non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[CentralFLJames]

In order to understand Christianity, which is Catholicism, context is everything!

Peace

I agree. There is really no such thing or concept as a “Christian” who is seperate from Catholicism.

The true Catholic Church has always had a pope and an ecclesiastical order of Bishops from the instant The Church was conceived (Pentecost). From the earliest years of the fledgling Catholic Church “the world” has spawned heretic after heretic from self styled rogues who styled themselves under the facsimile banner of "Christianity. But none of these were Catholic nor followers Christ. These impostors have all been self-styled “Christians” in name only and have not been members of The True Church.

But it is through heretics that God has caused His Church to shape its dogma and perfect its teaching to what we Catholics have today. Those that do not accept all the teachings of The Church are simply not Catholic and are not following Christ; ergo they are christians not Christians. These other pseudo-christians are following their own man-made ideas. These do not follow Jesus Christ they have created their own personal savior through a personal interpretation of a Personal-Bible- Christ. Essentially these write their own personal salvation scripts.

Ironically there is no such term as “Christian” to be found anywhere scripture. We Catholics (Gk: katholikos - universal/whole) get our name from the great universal commission: ‘Go therefore, and make disciples of all nations’ (Matt. 28:19–20) and from the early writings of the Early Church Fathers. In particular it is Ignatius of Antioch the second bishop of Antioch following Peter, who went on to become bishop of Rome who give us our name. Ignatius is known and revered as an authentic witness to the traditions and practice of the apostles. He was ordained by Peter himself.
Ignatius's Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8:

On his way to Rome, under military escort to the Coliseum, where he would be devoured by lions for his faith, Ignatius wrote, “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; **just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” **.

There is no question as to who Catholics are and what our legacy is. But anyone outside of the Catholic Church calling oneself “Christian” has no idea who he is or what their legacy and heritage is “Christians” can be anything from Scientology, to Jehovah’s Witness, to bible fundamentalist to Lutherans etc. The word Christian has become a meaningless term since it has been hijacked by error and by deceit. Given this absurd condition can anyone doubt there is a day of divine wrath coming?

Anyone who calls themselves “Christians” or anyone who wears the Christian Cross and carries a bible who is not Catholic are really those who aspire to be Catholic but do not yet know it. There is no meaning to the term “Christian” possible without being Catholic.

The Marian assumption dogma is sent to us as a gift to decisively crush the Protestant rebellion and the false teaching of Sola Scriptura. There is nothing in scripture that contradicts the assumption of Mary. Nor is there anything that explicitly defines the assumption of Mary - just like there is no term “trinity” to be found in scripture. Yet it is ENTIRELY consistent with scripture since scripture tells us that those alive in Christ will never die.
Protestants for the most part embrace the teaching of trinity through our traditions and teaching. What the dogmatic declaration of the assumption of Mary forces Protestants to do is to vacate the heresy of “scripture only” and either accept the papal authority and divine revelation or to be forever left behind to crushed into a billion shards of fundamentalist error. No longer can any church on the planet make the bogus claim that it is the apostolic “Catholic” church since all but Catholics have rejected the dogma of the assumption. The more protestants complain and protest - the more they differentiate themselves and seperate themselves from us. It is their free choice just as it was the early followers of Christ to reject The Eucharist teaching and seperate from Christ in John 6:66. It is not unfair to say that those that leave Christ and The Church through protest essentially mark themselves with the mark of Cain and of the beast. Yet there is always the call of Divine Mercy if one comes back to The Church and repents.

So in essence, Jesus is once again using the arc of Mary; this time to rapture ( ) His church away from the error of Protestantism. Those that want to call themselves Christians and remain outside mother Church are to be left light years behind by missing the boat that is pulling away rapidly…

James

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3524349]So now you not only want to teach the Apostolic Church what scripture means you want to teach us what our own doctrines mean and what our popes teach! What utter cheekiness.

Does a person have to be a catholic to understand what a pope teaches?

You can make all the assertions you want but the fact remains you are making non-substantiated statements which in fact are slanderous to The Church.

Not so. I have given facts that can be shown in history for example. Is it slanderous to show with historical facts that the inquisitions went on for centuries with the approval of many popes? There are historical facts that support this.

Only The Catholic Church possess the full repository of Truth.

So it is claimed.

James

 

[justasking4]

Hi, again ja4
Did you know ? Another who sat across the table from the Holy Trinity every day for years at each meal? Think about it? Can the three persons of the Holy Trinity be separated? Are they three separate persons or are they three inseparable persons in one GOD? Since we all know that they are distinct but not separate, then all three persons are present wherever one is.

