non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[Tonks40]

JA4:

I’ve been following this thread for a while now. Many of the Catholic posters here have patiently and charitably given you proofs that you can look up yourself on how the Deposit of Faith was given to the Church. Yet time and time again, very much like your interpretations of Scripture, you pick and choose those issues that you feel you have a problem with. You neglect the fact that it was through the Church that the Scriptures were compiled and handed down to us. You gloss over rational explanations of beliefs such as Purgatory, Mary, and the Saints without real discussion. You’re not doing yourself any good by spewing out attacks without thoughtful discussion and research.

Even if you did the research, and gave real rational explanations as to why you still do not believe, or even admit to not understanding, the doctrines of the Church, it would not be as bad as the obvious indifference and narrowly-focused arguments you’ve been providing on this thread. It’s sad how hardened your heart is, how low your blows have been, and how uncharitable and self-righteous your attitude has been here.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3528839]

Originally Posted by justasking4

If what you say is true then how do you respond to the many exhortations from Scripture about false teachers? We see one such warning in Acts 20:28-31:
28 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31 “Therefore be on the alert,

guanophore
It seems to me that he has responded accurately, in pointing out that these scriptures apply most fitly to yourself. What was it in his post that was unclear on that? I thought he named you most aptly as a wolf in sheeps clothing.

You claim to have gone to a semiary and you make comments like this?

 

[justasking4]

JA4:

I’ve been following this thread for a while now. Many of the Catholic posters here have patiently and charitably given you proofs that you can look up yourself on how the Deposit of Faith was given to the Church. Yet time and time again, very much like your interpretations of Scripture, you pick and choose those issues that you feel you have a problem with. You neglect the fact that it was through the Church that the Scriptures were compiled and handed down to us. You gloss over rational explanations of beliefs such as Purgatory, Mary, and the Saints without real discussion. You’re not doing yourself any good by spewing out attacks without thoughtful discussion and research.

Even if you did the research, and gave real rational explanations as to why you still do not believe, or even admit to not understanding, the doctrines of the Church, it would not be as bad as the obvious indifference and narrowly-focused arguments you’ve been providing on this thread. It’s sad how hardened your heart is, how low your blows have been, and how uncharitable and self-righteous your attitude has been here.

Huh? I have spoken the truth in regards to these doctrines. I have repeatedly demonstrated from Scripture and history that these doctrines and practices are not grounded in Scripture but are the speculations of men. If these doctrines were true they would be well supported by the Scriptures in every area. What is sad is that so many catholics have put all their faith in what their church teaches instead of the Word of God which leads to salvation and growth in Christ.

You speak of “low blows”. You might want to read again what some of your fellow catholics have written about me. There has not been one case that i’m aware of where another catholic has ever said this was wrong. i have been slandered and insulted personally by many professed catholics. I have not insulted or slandered in return. This is the self righteous attitude you want to look at.

 

[guanophore]

Men are more inclined to teach falsely than the truth. Paul certainly felt this way when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 11:3 these words:
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

No, ja4, this is not about people teaching. In fact, Paul is clear that his teaching is authoritative, and should be considered the Word of God. In this passage, he is expressing his concerns about those to whom he had brought the Gospel going astray.

I think it depends upon the man. Clearly you have represented yourself as someone who is more inclined to teach falsely. However, you should not judge others by yourself. I would like to put you in a room with John Corapi, for example, and have you level that charge to him.
This is what so many of the doctrines and practices do. They lead those away from Christ.

When a church makes a false teacher a doctor of the church a saint that is enough to distrust.

It is clear that you have serious trust issues, ja4, that are probably more appropriately taken to therapy than to CAF. If you distrust the doctors and saints of the Church, this is your perogative. Since you are distrustful, what keeps you from going your way in peace? Why must you continue to bite and tear at the Holy Bride of Christ? What compels you?

Secondly, we are warned in scriptures that false teachers would come into the church itself and deceive many. Thirdly, read catholic history for the past 1500 years. That in itself would be enough not to trust.

