non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[CentralFLJames]

Will a catholic still have to go to purgatory for these sins?

Any person who is not absolutely 100% pure (free of all sin and all debts owed for forgiven sins) at the time of death and is not condemned to hell by dieing impenetent in grave sin (the one unforgivable sin against the HS) will have to go to purgatory. We hold in faith that there are exceptions when Jesus overshadows a soul that has His special favor at the instant of death with extraordinary divine grace that purges all traces of venial sin as well as tendencies to repeat forgiven sin (an appetite for sin - kind of like an addiction). We believe that Jesus has given us special devotionals through His Church that have promises of final contrition (such as the Divine Mercy, Sacred Heart of Jesus and Immaculate Heart of Mary devotionals) that are extended life-long devotional prayers and acts of devotion to Jesus.

So it depends on how much true repentance and penance one has done in life for their sins if this is sufficient to gain heaven instantly at death. We generally believe that God is so profoundly holy that even a trace of desire for sin is enough to make us feel “naked” and shameful and unpresentable before God’s profound holines (just like Adam in the garden when He felt naked when he sinned and tried to hide). But purgatory rather than being seen as punishment is best seen as an act of God’s Mercy. God gives us purgatory to permit the soul to cleanse itself of the smallest taint of imperfection so that it may present itself with confidence before God without trembling and feeling unworthy in its less than perfect state of purity. It is Jesus though who makes it even possible to be forgiven for the eternal debt owed for our sins. And it is Jesus that makes it possible to even have the Mercy of Purgatory as a way to make us perfectably presentable to God the Father if we are in need of additional spiritual perfection where we did not fully cooperate with God’s salvific grace while alive. The souls in purgatory are joyful in the certainty of their salvation but are in spiritual pain in the absolute certitude of God (since the veil is removed at death) and pine to be in full communion with The Holy God.

Where dd Jesus or His apostles in their writings put these speciifc qualifacations on Christians before they could the Lord’s supper?

Again, the scriptures do not tell us every aspect of Jesus’ teaching or the Apostolic teaching. We have oral tradtion as well as teaching. But here are some scripture verses I can point you to:
1 Corinthians 10:21 - “cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons”
1 Corinthians 11:23-29 - “whoever eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (receiving the Eucharist unworthily makes us guilty of his Body and Blood)

Can you give me an example of this from a prostestant perspective?

I don’t want to repeat the errors of Protestant teaching here but its generally well understood that Protestants believe that error that God imputes all His saving grace in one instant and there is nothing more that a “believer” must do to “be saved”.

I am exceedingly pleased that you do not subscribe to this nonsense since as know from common sense that its wrong. So you are correct to note that such a thing is utterly unbiblical since no man’s salvation is guaranteed if one does not cooperate with God’s grace daily and work with God to the very end. Jesus can toss us the life saver but we must hold on to it for dear life and not toss it away.

We Christians are all sinners who were slaves to sin just like the Jews were in bondage to Pharaoh. The Jews had to face 40 years of struggle and hardships in the dessert of life before they could reach the Promised Land. Some did not make it and rebelled against Moses and some complained and were chastised or even put to death by their own fellows under actions of law (holding sins bound). Some were disobedient and were slain by their enemies (e.g. taking spoils of war and being slain by God withdrawing His protection) ALL sinned and many repented and persevered to reach The Promised Land. But God rained down His Manna (prefiguring Eucharist) to nourish them on the journey and made them into “a people”.

So too we Christians must persevere to reach The Promised Land (God’s Kingdom in Heaven). If we stumble, fall away or stray from the main leadership and Body (The Church) we must stand up, get back to the fold and “walk the walk” every step of the way - or find a friend who will help carry us when we are to weak to stay in the flock.

James

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3510049]
Originally Posted by justasking4
This is not true. He forgave the paralyzed man in Luke 5:18-26 without admonishing him not to sin again.
Was this man completely forgiven at this moment when Jesus forgave him?

CentralFLJames
You don’t have a proper understanding of scripture since you have not received the proper teaching. This is why one can not take a blind eye view of scripture without The Church’s tradition and teaching. Your personal interpretation gives rise to the impossible condition of a scriptural contradiction that you can not harmonize while embracing the error and false teaching of sola scriptura. Scripture does not teach itself - The Church teaches.

I’m confused when you and others claim the scriptures don’t teach. When you read the scriptures on your own and you learn something could it be said that the scriptures “taught” you since learning is an aspect of being taught?

Keep in mind that even nature teaches us.

Just because the the author of Luke 5 does not give details of every aspect of this healing account does not mean that this was all that was said or implied. Its very clear that the paralytic disorder is linked to sin (itself a profound metaphor for how sin cripples us in “the whole person”). This account should compel all humans out of a natural sense of gratitude to never wilfully sin again or ever want to return back to a crippled condition. So, even though there are no explicit recorded words here about not sinning again we can assume that the implicit message here is: ‘your sin cripples you so I come to heal you. Now walk fully again as a man, give glory and thanks to God and sin no more least you return to being a cripple’.

Interesting speculation. However, it still is true that Jesus did not in every case tell someone who He forgave to sin no more. We can only really go by what was written.