The unity of the Trinity, implicit in scripture was decided by the Cathoic church, at Nicea I 325 AD.

Name another mother who lived with the Second Person of the Holy Trinity for 30 years?
Just imagine, Jesus taught His disciples for only 3 years, but He taught His Mother for many more.

And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and Holy is His name.” Luke 1:46-49

It’s amazing no others but the most ancient of Churches, the Cathoic and Orthodox, call Mary blessed as is written in scripture.

No Mary no Jesus. Of course ! you can say He coud have chosen someone else but the fact remains He didn’t.

Peace, OneNow1
:twocents:

Are you saying that Mary’s negative reponse could have stopped God from working our His plan of salvation?

 

[justasking4]

I am with James on this one. I would like to see your sources where **the catholic church condemned centuries ago. **
the teaching on the Assumption.

Do you understand that a Pope or a Church Father or Doctor can be wrong about doctrine, and that does not mean the Church is wrong?

I pray for the people that are close to you, if you are more brutal to them than you are to us. If you bear false witness against those in your life as much as you do here, God help them all!

Huh? Please give me a couple of examples where i have borne false witness against the catholic church?

 

[guanophore]

Does a person have to be a catholic to understand what a pope teaches?

Evidently in cases such as yours…

Despite having been told repeatedly that individuals do not necessarily represent what the Church teaches, you still cling to this error. This is why one of the members recently called you “obstinent”, which appears to be a fitting adjective.

Not so. I have given facts that can be shown in history for example. Is it slanderous to show with historical facts that the inquisitions went on for centuries with the approval of many popes? There are historical facts that support this.

Indeed. However, you are only picking out the parts of history you wish to use to slander the Church. You do not have an objective inquiring desire to understand this history, an how it occurred. You are just looking for ammunition to shoot at the Church to prove that she is wrong.

So it is claimed.

For some reason you feel compelled to try to disprove the claim. I wonder why? How does it change your relationship with God? What would happen to ja4 if he were to accept that other Christians believe differently than he?

Huh? Please give me a couple of examples where i have borne false witness against the catholic church?

Congratulations, by the way, on figuring out how to do the quotes. Click on the blue square next to your name, then keep clicking back and you will come to a post where you made the comment (Assumption of Mary) “was condemned by the Church long ago”. This is a false witness, because such an thing never happened.

 

[guanophore]

 All this shows is how weak you faith is...:(

It may be, ja4, that those of us who are deeply wounded by the lies and calumny that you spread here at CAF are hurt by your slander because our faith is weak. However, the fact that people who are deep in their faith are provoked by your behavior is not necessarily a sign of a weak faith. Was Peter’s faith weak, when he sliced off the ear of the servant of the high priest?

What you accuse me of is the very thing you are doing i.e. private interpreting. When your church has interpreted less than 20 verses infallibly you are left with your own personal and private interpretation of the rest of scripture. What this also does to you is to leave you without a way to know which if any interpretation is the correct one since your church has never infallibly interpreted them.

No “eek” from us, ja4. we have received the Apostolic Teaching, and therefore, can understand all that has been written. Jesus did not write a “believers manual” or instruct the Apostles to write books. He commissioned them:

Matt 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

The Apostles did just as Jesus commanded, and taught “all”. Some of this Teaching appears in the NT, but some does not.

Can you name one author of the Scriptures that refers to himself as a catholic?

All of the writers saw themselves as members of the ONE BODY, ONE CHURCH with ONE HEAD who is Jesus. They saw themselves under ONE BAPTISM and ONE FAITH.

The word “catholic” comes from the phrase “throughout the whole” (universal). It is seen in this verse:

Col 1:5-6
Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel 6 which has come to you, as indeed in the **whole world **it is bearing fruit and growing

Kathos = whole

Do you think they saw themselves as fundamentalist sola scriptura people?

If what you say is true then how do you respond to the many exhortations from Scripture about false teachers? We see one such warning in Acts 20:28-31:
28 “**Be on guard for yourselves **and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 **and from among your own selves **men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31 “Therefore be on the alert,

It seems to me that he has responded accurately, in pointing out that these scriptures apply most fitly to yourself. What was it in his post that was unclear on that? I thought he named you most aptly as a wolf in sheeps clothing.