You are free to distrust, ja4. Why are you here? It seems to me that you want to drag contented believers into your distrust with you!

How is the teachings of the reformers a A TEACHING OF MAN? What doctrines do you find abhorrent besides Sola Scriptura?

That is sufficient. Rejection of the Authority appointed by Christ causes one to pass through the gates of hell. Sola Scriptura is enough in itself to create all of the others!

Do you think what you believe about the catholic church is and has been the truth and nothing but?

I can do this because I am able to do something you cannot, which is to distinguish the Holy Church from the fallible and sinful men who are a part of her.
"who?:

One does not hold a legitimate authority and teacher accountable to one’s own opinion like you do JA4. You demonstrated over and over again 2 seriously grave personal disorders - 1) Loathing for authority

What i have a problem with is a church that has decieved people with its unblilcal doctrines. Its also troubling that many intelligent catholics that i know refuse to hold its teachers and leaders accountable.

Since you don’t consider yourself deceived, why should this trouble you? It seems that you are attacking the Church in retaliation for being hurt by someone.

How long some institution has been around is not grounds for accepting all that it teaches as true. If not for the sciptures a man could justify believing anything including an authority of men.

Yes, and the opposite is also true. Without the Authority appointed by Christ, a man could justify thousands of interpretations and denomniations with scripture. That is why it is so important that the two not be separated.

You rely to much on your mind reading abilty instead of asking questions. I don’t fear anything the church teaches. I fear when people who claim to follow Christ believe whatever their church teaches without holding these teachers to what the scriptures teach.

Ok, then why be around here and expose yourself to it? You have established your beliefs, and you have not been successful in converting anyone to your doctrine. What needs to you have that are getting met here?

i don’t hate catholics or you. What i hate are doctrines that circumvent the teachings of Christ and lead men astray.

I can appreciate that you believe what you have been taught, ja4, and I am honestly sorry that you have been so wounded by a Catholic or Catholicsl However, your hate is not welcome here no matter where it is directed. CAF is not a venue for you to vent your venom and hatefulness toward the church.

 

[guanophore]

This looks quite reasonable but again you have taken passages out of context. If you look at the context 1 Cor 7:32-35 it has nothing to do with leadership in the church. The qualifications for leadership in the church in regards to what would make a good leader is found in I Timothy 3.

Catholics don’t peicemeal the scriptures as fundamentalists do, ja4. We take all of them together as a united whole. Therefore, we look at each and every passage about leadership together, and come to an understanding by using them all together.

There is absolutely no reason that this passage should not be considered when choosing leaders. It is most excellent for a person to become a eunuch for the Kingdom. However, your wording also reveals that you are still confused about ordained life, and leadership. Most leadership in parishes is provided by married laypersons.

Thats not the way of apostles… they persisted in presenting the truth and pointing out error.

No, ja4, when their message was not received, they moved on. They persisted in pointing out error only in their capacity as shepherds of the flock of God. You have no such capacity here, or anywhere in the Catholic Church. You do not meet the requirements for leadership, whether lay or ordained, and you have not the authority to correct Catholics about their beliefs. The purpose of CAF is to answer questions to sincere persons that want answers. You have demonstrated that you are not such a person. This is not a venue for you to “point out error” to us.

Not so. Did Jesus hold men responsible to the Scriptures?

Jesus held men responsible to the Teaching of God, some of which is documented in the Holy Writings. Jesus was not Sola Scriptura, and neither were the Apostles.

I have yet to see you refute these facts from your own sources. If anyone is in denial it is you.

How can I refute what you have created with your imagination? Jesus founded a Church. He promised to be with the Church until “the end of the age”. He did not say He would abandon the Church once the Canon was formed.

The problem is that you also accept the teachings of men that contradict the very scriptures you accept. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you and yet you resist to hold your teachers accountable.

