man … commits a fault … he shall confess the wrong he has done”
Matthew 3:6 - “baptized by him … as they acknowledged their sins”
Acts 19:18 - “believers came forward and openly acknowledged their former practices”
James 5:16 - “confess your sin to one another … that you may be healed.”
See also: - Leviticus 26:39-42, Psalms 32:3-5, Proverbs 28:13, Mark 1:5
Jesus gives his power to forgive sins to His priests
Matthew 16:19 - (Jesus gives the apostles the power to bind and loose sins)
Matthew 18:18 - whatever you bind and loose on earth, so it is in heaven
John 20:22 - If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained.
John 20:23 - After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. (recall Genesis 2:7)
2 Corinthians 5:17-20 - “God … has reconciled us to himself … given us the ministry of reconciliation”
James 5:14-15 - “presbyters of the church … pray over him … he will be forgiven” (prayer of presbyters forgives sin)
See also: - Luke 22:29-30, James 5:16
More here
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James
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