This is where so many catholics fail to follow this exhortation. They fail to hold their leaders and teachers accountable to the Truth. Just reading  some of the materials about Marian devotions and practices is but one example of failing this command.

I think you believe this because you have rejected half of the Divine Revelation. If you don’t see it in scripture, then it does not exist.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t claim infalliblity nor does it exist among men. Secondly, your church has not defended the scriptures but has twisted them to support doctrines they do not.

Indeed, infalliblity does exist among men. If it did not, then the NT would not be available to you. It is good that, at least, you have accepted this part of revelation. It is God Breathed through the men who infallibly committed it to writing, then infallibly proclaimed it as canon. To say that infallibility does not exist is to deny Jesus’ promise that He would guide them into all truth.

i’m here to help people to see the truth and to look closely at the claims that are being made and where they lead to.

This is not the purpose of CAF, ja4. The forum is here to answer questions about the Catholic faith, not to give you a venue to convert people to your heretical beliefs.

What do you  mean   "EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE is CATHOLIC"?

The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics.

Of course there is. One such example is the celibacy requirement to be a bishop.

The Catholic Church chooses shepherds from among those who are called to dedicate their whole lives to the Church, so that their interests will not be divided.

1 Cor 7:32-35

32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, 34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband. 35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.

When the overseer can give undivided devotion to the Lord, the whole flock benefits.

Nonsense. No one owns the Scriptures and has authority over them.

It may be that you will only see the error of this statement when you come to judgement.

I'm in good company. Jesus and His apostles were accused of the same thing.

If you believe that you are walking with God, then walk in peace. There is no need for you to be here, as you have already gotten all your “catholic answers”. You are not here to inquire, but to convert others into “bible christians”.

How so?

Sola Scriptura is a doctrine of man that was never taught by Jesus and the Apostles, nor believed by them. It is a modern innovation. you have apparently even invented something you call “the written age” so that you can reject Apostolic Authority.

I have never spoken a lie here but have shown what the truth looks like. In fact in many cases i have used catholic sources that refute many of the claims made by catholics.

I think this may be true. A lie is a deliberate attempt to decieve someone. Since you believe firmly in the lies you are passing on, then the sin of lying belongs to the one who originated the deceit. Your condition is better described by the word denial.

Let me exhort you to listen to the scriptures. Let them be your guide to the Truth and not the doctrines of men. By them you will know the Truth…

You are right, as the scriptures are profitable for spiritual growth.

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God proves true;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

However, the Sacred Traditions are not “doctrines of men”, but are also the Word of God.

1 Thess 2:13

13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

This is what we hear as Catholics - the Word of God.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Are you saying that Mary’s negative reponse could have stopped God from working our His plan of salvation?

Hello justasking4

It is important to know that the Blessed Virgin Mary did possess free-will and could have said “No” and instead, said, "Let it be done onto me according to your will".

Mary was a devout follower of God the father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Many non-Catholic Christians lose sight of the fact that Mary was also a faithful disciple of Christ and the Mother of God.

Would you deny that Mary was a faithful disciple of Christ?

Are we to assume that you are a “better” disciple of Christ?

Peace

 

[CentralFLJames]

Does a person have to be a catholic to understand what a pope teaches?

Does a person have to be a Protestant to understand the infallible teachings and interpretations of JA4? If, so why are there hundreds of millions of other Protestants all going to over 30,000 different Protestant sects to hear other infallible interpretations? Can you point to scripture that shows us even a single case where a Protestant has ever been saved? Can you show us in scripture where there is mention of the new cult called Protestantism?

Not so. I have given facts that can be shown in history for example. Is it slanderous to show with historical facts that the inquisitions went on for centuries with the approval of many popes? There are historical facts that support this.

Are you now using another revisionist private interpretation of history to tell us that the inquisitions went on for centuries with the approval of the pope; even after I have told you at least 2 times in these forums that the protestant dominated countries burned 100’s of thousands of people at the stake under their rule than did Catholics?
Inquisition Symposium:

More Here
In the year 2000, Pope John Paul II called for an “Inquisition Symposium”, and opened the Vatican to 30 external historians. What they found discounted many **exaggerated facts **previously believed. **It was learned that more women accused of witchcraft died in the Protestant countries **than under the Inquisition. For example, the Inquisition burned 59 women in Spain, 36 in Italy and 4 in Portugal, while in Europe civil justice put to trial close to 100,000 women; 50,000 of them were burned, 25,000 in Germany, during the 16th century by the followers of Martin Luther.