It seems that way to you because you don’t understand one or the other. I know what it is like. I was a fundamentalist for a short time also. What I cannot figure out is, why must the beliefs of others create a problem for you? You can plainly see that Catholics do not have a problem with Sacred Tradition. Instead of trying to create a problem for us where none exists, what prevents you from going your way in peace?

If you and others want to call me a liar then you have a responsiblity to show this specifically. This is a good defintion of a lie:deliberately say something untrue: to say something that is not true in a conscious effort to deceive somebody

I cannot accuse you of lying because I belief that you honestly believe the calumny and bigotry you spread here. I believe that you have bought into the lies completely, and are only pandering what you were given.

Differences of interpretations and views are not lies. What you must show is that i have deliberately misconstrued facts that i have presented. Please give me a couple of examples of my lying so we can see if that is truly the case.

I believe it is not possible for you to comprehend where the facts are misconstrued. Your mind and heart are so closed and hateful toward the Catholic Church that it seems to me that only God will be able to show you where you have borne false witness.

 

[guanophore]

If this is true then how is it that catholics i dialogue with have different understandings of what the catholic church teaches?

It is usually because they are not reading it!

Evidently the Christian communtiy saw it otherwise i.e. that the teachings of Christ should be written down. See Luke 1:1-4

Yes, it finally became clear to them, some 20 years after the Resurrection that Jesus was not going to come back as quickly as they thought. It has nothing to do with the message being incomplete prior to writing it, and it does not imply that their teachings were less complete after the NT was written.

If this is true then why does the catholic church teach things the NT never did? As you know full well there is no teachings of the apostles outside the NT. To claim that there is to promote a myth since it has never been shown to be any apostolic teaching outside the NT.

It cannot be show to YOU ja4, becuase it is not possible for you to access that portion of the revelation. Can’t you be satisfied with the scriptures?

You claim to have gone to a semiary and you make comments like this?

Absolutely! We did get training in discernment, and knowing people by their fruits. The fruit of your posts is divisive, hostile, full of hatefulness and bigotry and reflect a hardness of heart. You have admitted yourself that you are here in order to convince Catholics that they are believing false doctrines, that they should abandon the Sacred Traditions (which you believe are the doctrines of men), and confront their leadership for teaching errors.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Huh? Please give me a couple of examples where i have borne false witness against the catholic church?

There is no denying that the assumption of Mary is based on false teaching of a false writing that the catholic church condemned centuries ago.

When a church makes a false teacher a doctor of the church a saint that is enough to distrust.

What i have a problem with is a church that has decieved people with its unblilcal doctrines.

You have judged yourself by your own standard and found yourself lacking.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

If you and others want to call me a liar then you have a responsiblity to show this specifically. This is a good defintion of a lie:deliberately say something untrue: to say something that is not true in a conscious effort to deceive somebody
Differences of interpretations and views are not lies. What you must show is that i have deliberately misconstrued facts that i have presented. Please give me a couple of examples of my lying so we can see if that is truly the case.

Perhaps you want to call it careless and irresponsible abandonment of truth rather than a lie?

There is no denying that the assumption of Mary is based on false teaching of a false writing that the catholic church condemned centuries ago.

When a church makes a false teacher a doctor of the church a saint that is enough to distrust.

What i have a problem with is a church that has decieved people with its unblilcal doctrines.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Huh? Where did i say that in my comments anywhere that they are “infallible teachings and interpretations”?

Then maybe you should put a disclaimer in your signature line stating “All my absolute and judgemental sounding statements spoken against the Catholic Church are subject to my own human infallibility and are just conjecture and opinion and I am not responsible to God or Man for any misuse of any inaccuracies therein”.

Do you suppose God will let you claim irresponsible ignorance for any souls that get condemned to hell for believing you?

Here are examples of JA4 speaking as if JA4 has papal infallability:

There is no denying that the assumption of Mary is based on false teaching of a false writing that the catholic church condemned centuries ago.