Note too in this account that it was the man’s FRIENDS who delivered him to Christ for healing. This shows us the power of prayer and assistance that our spiritual friends can bring us by helping to carry us when we are crippled by sin or affliction to God when they are unable to do so of their own accord. Ultimately though it is Jesus who carries us all and He who draws us to Himself for healing. We are all just instruments of His will and unworthy objects here to manifest God’s glory and love.

Here are a few scriptures that tell us to avoid sin:

John 8:10-11 (woman caught in adultery)
Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Romans 8:12-13
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

I agree. We should do what we can to avoid sin at all costs.

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3510049]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I agree with most of what you write you. However the idea of penance i.e. a person confesses sins to a priest and is forgiven after performing a religious devotion or duty is not a biblical concept.

CentralFLJames
Again, this comes about as a result of a naive understanding of scripture. The root of all sin is pride; its antidote is humility. Confessing one’s sins to God’s appointed representative is thoroughly biblical, and calls for tremendous humility. The priest does not act on his own, He acts in the name of God and on behalf of His Church, administering God’s forgiveness (absolution). The sacrament of Confession wipes away our sins, increases sanctifying grace in our souls, and reunites us with Christ and His Church. The Church is the extension of Christ’s incarnation, and that extension takes place through the sacraments".

Keep in mind that what you describe here i.e. “The priest does not act on his own, He acts in the name of God and on behalf of His Church, administering God’s forgiveness (absolution). The sacrament of Confession wipes away our sins, increases sanctifying grace in our souls, and reunites us with Christ and His Church” is something not found in the Scriptures. Even with the priests of the OT we do not find any confession of sin to them and some kind of absolution given. Men confessed their sins directly to God.

Read the following for scriptural support for this - but its also in Holy Tradition:
Leviticus 4:13-21 - “priests shall make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven”
Leviticus 5:14-26 - (Sin offering brought to the Old Testament priests, who make atonement for sinners’ forgiveness.)
See also: - Leviticus 4:27-25, Leviticus 5:5, Numbers 5
Leviticus 5:14-26 - (Public confession with animal sacrifice)
Numbers 5:6-7 - “man … commits a fault … he shall confess the wrong he has done”

In all these passages there is no person going to one of these priests performing these rites and asking for forgiveness or recieving absolution.

Matthew 3:6 - “baptized by him … as they acknowledged their sins”
Acts 19:18 - “believers came forward and openly acknowledged their former practices”
James 5:16 - “confess your sin to one another … that you may be healed.”
See also: - Leviticus 26:39-42, Psalms 32:3-5, Proverbs 28:13, Mark 1:5

Excellent passages. Did you note that not one of them is a confession to a priest for forgiveness or absolution?

Jesus gives his power to forgive sins to His priests
Matthew 16:19 - (Jesus gives the apostles the power to bind and loose sins)
Matthew 18:18 - whatever you bind and loose on earth, so it is in heaven
John 20:22 - If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained.
John 20:23 - After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. (recall Genesis 2:7)

There is a lot here that would need pages to respond to. Is there any passage in place of the NT where we see any apostle hearing confession, absolving a person of their sins or giving some kind of penance to perform for forgiveness?

2 Corinthians 5:17-20 - “God … has reconciled us to himself … given us the ministry of reconciliation”

In context, with whom the reconcilation needed?

James 5:14-15 - “presbyters of the church … pray over him … he will be forgiven” (prayer of presbyters forgives sin)

Here is the passage:
14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Where in these verses do we see the elder forgiving the person?

See also: - Luke 22:29-30, James 5:16
More here

I looked up Luke 22:29-30 and i don’t see what that has to do with what we are discussing. Can you clarify?

[continued]

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3510052]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Will a catholic still have to go to purgatory for these sins?

CentralFLJames
Any person who is not absolutely 100% pure (free of all sin and all debts owed for forgiven sins) at the time of death and is not condemned to hell by dieing impenetent in grave sin (the one unforgivable sin against the HS) will have to go to purgatory.

This statement contradicts what the great apostle wrote in Colossians 2: 13-14----
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

When Christ died His death covered all our sins. He took the penalty for all of them. This is why you don’t see the concept of purgatory in the Scriptures. Even catholic theologians concede this.

We hold in faith that there are exceptions when Jesus overshadows a soul that has His special favor at the instant of death with extraordinary divine grace that purges all traces of venial sin as well as tendencies to repeat forgiven sin (an appetite for sin - kind of like an addiction). We believe that Jesus has given us special devotionals through His Church that have promises of final contrition (such as the Divine Mercy, Sacred Heart of Jesus and Immaculate Heart of Mary devotionals) that are extended life-long devotional prayers and acts of devotion to Jesus.

So it depends on how much true repentance and penance one has done in life for their sins if this is sufficient to gain heaven instantly at death. We generally believe that God is so profoundly holy that even a trace of desire for sin is enough to make us feel “naked” and shameful and unpresentable before God’s profound holines (just like Adam in the garden when He felt naked when he sinned and tried to hide). But purgatory rather than being seen as punishment is best seen as an act of God’s Mercy. God gives us purgatory to permit the soul to cleanse itself of the smallest taint of imperfection so that it may present itself with confidence before God without trembling and feeling unworthy in its less than perfect state of purity.