It looks to me like your private interpretation is again proved to be highly biased to your own prejudices. **Are you sure you trust your eternal salvation to this level of incompetence in your own private interpretation? **

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Part 1

Your response was not unexpected. Instead of dealing with the issues you and others at times resort of personal attacks. One thing i’m beginning to understand why there were inquisitions in the catholic church. Once a person starts personal attacks and feels justified in them its not to far to the next step of torture etc as we saw in the inquisitions. All this shows is how weak you faith is…

Don’t you think you are being a bit melodramatic here? More people were murdered under Protestant rule (100s of thousands burned for witchcraft and for being Catholic etc) than were punished through inquisitions. Catholic inquisitions were a good thing - it was an attempt to excommunicate those who were “Christian” in name only and seperate them from the Church. There were admittedly some abuses but nowhere near on the exaggerated level you would want to believe to damage the Church. Most of the atrocities committed in the inquisitions were made under monarchs seperate from The Church.

What is weak here is you stoop to a level of hyperbola to stir up emotion and contempt for The Church. You seek to tear down the body of Christ therefor you persecute Jesus not build him up. You are also a person with a seared conscience and are unable to be communicated with at an objective level of interaction. So I have engaged you in the old way possible (emotional) as an attempt to save you from yourself. If you had spoken as you have in these forums against the Church in the 1400’s or earlier you would have been thrown out of the church and excommunicated and been unable to live productively among your Christian neighbors since The Church would have removed its blessings from you.

What you accuse me of is the very thing you are doing i.e. private interpreting. When your church has interpreted less than 20 verses infallibly you are left with your own personal and private interpretation of the rest of scripture. What this also does to you is to leave you without a way to know which if any interpretation is the correct one since your church has never infallibly interpreted them.

This is another absurd comment that we have refuted dozens of times with you. The Catholic Catechism has thousands of interpretations of scripture integrated into one teaching. If you have any doubt go to Catholic Catechism (CCC) and check the scriptural foot notes at the bottom of each page. The reason that there are few called “infallible” ex-cathedra teachings is because the Catholic Church only gives this label to doctrines that have been challenged by heretics to make it an automatic excommunication and condemnation to go against a teaching. So, in essence the Catholic Church teaches “in the positive” through the complete teachings of the CCC and she admonishes in the “punitive sense” through the infallible ex-Cathedra when she sees grave error developing or when she desires to assert new revelation. The Catholic Church is the single Authority for Teaching the Apostolic Christian Faith in the Universe.

Can you name one author of the Scriptures that refers to himself as a catholic?

Can you name a single verse in scripture that calls anyone “Christian” or “Bible Christian” or “Protestant”?

See my prior post on the history of how we got the name Catholic if you are interested. Or go here and read: What Does “Catholic” Mean"

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Part 2
If what you say is true then how do you respond to the many exhortations from Scripture about false teachers? We see one such warning in Acts 20:28-31:
28 “**Be on guard for yourselves **and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 **and from among your own selves **men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31 “Therefore be on the alert,

This is where so many catholics fail to follow this exhortation. They fail to hold their leaders and teachers accountable to the Truth. Just reading some of the materials about Marian devotions and practices is but one example of failing this command.

Why do you have such a predisposition to be paranoid about false teachers rather than focus on the truth? Why do you personally tend to prefer to mistrust The Church rather than trust teaching when history shows very clearly that no other Church except the Catholic Church is an Apostolic Church with an unbroken chain of teaching authority that came directly from the Apostles themselves? Why are YOU not utterly paranoid when men such as Luther and the reformers came 1500 years after the Apostles to teach A TEACHING OF MAN!!! Is it because you bought into their lie hook line and sinker?

One does not hold a legitimate authority and teacher accountable to one’s own opinion like you do JA4. You demonstrated over and over again 2 seriously grave personal disorders - 1) Loathing for authority and 2) profoundly irrational paranoia about false teachings by accepting the errors of Luther’s teaching that are only 500 years old (and have no legitimate authority) and by rejecting the Catholic Teaching that has been with us for 2000 years.

You have a profound fear of anything the Church teaches. Why is this JA4? Who poisoned your mind and your heart? Who put fear in your heart rather than trust? Who put hate for The Church in your soul rather than grace?

I don’t claim infalliblity nor does it exist among men. Secondly, your church has not defended the scriptures but has twisted them to support doctrines they do not.