When a **church makes a false teacher a doctor of the church a saint that is enough to distrust. **

What i have a problem with is **a church that has decieved (sp) people **with its unblilcal (sp) doctrines.

Christianity is not Catholicism. Catholicism is a subset of Christianity.

[ed: All while ignoring the fact that there is no term “Christianity” to be found in the bible ANYWHERE and its a term that now represents a fragmented teaching and false religion of man.]

This is your problem not mine. Here you have 2 popes essentially saying different things about the same thing. One pope condemns this and another makes a dogma of it. Who is right?

**Only the Scriptures alone are God-breathed. **

A tradition-discipline that says you must be a single and celibate to be a bishop which circumvents the clear teaching of Scripture on this does in fact nullify the Scriptures.

It sure looks like Pope JA IV is trying start his own new private catechism to me. If not please state publicly that you did not intend to be speaking ex-cathedra from your easy-chair when you pontificated your papal-bull here.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

There is no specific verse that i’m aware of although 2 Timothy 3:16-17 would be an excellent starting point for a study of what the scriptures says about itself . I’m making my case from the nature of the scriptures themselves i.e. inspired-inerrant. Only the Scriptures alone are God-breathed. This is my primary foundation.
Secondly, did Jesus ever use tradition as a basis for authority?

JA4 this style or speech sounds very much like another anti-Catholic who frequents these boards named Oldscholar. Can you please publicly deny that you are not his sock-puppet please nor are a a disciple nor co-congreational member with him in the same church?

James

 

[guanophore]

Huh? I have spoken the truth in regards to these doctrines. I have repeatedly demonstrated from Scripture and history that these doctrines and practices are not grounded in Scripture but are the speculations of men. If these doctrines were true they would be well supported by the Scriptures in every area. What is sad is that so many catholics have put all their faith in what their church teaches instead of the Word of God which leads to salvation and growth in Christ.

The part where you bear false witness is that you have been repeatedly informed that the Catholic faith is not “bible based”. The NT did not yet exist when Jesus founded His Church on the foundation of Apostles and Prophets, with Himself as the cornerstone. The Church documented her beliefs in the NT, but they are based on the Teaching of Jesus, not on the book you have in front of you. Yet you continually find fault with the faith of Catholics by falsely accusing that they are not “grounded in scripture”. We understand that you cannot see how they are, having been blinded by hatred and prejudice toward Catholics, but there is a big difference between saying “I don’t see it” and “it does not exist”. It does not exist for you, but it does for us.

You speak of “low blows”. You might want to read again what some of your fellow catholics have written about me. There has not been one case that i’m aware of where another catholic has ever said this was wrong. i have been slandered and insulted personally by many professed catholics. I have not insulted or slandered in return. This is the self righteous attitude you want to look at.

Your constant tearing, biting, and attacking the Holy Bride of Christ is sufficient insult and slander. Like Christ, Catholics identify themselves completely with the Bride, and that is why we are all wounded by your calumny.

 

[climer97007]

Once a person starts personal attacks and feels justified in them its not to far to the next step of torture etc as we saw in the inquisitions. All this shows is how weak you faith is.

Oh, bring in the Inquisitions now. Perfect timing. The legal system of 800 years ago in Europe has a few bad Inquisitors (The equivalent of our modern day Judges), and of course, the whole system is bad, right?

Like the Supreme Court of the USA decides that black men are inhuman, and we should conclude from that any trial before the Supreme Court is evil, that the whole country and the boat they sailed in on are evil, right? And their grandma and grandpa with them, right?

Grow up and put some big boy pants on.

Gene

 

[onenow1]

Hi, ja4
Qoute= Tomster
As this thread is winding down I am so very glad to you have made these admissions. They are telling. You are not infallible and your interpretations are your own. Wonderful! After making these admissions, how do you really know that your interpretations are correct bearing in mind, by your own admission, that you are not infallible. Please answer the question. How do you really know for sure? The only answer is that you do not know for sure. They are just your opinions and that is all they are

Quote= ja4 The same goes for you. You don’t know for sure either whether your church is deceiving you or not. You can claim it but your belief in this claim is also fallible. The mere fact an authority claims to declare it does not make it so. We both could be wrong Qoute.=OneNow1 An answer in realativism.