How is this “purification process” done in purgatory?

It is Jesus though who makes it even possible to be forgiven for the eternal debt owed for our sins.

True

And it is Jesus that makes it possible to even have the Mercy of Purgatory as a way to make us perfectably presentable to God the Father if we are in need of additional spiritual perfection where we did not fully cooperate with God’s salvific grace while alive.

Jesus has nothing to do with purgatory. His death was the payment for all our sins and His blood cleanses us.

The souls in purgatory are joyful in the certainty of their salvation but are in spiritual pain in the absolute certitude of God (since the veil is removed at death) and pine to be in full communion with The Holy God.

Are you aware that purgatory is not even mentioned in the first 2 centuries after Christ? You can actually trace the idea of purgatory to pagan Greek religion and philosphy.

 

[Lampo]

I’m confused when you and others claim the scriptures don’t teach. When you read the scriptures on your own and you learn something could it be said that the scriptures “taught” you since learning is an aspect of being taught?

Keep in mind that even nature teaches us.

Did they “teach” you the truth? People teach. Books don’t. I’ve learned from reading Scripture that infant baptism is necessary, Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, we need to confess our sins through a priest, Mary was immaculately conceived, Mary was assumed into Heaven, there is Purgatory, saints are alive in Heaven and can hear our prayers, we can’t obtain Heaven on our own, the entire word of God is important, not everything Jesus did is in Scripture, etc., etc. Did Scripture teach you these things as well?

Do you believe that the entire word of God is important (Deuteronomy 8:3 - "He therefore let you be afflicted with hunger, and then fed you with manna, a food unknown to you and your fathers, in order to show you that not by bread alone does man live, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of the LORD.)? Do you believe that not all of God’s words were written down (John 20:30-31 - "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of (his) disciples that are not written in this book.)? If you believe that all of God’s words are important, but not all of them were written down, where can you find these important words that were not written down?

 

[CentralFLJames]

I’m confused when you and others claim the scriptures don’t teach. When you read the scriptures on your own and you learn something could it be said that the scriptures “taught” you since learning is an aspect of being taught?

Keep in mind that even nature teaches us.

Interesting speculation. However, it still is true that Jesus did not in every case tell someone who He forgave to sin no more. We can only really go by what was written.

I agree. We should do what we can to avoid sin at all costs.

Where does it state in scripture (chapter and verse) that we should keep in mind that even nature teaches us? You just thrice contradicted yourself by trying to teach us that only scripture teaches while appealing to nature as a teacher and while stating that we can only go by what is written.

Come on, admit it. You have struck out every single time you have stood up to bat with the weak position of “sola scriptura”. It’s time to admit that you are wrong and start accepting that a bad understanding is not only going to get you safe on base but it is actually irresponsible and a sin to teach a false doctrine of man that has no basis in scripture nor in tradition.

James

 

[Lampo]

I wish we all had more humility! Especially myself.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I agree with most of what you write you. However the idea of penance i.e. a person confesses sins to a priest and is forgiven after performing a religious devotion or duty is not a biblical concept.

Keep in mind that what you describe here i.e. “The priest does not act on his own, He acts in the name of God and on behalf of His Church, administering God’s forgiveness (absolution). The sacrament of Confession wipes away our sins, increases sanctifying grace in our souls, and reunites us with Christ and His Church” is something not found in the Scriptures. Even with the priests of the OT we do not find any confession of sin to them and some kind of absolution given. Men confessed their sins directly to God.

In all these passages there is no person going to one of these priests performing these rites and asking for forgiveness or recieving absolution.

Excellent passages. Did you note that not one of them is a confession to a priest for forgiveness or absolution?

What part of public confession did you not understand in the scriptural references I gave you? If anything the Church has relaxed the stringent requirement of public confession in front of the whole Church as a Christian act of Mercy and dignity. In the old testament days and even the early Church people would shave their heads, wear sack cloth, rend their garments, cover themselves in ashes etc. as a public humility to show their utter rejection and repentance of their sinful actions. Such used to stand in humility in front of the entrance to the assembly begging the others for their prayers to be readmitted to their presence as “brothers and sisters”.

Christ told the apostles to follow his example: “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” (John 20:21). Just as the apostles were to carry Christ’s message to the whole world, so they were to carry his forgiveness: “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 18:18).

This power was understood as coming from God: “All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:18). Indeed, confirms Paul, “So we are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Cor. 5:20).

The earliest Christian writings, such as the first-century Didache, are indefinite on the procedure for confession to be used in the forgiveness of sins, but a verbal confession is listed as part of the Church’s requirement by the time of Irenaeus (A.D. 180). He wrote that the disciples of the Gnostic heretic Marcus “have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing themselves from the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses” (Against Heresies 1:22).

The sacrament of penance is clearly in use, for Irenaeus speaks of making an outward confession (versus remaining silent) upon which the hope of eternal life hangs, but it is not yet clear from Irenaeus just how, or to whom, confession is to be made. Is it privately, to the priest, or before the whole congregation, with the priest presiding? The one thing we can say for sure is that the sacrament is understood by Irenaeus as having originated in the infant Church.