Where is scripture does it say that infallability does not exist among men? The Church has defended scriptures for 2000 years. No other church exists on the planet that has been able to challenge the authority nor the teaching of The Catholic Church. It is your mind and your fears and paranoias that have twisted scripture to support your own ideas about what JA4 would like to believe.

i’m here to help people to see the truth and to look closely at the claims that are being made and where they lead to.

No you are here to deceive people and cause people to be infected by your fear and your loathing for the Catholic Church and for the Truth that condems you and calls you a false teacher. You are here to make JA4’s poor tortured mind feel that he is righteous and can earn his favor with God and earn a place in heaven. You are here because you do not trust in God’s grace to deliver people from their fears and their poisoned minds and from their grave sins. So you come here to slander The Church to make yourself feel relevant.

You need to look to where your claims lead you. You stand in direct opposition to The Church so you need to examine where your opposition leads you to since God will hold you personally accountable for each soul you lead astray.

What do you mean “EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE is CATHOLIC”?

The bible was written and assembled by and for Catholics to spread the good news to the heathens and the spiritually dead. Surely, you don’t imagine that any of the apostles and popes or early church fathers and saints were Protestant do you?

Of course there is. One such example is the celibacy requirement to be a bishop.

We have gone over this at least half a dozen times for you JA4. See that hundres of posts on this topic that are here at CAF. You are just being redundant and trying to run away from that facts that you can’t evade - and those are that you are in grave error and are full of fear and loathing for the Catholic Church and have no authority at all to teach scripture - zero.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Nonsense. No one owns the Scriptures and has authority over them.

The word of God was given to The Church through the Holy Spirit and The Catholic Church is the custodian and defender of the faith. Who else but the Catholic Church has been defending God’s word for 2000 years? JA4 did not come around until recently. You have no authority to teach nor do you even have more than a superficial knowledge of scripture to be able to teach. Your only teaching credential that I can see if by negative example. You are a perfect example of what scripture calls a “False Teacher”.
The Bible is Catholic. But without Catholic Teaching and tradition it is just a book that can be read like any other book. But this book is written in such a way that those who are spiritually blind and deaf and obstinate and adverse to Church Authority and not of God will never be able to get the truth from it and steal their way into heaven. God put in safeguards into scripture to prevent people just like Simon Magus from stealing heaven. You are attempting to break into heaven by a back door of private interpretation that does not exist. Woe to the thief who tries to sneak in except through the narrow gate!

I’m in good company. Jesus and His apostles were accused of the same thing.

You are in good company only when you are in communion with God and His Church. You are not - you left the table of the lord to betray Jesus’ teaching in the same manner as did Judas.

I have never spoken a lie here but have shown what the truth looks like. In fact in many cases i have used catholic sources that refute many of the claims made by catholics.

Let me exhort you to listen to the scriptures. Let them be your guide to the Truth and not the doctrines of men. By them you will know the Truth…

In fact you have spoken almost nothing but the lies of Satan since you have been here at CAF. I don’t think you really intend to but you do have a real hatred for the Catholic Church that SOMEONE taught you. Your pride and biases are being used against you by Satan. He is using you like his personal manikin. However, the Holy Spirit can still save you if you start opening up and listening to what He is saying. If comes down to you putting aside your pride and biases and being honest with yourself. Examine your personal history and look back to determine when and by who your mind was poisoned by false teachings of men - that you now replicate.

James

 

[Lampo]

I think this may be true. A lie is a deliberate attempt to decieve someone. Since you believe firmly in the lies you are passing on, then the sin of lying belongs to the one who originated the deceit. Your condition is better described by the word denial.

And we all know who the “Father of Lies” is.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3528840]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Of course there is. One such example is the celibacy requirement to be a bishop.

guanophore
The Catholic Church chooses shepherds from among those who are called to dedicate their whole lives to the Church, so that their interests will not be divided.

1 Cor 7:32-35

32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, 34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband. 35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.

When the overseer can give undivided devotion to the Lord, the whole flock benefits.

This looks quite reasonable but again you have taken passages out of context. If you look at the context 1 Cor 7:32-35 it has nothing to do with leadership in the church. The qualifications for leadership in the church in regards to what would make a good leader is found in I Timothy 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Nonsense. No one owns the Scriptures and has authority over them.

guanophore
It may be that you will only see the error of this statement when you come to judgement

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
I’m in good company. Jesus and His apostles were accused of the same thing.

guanophore
If you believe that you are walking with God, then walk in peace. There is no need for you to be here, as you have already gotten all your “catholic answers”. You are not here to inquire, but to convert others into “bible christians”.