Your lack of a true faith shows in your above statement, ja4, you answer your own question on [Authority] ja4, and that is; that you need it ! That men have written the bible and we must have faith that the Hoy Spirit, guides them and the church that Jesus estabished. The Catholic Church the pilllar and fondation of truth.

May your journey bring you into the light !

Peace, OnedNow1

 

[justasking4]

onenow1;3535296]Hi, ja4
Qoute= Tomster
As this thread is winding down I am so very glad to you have made these admissions. They are telling. You are not infallible and your interpretations are your own. Wonderful! After making these admissions, how do you really know that your interpretations are correct bearing in mind, by your own admission, that you are not infallible. Please answer the question. How do you really know for sure? The only answer is that you do not know for sure. They are just your opinions and that is all they are

Quote= ja4 The same goes for you. You don’t know for sure either whether your church is deceiving you or not. You can claim it but your belief in this claim is also fallible. The mere fact an authority claims to declare it does not make it so. We both could be wrong Qoute.=OneNow1 An answer in realativism.

How so? How is my answer in reatativism?

Your lack of a true faith shows in your above statement, ja4, you answer your own question on [Authority] ja4, and that is; that you need it ! That men have written the bible and we must have faith that the Hoy Spirit, guides them and the church that Jesus estabished. The Catholic Church the pilllar and fondation of truth.

How do you know when your church is being guided by the HS or not? Think about the inquisitions for a moment. They went on for centuries with the full approval of the popes i.e. vicars of Christ who you would think were guided by the HS. How could these vicars of Christ be responsible for such wicked evil?
Knowing these kinds of things, how can you trust your church at all times if you do?

May your journey bring you into the light !

Peace, OnedNow1

ditto

 

[justasking4]

You have judged yourself by your own standard and found yourself lacking.

James

 

[justasking4]

JA4 this style or speech sounds very much like another anti-Catholic who frequents these boards named Oldscholar. Can you please publicly deny that you are not his sock-puppet please nor are a a disciple nor co-congreational member with him in the same church?

James

:banghead:

 

[justasking4]

Oh, bring in the Inquisitions now. Perfect timing. The legal system of 800 years ago in Europe has a few bad Inquisitors (The equivalent of our modern day Judges), and of course, the whole system is bad, right?

Like the Supreme Court of the USA decides that black men are inhuman, and we should conclude from that any trial before the Supreme Court is evil, that the whole country and the boat they sailed in on are evil, right? And their grandma and grandpa with them, right?

Grow up and put some big boy pants on.

Gene

:bowdown:

 

[Church_Militant]

The same goes for you. You don’t know for sure either whether your church is deceiving you or not

. You can claim it but your belief in this claim is also fallible. The mere fact an authority claims to declare it does not make it so. We both could be wrong. Hogwash! I personally carefully study to show my self approve unto God rightly dividing the word of truth, and it was as a result of that very study (ever ongoing) that I came to reject the errors of the reformation and their modern step children and embrace the factually accurate teachings of the Catholic faith. It was really very simple…one compares the Bible to what is taught and what the Christian church has taught and written for 2,000 years and then compare it to modern teachings and the community with the closer adherence to those things is the original full gospel church…in this case the Catholic Church.

Deception: Yeah it’s out there alright.

The faith that was handed down (Jude 3) is not the same faith that is in the catholic church.

More hogwash! I’m glad you chose to use the epistle of St. Jude as your citation, because it is his that clearly shows the reliance of the Lord and the apostles on Sacred Tradition in that he cites three different traditional texts for information directly related to his teaching.

Jude knew nothing of the marian doctrines, purgatory etc.