Later writers, such as Origen (241), Cyprian (251), and Aphraates (337), are clear in saying confession is to be made to a priest. (In their writings the whole process of penance is termed exomologesis, which means confession—the confession was seen as the main part of the sacrament.) Cyprian writes that the forgiveness of sins can take place only “through the priests.” Ambrose says “this right is given to priests only.” Pope Leo I says absolution can be obtained only through the prayers of the priests. These utterances are not taken as novel, but as reminders of accepted belief. We have no record of anyone objecting, of anyone claiming these men were pushing an “invention.” (See the Catholic Answers tract Confession for full quotes from the early Church Fathers on the sacrament of penance.)

It is generally agreed even among Protestants that regular confession of one’s sins is obviously necessary to remain in good relationship with God. **So the issue is not whether we should or should not confess our sins. Rather, the real issue is, How does God say that our sins are forgiven or retained?" **

Is the Catholic who confesses his sins to a priest any better off than the non-Catholic who confesses directly to God? Yes. First, he seeks forgiveness the way Christ intended. Second, by confessing to a priest, the Catholic learns a lesson in humility, which is avoided when one confesses only through private prayer. Third, the Catholic receives sacramental graces the non-Catholic doesn’t get; through the sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces are obtained. Fourth, the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective “feeling.” Lastly, the Catholic can also obtain sound advice on avoiding sin in the future.

More Here

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

There is a lot here that would need pages to respond to. Is there any passage in place of the NT where we see any apostle hearing confession, absolving a person of their sins or giving some kind of penance to perform for forgiveness?

In context, with whom the reconcilation needed?

Here is the passage:
14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Where in these verses do we see the elder forgiving the person?

I looked up Luke and i don’t see what that has to do with what we are discussing. Can you clarify?

Yes there is a lot here and exactly why you need to be taught by the single authority on the planet that has the direct apostolic authority to properly teach Christ’s message - The Catholic Church. So this is a sign of recognition of humility and fallibility and this is good. The Church has been studying and interpreting Holy Scripture in light of Holy Tradition for 2000 years. So you do not need to spend your entire life studying ways to contradict the Church unless you consider yourself better than The Church and more enlightened than The Church. If this latter condition is the case then you are living in error and are subject to the sin of pride and obstinacy. Pride and lack of humility is a sure sign that you are not yet saved since it means you do not fully posses the truth and are in your obstinacy here actually directly opposed to the truth and Jesus’ teaching and are working at cross purposes to The Body of Christ - Jesus’ Church.

On the matter of Luke’s scriptures:
Do you do not see the applicability of Christians having access to God’s Kingdom and the necessary preparation (cleansing of sins just like Jesus washed the feet of the Apostles at the last supper) for eating at The Table of The Lord (to receive Eucharist). Do you not see the concepts of authority given to The Apostles and The Church to judge (forgive sin or hold them bound) ?!

If Luke is not enough for you please read more in these other passages which all support the same things:
Matt 24:47, Matt 25:21, Luke 12:44
judging Psa 49:14, Dan 7:22, Matt 19:28, 1st Cor 6:2, Rev 2:26, Rev 20:4

James

 

[guanophore]

You have mocked my use of them before.

Not at all! I think it is great you are using your Greek Lexicon. I am very proud of you for studying so hard, which you have obviously been doing. The problem I have is that you compare the contents of them to the Infallible Word of God.

What did they teach in seminary? i don’t get the impression from your posts that Scripture was a major discipline.

It was very scriptural, which is why I went. Greek, Hebrew, some German, homiletics, hermeneutics. You can see for yourself.

seminary.ashland.edu/

There is a difference between believing and trusting. Demons believe in God but they are either unwilling or incapable of trusting God. It could also be that salvation is not offered to fallen angels but only to men.

I agree, but there is nothing in those passages you cited about trust. It says “believe” and “confess with the mouth”. See why it is hard to base a doctrine on isolated passages?

However the idea of penance i.e. a person confesses sins to a priest and is forgiven after performing a religious devotion or duty is not a biblical concept.

Where did you get this notion? Is this what you were taught when you were growing up? What does this passage mean to you?

John 20:23
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Will a catholic still have to go to purgatory for these sins?

I think only God can judge the temporal punishment for sins. Do you not believe in temporal punishment?

Where dd Jesus or His apostles in their writings put these speciifc qualifacations on Christians before they could the Lord’s supper?

I can 't BELIEVE you are asking this question again. Don’t you think it would be more efficient just to go back and read the last thread we had on this?!

1 Cor 11:27-28

27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup."

The examination of conscience is part of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Can you give me an example of this from a prostestant perspective?

"justasking4:

Just because a person is “in Christ” i.e. the Spirit of Christ dwells in him now doesn’t mean he has no more problems. It would not necessarily mean he has no more problems with jealousy and anger at that moment. It takes time for the Spirit of Christ to work in his life. This kind of crime could be the result of either passion or mental instability.

The process you describe here, most often referred to by Protestants as “sanctification”, Catholics consider “working out salvation with fear and trembling”. Our beliefs are identical about how it happens, but Protestants usually separated it from “justification” by which they believe they are “saved” (once and for all) where Catholics believe that salvation begins at baptism, and is “worked out” as you describe above over the course of one’s life. Whatever passion or mental instability, or problems may remain at death are burned away (purged as if by fire) so that the soul can enter heaven.