Thats not the way of apostles… they persisted in presenting the truth and pointing out error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
How so?

guanophore
Sola Scriptura is a doctrine of man that was never taught by Jesus and the Apostles, nor believed by them. It is a modern innovation. you have apparently even invented something you call “the written age” so that you can reject Apostolic Authority.

Not so. Did Jesus hold men responsible to the Scriptures?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
I have never spoken a lie here but have shown what the truth looks like. In fact in many cases i have used catholic sources that refute many of the claims made by catholics.

guanophore
I think this may be true. A lie is a deliberate attempt to decieve someone. Since you believe firmly in the lies you are passing on, then the sin of lying belongs to the one who originated the deceit. Your condition is better described by the word denial.

I have yet to see you refute these facts from your own sources. If anyone is in denial it is you.

Originally Posted by justasking4
Let me exhort you to listen to the scriptures. Let them be your guide to the Truth and not the doctrines of men. By them you will know the Truth…

guanophore
You are right, as the scriptures are profitable for spiritual growth.

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God proves true;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

However, the Sacred Traditions are not “doctrines of men”, but are also the Word of God.

1 Thess 2:13

13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

This is what we hear as Catholics - the Word of God.

The problem is that you also accept the teachings of men that contradict the very scriptures you accept. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you and yet you resist to hold your teachers accountable.

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3529364]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Does a person have to be a catholic to understand what a pope teaches?

CentralFLJames
Does a person have to be a Protestant to understand the infallible teachings and interpretations of JA4?

Huh? Where did i say that in my comments anywhere that they are “infallible teachings and interpretations”?

If, so why are there hundreds of millions of other Protestants all going to over 30,000 different Protestant sects to hear other infallible interpretations?

Huh? Where do you get this idea? I know of no protestant teacher that claims to be infallible. Do you?
Do you have an infallible understanding of all that your church teaches? Does any catholic?

Can you point to scripture that shows us even a single case where a Protestant has ever been saved?

Any man or woman who understands and believes Roman 10:9-13 will be saved:
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;1
0 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Can you show us in scripture where there is mention of the new cult called Protestantism?

Its not a biblical word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justasking4
Not so. I have given facts that can be shown in history for example. Is it slanderous to show with historical facts that the inquisitions went on for centuries with the approval of many popes? There are historical facts that support this.

CentralFLJames
Are you now using another revisionist private interpretation of history to tell us that the inquisitions went on for centuries with the approval of the pope; even after I have told you at least 2 times in these forums that the protestant dominated countries burned 100’s of thousands of people at the stake under their rule than did Catholics?

This would be an excellent topic to discuss. I can understand decieved protestants doing such things but i can’t understand how the vicars of Christ i.e. the popes would approve such methods against protestants and those who disagreed. This is staggering in its implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquisition Symposium
More Here
In the year 2000, Pope John Paul II called for an “Inquisition Symposium”, and opened the Vatican to 30 external historians. What they found discounted many exaggerated facts previously believed. It was learned that more women accused of witchcraft died in the Protestant countries than under the Inquisition. For example, the Inquisition burned 59 women in Spain, 36 in Italy and 4 in Portugal, while in Europe civil justice put to trial close to 100,000 women; 50,000 of them were burned, 25,000 in Germany, during the 16th century by the followers of Martin Luther.

Which church was in partnership with the secular authorities for centuries? Which church worked hand in hand with the governing authorities?

It looks to me like your private interpretation is again proved to be highly biased to your own prejudices. Are you sure you trust your eternal salvation to this level of incompetence in your own private interpretation?

Were both in the same boat on this. Each man must decide either to trust Christ for salvation or something else. I have chosen to trust the scriptures by mine own “private interpretation” and understanding. You also must “privately interpret” what your church teaches for your salvation.
What saves a catholic? What must a catholic believe and/or do to be saved?

James

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3529539]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I have never spoken a lie here but have shown what the truth looks like. In fact in many cases i have used catholic sources that refute many of the claims made by catholics.

Let me exhort you to listen to the scriptures. Let them be your guide to the Truth and not the doctrines of men. By them you will know the Truth…

CentralFLJames;
In fact you have spoken almost nothing but the lies of Satan since you have been here at CAF. I don’t think you really intend to but you do have a real hatred for the Catholic Church that SOMEONE taught you. Your pride and biases are being used against you by Satan. He is using you like his personal manikin. However, the Holy Spirit can still save you if you start opening up and listening to what He is saying. If comes down to you putting aside your pride and biases and being honest with yourself. Examine your personal history and look back to determine when and by who your mind was poisoned by false teachings of men - that you now replicate.