Unqualified assumption, since you do not know that because you nor anyone else can assert that St, Jude knew or didn’t know. However, I might point out that it is very likely that The Blessed Virgin was still alive at the time of his letter, in which case he would not write about it because it simply had not yet occurred.

I have demonstrated repeatedly that unbiblical nature of these doctrines.

If you say so… I sure haven’t seen it. However, I would also point out that Mary is the second most unique person in all of human history behind only Our Lord Himself and if God chose to assume the few named patriarchs and prophets of the OT that He did then it is quite logical that He did the same with the Blessed Virgin for those same reasons. Bear in mind that the New Testament also says that many saints rose from the dead and were seen in Jerusalem after Our Lord died. (Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.)
If these arose, then why NOT the Blessed Virgin assumed?! O ye of little faith…

You and other catholic as far as I have seen have not come even come close to demonstrating that these were the beliefs of Jesus and His apostles. Your church goes far beyond what Jude is speaking of.

Not true and your own citation refutes you.

Nor do yours and countless other catholics. You and all men and women are also fallible just as I am.

Yet you will tell us that your interpretation is inspired by the Holy Spirit even though it contradicts the New Testament and the writings of the early church as well as 2,000 years of Christian teaching. (Not to mention even other n-C Christian communities) How then can yours be correct much less infallible? You are wrong to try to argue that since you have far less credibility on your best day than the Catholic Church does on its worst.

Its my understanding that this was not always believed in the church.

If you want to use that as an argument then you need to forsake your current beliefs because it is far more than just any one person’s understanding that Sola Scriptura and all the cascading errors derived from it “was not always believed in the church”, in fact, it was never believed by either the New Testament writers nor by the ECF. Here again, your own argument refutes you.

Isn’t it true that popes were not always regarded as being infallible?

No…the fact is that that began in Matthew 16:18-20.

What do you mean by “Tradition”? Is it something not in Scripture or is it another way of saying Scripture?

In this sense, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is both. The principle of Gos assuming those He chooses who have served faithfully is well established in the Old Testament, and the accounts of the assumption of the Blessed Virgin are of course extra biblical and embraced by the church which is fine since nowhere in the Word of God does it say that scripture is either the sole source or authority for all that Christians believe. That’s a modern new wind of doctrinal error and a teaching of man.

 

[Church_Militant]

JA4 this style or speech sounds very much like another anti-Catholic who frequents these boards named Oldscholar. Can you please publicly deny that you are not his sock-puppet please nor are a a disciple nor co-congreational member with him in the same church?

James

I disagree James… they have often been on at the same time and their style of argument is not the same.

I think JA4 is his own person, though he and OS may share some of the same errors.

 

[Church_Militant]

How do you know when your church is being guided by the HS or not? Think about the inquisitions for a moment. They went on for centuries with the full approval of the popes i.e. vicars of Christ who you would think were guided by the HS. How could these vicars of Christ be responsible for such wicked evil?

I don’t know that there was wicked evil done by the Inquisition…in fact many accounts that I have read say that people who were busted by the civil authorities often appealed to the Inquisition because they knew they would be more lenient.

And of course,while you’re on this binge here be sure to wash your hands of your own doctrinal heritage where similar and worse things were committed by Protestants against Catholics. In fact, right here in this country the Salem witch trials were not carried out by Catholics but by the Puritans…who were…(wait for it.) Protestants. The persecutions of my own Irish ancestors by Protestants led to a very long and difficult time of civil unrest in Ireland, and the persecution of other Irish Catholics here in the U.S. led to the San Patricios unit of Irish Americans fighting for the Mexicans in that war. I won’t waste time on “the Know Nothings” or anything else, but let’s not try to pretend that your own historical ties leaves you any less tainted. If you use that to deny trusting the Catholic Church then you have no basis upon which to trust any of the n-C derivatives.

Knowing these kinds of things, how can you trust your church at all times if you do?

Far more easily than the reformers and their modern step children. Their glaring errors disqualify them across the board in most cases. Their misconduct over time has been about the same as some Catholics.