I’m confused when you and others claim the scriptures don’t teach. When you read the scriptures on your own and you learn something could it be said that the scriptures “taught” you since learning is an aspect of being taught?

Yes, and we do learn by reading, but what we read passes through our filters and biases. This is true no matter what we read. When it comes to scripture, we are also biased by the pastors and teachers under whose tutelage we are learning.

Interesting speculation. However, it still is true that Jesus did not in every case tell someone who He forgave to sin no more. We can only really go by what was written.

You may do so if you wish, ja4, but don’t try to limit those of us who have received the Teaching of Jesus and the Apostles. The Teaching is clear that Jesus expects us to “sin no more” in each and every occasion.

I agree. We should do what we can to avoid sin at all costs.

Even if it does not say that in every passage? Is that biblical?

 

[guanophore]

I agree with most of what you write you. However the idea of penance i.e. a person confesses sins to a priest and is forgiven after performing a religious devotion or duty is not a biblical concept.

Clearly you do not understand the Sacrament. Not only that, but doing deeds that befit repentance is most certainly biblical.
“Bear fruit that befits repentance” Matt
3:8-9

Keep in mind that what you describe here i.e. “The priest does not act on his own, He acts in the name of God and on behalf of His Church, administering God’s forgiveness (absolution). The sacrament of Confession wipes away our sins, increases sanctifying grace in our souls, and reunites us with Christ and His Church” is something not found in the Scriptures. Even with the priests of the OT we do not find any confession of sin to them and some kind of absolution given. Men confessed their sins directly to God.

What is your understanding of this passage?

Matt 9:4-8
4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” - he then said to the paralytic - “Rise, take up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home. 8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men."

Together with this one:

John 20:22-23
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

In all these passages there is no person going to one of these priests performing these rites and asking for forgiveness or recieving absolution.

Clearly your understanding of the sacrificial system is lacking.

Heb 9:22
22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Excellent passages. Did you note that not one of them is a confession to a priest for forgiveness or absolution?

If you were to accept that Jesus did give men the power to forgive sins, how would that change anything for you?

There is a lot here that would need pages to respond to. Is there any passage in place of the NT where we see any apostle hearing confession, absolving a person of their sins or giving some kind of penance to perform for forgiveness?

Not that I know of. It is part of Sacred Tradition.

Here is the passage:
14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Where in these verses do we see the elder forgiving the person?

Catholics don’t derive doctrine by single passages, ja4. We look at all the passages together, and see how they reconcile with one another. Above, we see Jesus giving men the power to forgive sins. We see Him commissioning the Apostles to this work.

If you needed to confess sins, why would you choose anyone other than an elder, who had been commssioned to forgive them?

 

[guanophore]

I looked up Luke 22:29-30 and i don’t see what that has to do with what we are discussing. Can you clarify?

Luke 22:29-30
29 and** I assign to you**, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Jesus assigned the kingdom to the care of the Apostles. IF they were to sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel, why wouldn’t one trust them to hear confessions?

This statement contradicts what the great apostle wrote in Colossians 2: 13-14----
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, **having forgiven us all **our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

When Christ died His death covered all our sins. He took the penalty for all of them. This is why you don’t see the concept of purgatory in the Scriptures. Even catholic theologians concede this.

No, there is no contradiction. This describes our state immediately after baptism. Note that sinse are taken away, not “covered”. On the contrary, we DO see the concept of purgatory in scripture, just as we see the Trinity. Not the word, but the concept.

How is this “purification process” done in purgatory?

Not sure I will know that except by experience! We know that each man’s work will be revealed with fire.

1 Cor 3:12-15
13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Jesus has nothing to do with purgatory. His death was the payment for all our sins and His blood cleanses us.

If it were not for the blood of Jesus, we would not have the opportunity for our works to be purified by fire, so I think it has everything to do with Jesus.

QUOTE=justasking4;3511397]
Are you aware that purgatory is not even mentioned in the first 2 centuries after Christ? You can actually trace the idea of purgatory to pagan Greek religion and philosphy.

Catholics trace it back to the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, and we seen references to it in scripture. However, I don’t doubt that there may be found shadows of it in Paganism, which is replete with shadows of Divine Revelation.

 

[CentralFLJames]

This statement contradicts what the great apostle wrote in Colossians 2: 13-14----
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, **having forgiven us all **our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

When Christ died His death covered all our sins. He took the penalty for all of them. This is why you don’t see the concept of purgatory in the Scriptures. Even catholic theologians concede this.

There is in fact no contradiction if you understand the context of Paul’s writings and look at scripture holistically rather than from the near sightedness and error of self teaching.

First of all understand that the Colossians were converted but were being influenced by philosophy and by extreme sects of Jewish thinking. Colossians was written as a warning against certain false teachers, about whom St. Paul had probably heard from Epaphras, his “fellow-prisoner” and the founder of the Church of the Colossians.