James

If you and others want to call me a liar then you have a responsiblity to show this specifically. This is a good defintion of a lie:deliberately say something untrue: to say something that is not true in a conscious effort to deceive somebody
Differences of interpretations and views are not lies. What you must show is that i have deliberately misconstrued facts that i have presented. Please give me a couple of examples of my lying so we can see if that is truly the case.

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3529536]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Part 2
If what you say is true then how do you respond to the many exhortations from Scripture about false teachers? We see one such warning in Acts 20:28-31:
28 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31 “Therefore be on the alert,

This is where so many catholics fail to follow this exhortation. They fail to hold their leaders and teachers accountable to the Truth. Just reading some of the materials about Marian devotions and practices is but one example of failing this command.

CentralFLJames
Why do you have such a predisposition to be paranoid about false teachers rather than focus on the truth?

Men are more inclined to teach falsely than the truth. Paul certainly felt this way when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 11:3 these words:
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
This is what so many of the doctrines and practices do. They lead those away from Christ.

CentralFLJames
Why do you personally tend to prefer to mistrust The Church rather than trust teaching when history shows very clearly that no other Church except the Catholic Church is an Apostolic Church with an unbroken chain of teaching authority that came directly from the Apostles themselves?

When a church makes a false teacher a doctor of the church a saint that is enough to distrust. Secondly, we are warned in scriptures that false teachers would come into the church itself and deceive many. Thirdly, read catholic history for the past 1500 years. That in itself would be enough not to trust.

Why are YOU not utterly paranoid when men such as Luther and the reformers came 1500 years after the Apostles to teach A TEACHING OF MAN!!! Is it because you bought into their lie hook line and sinker?

How is the teachings of the reformers a A TEACHING OF MAN? What doctrines do you find abhorrent besides Sola Scriptura?

Do you think what you believe about the catholic church is and has been the truth and nothing but?

One does not hold a legitimate authority and teacher accountable to one’s own opinion like you do JA4. You demonstrated over and over again 2 seriously grave personal disorders - 1) Loathing for authority QUOTE]
What i have a problem with is a church that has decieved people with its unblilcal doctrines. Its also troubling that many intelligent catholics that i know refuse to hold its teachers and leaders accountable.

and 2) profoundly irrational paranoia about false teachings by accepting the errors of Luther’s teaching that are only 500 years old (and have no legitimate authority) and by rejecting the Catholic Teaching that has been with us for 2000 years.

How long some institution has been around is not grounds for accepting all that it teaches as true. If not for the sciptures a man could justify believing anything including an authority of men.

You have a profound fear of anything the Church teaches.

You rely to much on your mind reading abilty instead of asking questions. I don’t fear anything the church teaches. I fear when people who claim to follow Christ believe whatever their church teaches without holding these teachers to what the scriptures teach.

Why is this JA4? Who poisoned your mind and your heart? Who put fear in your heart rather than trust? Who put hate for The Church in your soul rather than grace?

i don’t hate catholics or you. What i hate are doctrines that circumvent the teachings of Christ and lead men astray.

 

[Tomster]

Huh? Where did i say that in my comments anywhere that they are “infallible teachings and interpretations”?

Huh? Where do you get this idea? I know of no protestant teacher that claims to be infallible. Do you?
Do you have an infallible understanding of all that your church teaches? Does any catholic?

Any man or woman who understands and believes Roman 10:9-13 will be saved:
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;1
0 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Its not a biblical word.

Quote:

This would be an excellent topic to discuss. I can understand decieved protestants doing such things but i can’t understand how the vicars of Christ i.e. the popes would approve such methods against protestants and those who disagreed. This is staggering in its implications.

Which church was in partnership with the secular authorities for centuries? Which church worked hand in hand with the governing authorities?

Were both in the same boat on this. Each man must decide either to trust Christ for salvation or something else. I have chosen to trust the scriptures by mine own “private interpretation” and understanding. You also must “privately interpret” what your church teaches for your salvation.
What saves a catholic? What must a catholic believe and/or do to be saved?

justasking4,

As this thread is winding down I am so very glad to you have made these admissions. They are telling. You are not infallible and your interpretations are your own. Wonderful! After making these admissions, how do you really know that your interpretations are correct bearing in mind, by your own admission, that you are not infallible. Please answer the question. How do you really know for sure? The only answer is that you do not know for sure. They are just your opinions and that is all they are.