The Epistle consists of two parts the first two chapters being dogmatico-polemical and the last two practical or moral. In the first part the writer shows the absurdity of the errors by a direct statement of the supereminent dignity of Christ, by Whose blood we have the means for redemption of sins. He is the perfect image of the invisible God, begotten before all creatures. By Him and for Him were created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, spiritual as well as material, and by Him are all things upheld. He is the Head of the Church and He has reconciled all things through the blood of His cross, and the Colossians “also he hath reconciled . . . through death”. St. Paul, as the Apostle of the Gentiles and a prisoner for their sakes, exhorts them to hold fast to Christ in Whom the plenitude of the Godhead dwells, and not to allow themselves under the plausible name of philosophy, to be re-enslaved by Jewish traditions based on the Law of Moses, which was but the shadow of which Christ was the reality and which was abrogated by His coming. They are not to listen to vain and rudimentary speculations of the false teachers, nor are they to suffer themselves to be deluded by a specious plea of humility to put angels or demons on a level with Christ, the creator of all, the master of angels, and conqueror of demons. More Here.

Christ NEVER COVERED OUR SINS as you assert. This is a perversion of Protestant teaching tradition. Christ made it possible for the eternal debts of our sins to be utterly forgiven and expiated completely. Our forgiven sin is utterly removed. All Christians get this initially through baptism. Recall that Christ was able to forgive sins by authority of His Divinity before He suffered and died on the cross just as He did in there scriptures we have referenced here. But it is by dieing on the dieing on the cross that Christ and in His Merits that God permits Jesus to extend His Divine right to forgive sin to His Church (ref. when he blows on the Apostles after the resurrection). No where in scripture is a person able to directly forgive themselves their own sins as Protestants attempt to do by assuming they are forgiven by simple prayer. Cain tried to win favor with God by offering up an unacceptable sacrifice. Clearly, some forms of worship and sacrifice are not acceptable to God. In fact being in a state of grave sin separates a person from God and makes it impossible to communicate with God unless one prays for forgiveness and submits to God’s authority to forgive. But there is no guarantee of forgiveness without submitting oneself to Jesus’ Church and the priestly authority. This is why a priest is necessary to intercede on behalf of the sinner through the authority of The Keys (loosing and binding). In scripture there is always an authoritative representative of God (priest) involved to offer up a sacrificial offering. Why do protestants invent new traditions that have never been practised for over 3500 years?

How is this “purification process” done in purgatory?

A soul is purified like metal in a spiritual fire of love that burns away impurities like gold and silver are refined. Remnants of pride, stubbornness, tendencies to enjoy sins of the flesh are utterly burned away. The spiritual person is reduced to a state of purity that is as innocent and trusting as a child (without original sin).

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Jesus has nothing to do with purgatory. His death was the payment for all our sins and His blood cleanses us.

Are you aware that purgatory is not even mentioned in the first 2 centuries after Christ? You can actually trace the idea of purgatory to pagan Greek religion and philosphy.

Are you now trying to teach us that Jesus did not descend to free the prisoners in purgatory when he died on the cross and open the gates of heaven so that they may enter. Jesus is Lord of all above earth, on earth and below earth. Jesus has EVERYTHING to do with all aspects of Creation including especially purgatory.

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." 1Pet3:

“For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.” 1Pet4

Who taught you that lie that The Church did not teach purgatory for 2 centuries after Christ? Do you know that lies and ignorance can be traced to demonic inspiration? Do you know that what Luther and the Protestant reformers taught and what you are promoting can be traced directly to the pride and rebellion of Satan?

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning “until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy” (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Do you know that sola scriptura and all the popular Protestant touch-stones of error were never recognized by the early Church until Luther and his followers came along to teach heresy for 1500 years after Christ? The only remaining question is why do you teach the error of Protestantism when no one in the Church nor the Apostles ever did?

James

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3512339]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is a difference between believing and trusting. Demons believe in God but they are either unwilling or incapable of trusting God. It could also be that salvation is not offered to fallen angels but only to men.

guanophore
I agree, but there is nothing in those passages you cited about trust. It says “believe” and “confess with the mouth”. See why it is hard to base a doctrine on isolated passages?

Don’t think that what i have written is an exhaustive treatment on belief and how it is used in Scripture. To believe in the context of Romans 10:9-10 does entail trust. I’m sure you would agree that a person can claim to believe in Christ i.e. certain facts about Him but do not “entrust” themselves to Him for salvation. There are many like this.

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3512441]There is in fact no contradiction if you understand the context of Paul’s writings and look at scripture holistically rather than from the near sightedness and error of self teaching.

First of all understand that the Colossians were converted but were being influenced by philosophy and by extreme sects of Jewish thinking. Colossians was written as a warning against certain false teachers, about whom St. Paul had probably heard from Epaphras, his “fellow-prisoner” and the founder of the Church of the Colossians.

The Epistle consists of two parts the first two chapters being dogmatico-polemical and the last two practical or moral. In the first part the writer shows the absurdity of the errors by a direct statement of the supereminent dignity of Christ, by Whose blood we have the means for redemption of sins. He is the perfect image of the invisible God, begotten before all creatures. By Him and for Him were created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, spiritual as well as material, and by Him are all things upheld. He is the Head of the Church and He has reconciled all things through the blood of His cross, and the Colossians “also he hath reconciled . . . through death”. St. Paul, as the Apostle of the Gentiles and a prisoner for their sakes, exhorts them to hold fast to Christ in Whom the plenitude of the Godhead dwells, and not to allow themselves under the plausible name of philosophy, to be re-enslaved by Jewish traditions based on the Law of Moses, which was but the shadow of which Christ was the reality and which was abrogated by His coming. They are not to listen to vain and rudimentary speculations of the false teachers, nor are they to suffer themselves to be deluded by a specious plea of humility to put angels or demons on a level with Christ, the creator of all, the master of angels, and conqueror of demons. More Here.

Christ NEVER COVERED OUR SINS as you assert. This is a perversion of Protestant teaching tradition.

I was referring to what love does. In I Peter 4:8 where Peter writes these words:
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
The word “cover” means to hide (Matt. 10:26; 2 Cor. 4:3; James 5:20; 1 Pet. 4:8; in the two latter cases, it means to cause a multitude of sins to be overlooked and not punished [cf. Ps. 32:1 where the comp. verb epikalúptō {1943}, to conceal is used]).
We can see this clearly in Psalm 32:1-2:
32:1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,Whose sin is covered!
2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,And in whose spirit there is no deceit!
.

Christ made it possible for the eternal debts of our sins to be utterly forgiven and expiated completely. Our forgiven sin is utterly removed.

You just made an excellent case against purgatory here. If sin is completely forgiven this would make purgatory completely unnecessary

All Christians get this initially through baptism. Recall that Christ was able to forgive sins by authority of His Divinity before He suffered and died on the cross just as He did in there scriptures we have referenced here. But it is by dieing on the dieing on the cross that Christ and in His Merits that God permits Jesus to extend His Divine right to forgive sin to His Church (ref. when he blows on the Apostles after the resurrection). No where in scripture is a person able to directly forgive themselves their own sins as Protestants attempt to do by assuming they are forgiven by simple prayer.

Not so. In I John 1:9 we are given this promise:
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice that in this entire letter there is no mention of a priest or confessing to a priest to be forgiven.

Cain tried to win favor with God by offering up an unacceptable sacrifice. Clearly, some forms of worship and sacrifice are not acceptable to God. In fact being in a state of grave sin separates a person from God and makes it impossible to communicate with God unless one prays for forgiveness and submits to God’s authority to forgive.

But there is no guarantee of forgiveness without submitting oneself to Jesus’ Church and the priestly authority.

Not so. I John 1:9 alone refutes your last sentence. Secondly there is no such exhortation in the NT where a person is to go to a priest to be forgiven.

This is why a priest is necessary to intercede on behalf of the sinner through the authority of The Keys (loosing and binding). In scripture there is always an authoritative representative of God (priest) involved to offer up a sacrificial offering. Why do protestants invent new traditions that have never been practised for over 3500 years?

Actually the idea of needing a priest to intercede for you is foreign to the NT. In fact there was no private confession to a priest until around the 7th century.

A soul is purified like metal in a spiritual fire of love that burns away impurities like gold and silver are refined. Remnants of pride, stubbornness, tendencies to enjoy sins of the flesh are utterly burned away. The spiritual person is reduced to a state of purity that is as innocent and trusting as a child (without original sin).

Where in Scripture is it mentioned that fire purifies the soul?

James

 

[Jimmy_B]

**

I find it amazing that there exist “Protestants” here at CAF, who are arguing, just a much with Martin Luther and the early Protestant Church as with Catholicism.

Did you know, according to Martin Luther, Infant Baptism is ok, more here

“That the Baptism of infants is pleasing to Christ”
-The Large Catechism by Martin Luther.

Did you know, according to Martin Luther, Absolution and confessing to a priest (“a confessor”) is ok, more here

“Since Absolution or the Power of the Keys is also an aid and consolation against sin and a bad conscience, ordained by Christ [Himself] in the Gospel, Confession or Absolution ought by no means to be abolished in the Church, especially on account of [tender and] timid consciences and on account of the untrained [and capricious] young people, in order that they may be examined, and instructed in the Christian doctrine.” – --The Smalcald Articles, By Martin Luther.

“When speaking to God, we should plead guilty to all sins, even those we don’t know about, just as we do in the “Our Father,” but when speaking to the confessor, only the sins we know about, which we know about and feel in our hearts.”

• Luther’s Little Instruction Book
  (The Small Catechism of Martin Luther)

Did you know, Martin Luther believed in the “Real Presence” when referring to the Eucharist, more here

“It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under bread and wine for us Christians to eat and to drink, established by Christ Himself.”
-Luther’s Little Instruction Book
(The Small Catechism of Martin Luther)

Did you know that Martin Luther Venerated Mary:
“There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.”
“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.” (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

• Jimmy B**

 

[Ronald_E]

Forgive me for jumping in here. I just read somewhere here in the thread that confession of one’s sins to another is not biblical. Correct me if I am wrong. The entire Bible is a confession of sin and pennance for sins.
Every sin we could commit is contained in the Bible as a written confession. In essence, if we are to follow the Bible we are to make our sins public in verbal and written form.
Thank God the Catholic Church saved me from global awareness of my sins by only requiring I confess to my priest as God’s representative here on earth.
40 years of sinning before I returned 3 years ago would have resulted in my disintegration if I were to confess openly as the Bible shows through the written word.