The “faith that was handed down, once for all, to the saints” was never prior to the 16th century, conceived of as a mass of heterogeneous beliefs from which men could pick and choose according to their inclinations. It was an authoritative pattern of teaching, a “form of doctrine,” as St. Paul reminded the Romans. There is, from the beginning, a definite “confession” of faith to which we must “hold fast.” That this early apostolic confession was believed to be backed and supported by God’s truth is clear from the words of our Lord Himself: “I have still many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of trurh , comes, he shall guide you into all truth.” It is in the light of this assurance that we find the primitive Christian community speaking of itself as “the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth.”

Sorry justasking4, your “fallible” and “personal interpretations” do not follow this authoritative pattern.

Over the centuries, when the Church’s consciousness of her power to give authoritative expression to the authentic Christian teaching has reached its logical outcome in the claim to infallibility
with reference to it, we find the fundamental position unaltered; she remains the faithful guardian and exponent of Tradition, wholly concentrated on what has been transmitted from apostolic times.

 

[justasking4]

Tomster;3532107]
justasking4,

As this thread is winding down I am so very glad to you have made these admissions. They are telling. You are not infallible and your interpretations are your own. Wonderful! After making these admissions, how do you really know that your interpretations are correct bearing in mind, by your own admission, that you are not infallible. Please answer the question. How do you really know for sure? The only answer is that you do not know for sure. They are just your opinions and that is all they are.

The same goes for you. You don’t know for sure either whether your church is deceiving you or not. You can claim it but your belief in this claim is also fallible. The mere fact an authority claims to declare it does not make it so. We both could be wrong.

The “faith that was handed down, once for all, to the saints” was never prior to the 16th century, conceived of as a mass of heterogeneous beliefs from which men could pick and choose according to their inclinations. It was an authoritative pattern of teaching, a “form of doctrine,” as St. Paul reminded the Romans. There is, from the beginning, a definite “confession” of faith to which we must “hold fast.” That this early apostolic confession was believed to be backed and supported by God’s truth is clear from the words of our Lord Himself: “I have still many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of trurh , comes, he shall guide you into all truth.” It is in the light of this assurance that we find the primitive Christian community speaking of itself as “the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth.”

The faith that was handed down (Jude 3) is not the same faith that is in the catholic church. Jude knew nothing of the marian doctrines, purgatory etc. I have demonstrated repeatedly that unbiblical nature of these doctrines. You and other catholic as far as I have seen have not come even come close to demonstrating that these were the beliefs of Jesus and His apostles. Your church goes far beyond what Jude is speaking of.

Sorry justasking4, your “fallible” and “personal interpretations” do not follow this authoritative pattern.

Nor do yours and countless other catholics. You and all men and women are also fallible just as I am.

Over the centuries, when the Church’s consciousness of her power to give authoritative expression to the authentic Christian teaching has reached its logical outcome in the claim to infallibility
with reference to it, we find the fundamental position unaltered; she remains the faithful guardian and exponent of Tradition, wholly concentrated on what has been transmitted from apostolic times.

Its my understanding that this was not always believed in the church. Isn’t it true that popes were not always regarded as being infallible?
What do you mean by “Tradition”? Is it something not in Scripture or is it another way of saying Scripture?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3528839]
Originally Posted by justasking4
What you accuse me of is the very thing you are doing i.e. private interpreting. When your church has interpreted less than 20 verses infallibly you are left with your own personal and private interpretation of the rest of scripture. What this also does to you is to leave you without a way to know which if any interpretation is the correct one since your church has never infallibly interpreted them.

guanophore
No “eek” from us, ja4. we have received the Apostolic Teaching, and therefore, can understand all that has been written.

If this is true then how is it that catholics i dialogue with have different understandings of what the catholic church teaches?

Jesus did not write a “believers manual” or instruct the Apostles to write books.

Evidently the Christian communtiy saw it otherwise i.e. that the teachings of Christ should be written down. See Luke 1:1-4

He commissioned them:

Matt 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

The Apostles did just as Jesus commanded, and taught “all”. Some of this Teaching appears in the NT, but some does not.

If this is true then why does the catholic church teach things the NT never did? As you know full well there is no teachings of the apostles outside the NT. To claim that there is to promote a myth since it has never been shown to be any apostolic teaching outside the NT.