 

[guanophore]

32:1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,Whose sin is covered! 2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

A spirit can only be purified of deceit by holy purification.

You just made an excellent case against purgatory here. If sin is completely forgiven this would make purgatory completely unnecessary

No, you misunderstand purgatory. Purgatory is a state of cleansing for those whose sins have been forgiven in Christ. Any deeds done by the person that might impede their entrance into heaven (where nothing unclean can enter) are separated from the person.

Not so. In I John 1:9 we are given this promise:
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Yes. Purgatory is part of that cleansing. It is purification, as though by fire.

Notice that in this entire letter there is no mention of a priest or confessing to a priest to be forgiven.

There is no mention of the Trinity, either, but we all believe in that, don;t we?

Mark 1:4-5
5 And there went out to him all the country of Judea, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Acts 19:18-19
18 Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices."

Not so. I John 1:9 alone refutes your last sentence. Secondly there is no such exhortation in the NT where a person is to go to a priest to be forgiven.

It’s ok, ja4. You don’t have to go to confession. The graces available through that avenue are not accessible to you, because you are faithless.

Actually the idea of needing a priest to intercede for you is foreign to the NT. In fact there was no private confession to a priest until around the 7th century.

You have been misinformed about the Catholic faith. Public confession of sins was customary since the Baptism of John for repentance.

Where in Scripture is it mentioned that fire purifies the soul?

Fire is a symbol of many things, one of them being the sufferings from persecution.

1 Peter 1:6-7
6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 3:13-15
the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

I have understood you to say that this passage refers to “material” goods that one gives to the Kingdom, but this is not what the Apostle meant. The “work” is the work of the Kingdom, and the “foundation” is the apostles and prophets. These are Sacred Works “that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

Why would God reward material things? His Kingdom is not of this world.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I was referring to what love does. In I Peter 4:8 where Peter writes these words:
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
The word “cover” means to hide (Matt. 10:26; 2 Cor. 4:3; James 5:20; 1 Pet. 4:8; in the two latter cases, it means to cause a multitude of sins to be overlooked and not punished [cf. Ps. 32:1 where the comp. verb epikalúptō {1943}, to conceal is used]).
We can see this clearly in Psalm 32:1-2:
32:1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,Whose sin is covered!
2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

Well you can change the context of the discussion to back-peddle if you want to. That’s OK, I can extend the benefit of the doubt. The more important thing is that you at least have an opportunity to know the truth. If you want to reject it only God can change your heart. It is true that scripture does tell us that love can cover over a multitude of sins. Love is essential for Christians. This is probably a Protestant’s best avenue (outside of converting to Catholicism to gain all the sacraments) to actually being saved if they sin a lot after baptism. Baptism forgives both the eternal debt of sin as well as the temporal debt owed for sin. But after baptism without the sacrament of confession a Protestant has no guarantees of being forgiven of sins. The Catholic Church is the only mystical institution in all of Creation with the authority to forgive sins. It is not clear from scripture that acts (works) of love are sufficient to cover over grave sin though - only a multitude of venial sins. Logically it follows that one can not truly love another except through the means available through the grace of God. Without God “in the loop”(with His gifts of grace) it is impossible for humans to truly love one another. Without grace all human to human relationships deprecate to forms of co-dependencies, and flesh attractions and needs. These are NOT true love. Therefor I can assert with high confidence that a person in grave sin can not perform any good acts nor love since grave sin cuts a person off from God’s grace and make it impossible to do anything truly good. The bottom line is Love is wonderful and necessary for every Christian but if one is in a state of grave sin and does not confess and receive forgiveness one can not love. That’s what’s called “a catch-22” that goes circular and leaves a sinner unable to forgive himself much less love others.

You just made an excellent case against purgatory here. If sin is completely forgiven this would make purgatory completely unnecessary

God determines what is necessary - JA4 does not.
So, sorry - but the case is only made for baptism. If somone sins after baptism then they must be forgiven before they can enter heaven. But even forgiven sins require a full repentance (inner change of the person or deepening of commitment) though. One still is liable for paying the temporal debts owed for forgiven sins. If one does not completely pay that debt in one’s lifetime through prayer and acts of repentance (fasting, alms giving, self denial, works of love etc.) then one must pay that debt in purgatory.

Not so. I John 1:9 alone refutes your last sentence. Secondly there is no such exhortation in the NT where a person is to go to a priest to be forgiven.

I previously quoted you a number of scripture passages that explicitly mention presbyters and elders. The early Church did not feel comfortable using the lexicon “priest” for about a century since they knew they were breaking away from the Jewish traditions. But it is very clear that one had to confess to the leadership of The Church. So why are you not following the biblical instructions to confess your sins publicly?

Actually the idea of needing a priest to intercede for you is foreign to the NT. In fact there was no private confession to a priest until around the 7th century.

Actually you must not have read what I posted. Go back and re-read what I presented.

Where in Scripture is it mentioned that fire purifies the soul?

Now you are just being insincere and obstinate. See other’s comments since we have answered this question for you repetitively over the last 2 years.

James