Non-Catholic Christians: Mary, mother of the Church?

[JMM1957]

• What I have learned is that this seems to be true with OT Hebrew. For example Genesis 14:14 uses the word: ’ā·ḥîw which is translated for different meanings of relationship.

New International Version
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Which when Abram had heard, to wit, that his brother Lot was taken, he numbered of the servants born in his house, three hundred and eighteen well appointed: and pursued them to Dan.

International Standard Version
When Abram heard that his nephew had been taken prisoner, he gathered together 318 of his trained men, who had been born in his household, and they went out in pursuit as far as Dan.

biblehub.com/hebrew/achiv_251.htm
**

• In the NT Greek there are words for kinsman/cousin/relative. For example Luke 1:36 uses the term syngenis** to mean cousin or relative

New International Version
Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:

International Standard Version
And listen! Elizabeth, your relative, has herself conceived a son in her old age, this woman who was rumored to be barren is in her sixth month.

biblehub.com/greek/sungenis_4773.htm

• However in Mark 6:3 the words adelphos and adelphai are used to mean brother and sisters and always mean brother and sisters.

New International Version
Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.

International Standard Version
This is the builder, the son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, isn’t it? His sisters are here with us, aren’t they?" And they were offended by him.

biblehub.com/greek/adelphos_80.htm
biblehub.com/greek/adelphai_79.htm

What I see from looking at the verses on BibleHub.com is that every time Jesus “brothers” are mentioned, the Greek word is similar to the word adelphos. A word like sungeneis or syngenis which means kinsmen is never used.

I do think that there is evidence in the early centuries that it was believed that Mary was a perpetual virgin despite evidence in the Bible such as:

Matthew 1:25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Luke 2:7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

And in Psalm 69 it is written
8 I am a foreigner to my own family,
a stranger to my own mother’s children;
9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

In John 2, the Apostles attribute Psalm 69:9 to Jesus when He overturned the money changers tables.
John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me."

I don’t feel that there is conclusive evidence to determine whether Mary had other children. It has never been a concern for me and something I rarely thought about until recent studies. What confuses me the most is why this makes a difference for Christianity at all.

This is what I came up with:

The confusion originates in Hebrew and Aramaic, the languages of most of the original Old Testament texts and of Christ. In these languages, no special word existed for cousin, nephew or aunt, half-brother or half-sister, or step-brother or step-sister; so they used the word brother or a circumlocution, such as in the case of a cousin, “the son of the brother of my father.” When the Old Testament was translated into Greek and the New Testament written in Greek, the word adelphos was used to capture all of these meanings for male relatives.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

• What I have learned is that this seems to be true with OT Hebrew. For example Genesis 14:14 uses the word: ’ā·ḥîw which is translated for different meanings of relationship.

New International Version
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan.

International Standard Version
When Abram heard that his nephew had been taken prisoner, he gathered together 318 of his trained men, who had been born in his household, and they went out in pursuit as far as Dan.

biblehub.com/hebrew/achiv_251.htm

• In the NT Greek there are words for kinsman/cousin/relative. For example Luke 1:36 uses the term syngenis to mean cousin or relative

New International Version
Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:

International Standard Version
And listen! Elizabeth, your relative, has herself conceived a son in her old age, this woman who was rumored to be barren is in her sixth month.

biblehub.com/greek/sungenis_4773.htm

• However in Mark 6:3 the words adelphos and adelphai are used to mean brother and sisters and always mean brother and sisters.

New International Version
Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.

International Standard Version
This is the builder, the son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon, isn’t it? His sisters are here with us, aren’t they?" And they were offended by him.

biblehub.com/greek/adelphos_80.htm
biblehub.com/greek/adelphai_79.htm

What I see from looking at the verses on BibleHub.com is that every time Jesus “brothers” are mentioned, the Greek word is similar to the word adelphos. A word like sungeneis or syngenis which means kinsmen is never used.

I do think that there is evidence in the early centuries that it was believed that Mary was a perpetual virgin despite evidence in the Bible such as:

Matthew 1:25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Luke 2:7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

And in Psalm 69 it is written
8 I am a foreigner to my own family,
a stranger to my own mother’s children;
9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

In John 2, the Apostles attribute Psalm 69:9 to Jesus when He overturned the money changers tables.
John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me."

I don’t feel that there is conclusive evidence to determine whether Mary had other children. It has never been a concern for me and something I rarely thought about until recent studies. What confuses me the most is why this makes a difference for Christianity at all.

Anyone who has ever had a step brother and sister that they were born and raised with knows that they become like the real thing, And in many cases you may not find out at all that they were not biological at all if they were very close.

I think it’s very likely Jesus had step brothers and sisters as Church tradition says Joseph was a older man and we think he was probably deceased long before Jesus died.

Looking at Psalm 69, Verse 9 is prophetic and what is referred to. Not verse 8. Even verse 5 talks about committing sins and Jesus obviously had none.

Psalm 69:4-6Contemporary English Version (CEV)

4 There are more people
who hate me for no reason
than there are hairs
on my head.
Many terrible enemies
want to destroy me, God.
Am I supposed to give back
something I didn’t steal?
5 You know my foolish sins.
Not one is hidden from you.
6 Lord God All-Powerful,
ruler of Israel,
don’t let me embarrass anyone

Examining Matthew 1:25

Matthew 1:25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Let’s look at another verse with the word “until” being used:

Matthew 5:26 New International Version
Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Read in it’s context and it’s talking about hell, at least according to protestants I have talked to. And you don’t get out of hell, ever. So the word “until” does not imply anything. Just means she did not have relations during or before her pregnancy. Likewise, in MATT 5:26, there will be a price to pay for those in hell, etc, etc

And in Luke 2:7, the word “firstborn” is used as a honorary term, doesn’t imply anything either. Firstborn male children were to be consecrated to the Lord ( Luke 2:23) and that is the emphasis here.

As a fundamentalist with zero understanding of 1st century Judea i thought this was a total slam dunk and that Mary had several other children. But then upon closer review realized i was wrong. The NT just doesn’t tell us either way.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

This is what I came up with:

The confusion originates in Hebrew and Aramaic, the languages of most of the original Old Testament texts and of Christ. In these languages, no special word existed for cousin, nephew or aunt, half-brother or half-sister, or step-brother or step-sister; so they used the word brother or a circumlocution, such as in the case of a cousin, “the son of the brother of my father.” When the Old Testament was translated into Greek and the New Testament written in Greek, the word adelphos was used to capture all of these meanings for male relatives.

I could see adelphos being used for step brothers/sisters. Makes sense there but not for cousins unless they were the live in type.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

This topic should probably be brought up in another thread, but since we are talking about Mary, mother of the Church, I thought I might bring it up here. I think I have a pretty good feel for how the responses will be from non-Catholics, specifically Protestants, but how do you view the Marian apparitions and how they relate to the Catholic belief in Mary’s important role in being Mother of the Church? Could it be that God is allowing these visions to occur so that it clarifies Mary’s motherhood of us from Scripture? I realize that its not only non-Catholics that have a difficult time with honoring Mary properly, but there are even Catholics that question some of the dogma’s of the Church.

As a fundamentalist i totally saw the apparitions as demonic in nature, meant to trick people into taking their eyes off God.

Now, I’m rather indifferent about them. If they were required for belief I may have never converted, tbh. I’ve read the transcripts on what was said at Fatima and Guadalupe and didn’t care for what I heard overall. And personally i wish the Church would examine these things but not make any kind of proclamations about them. Because just like the Marian dogmas, they tend to scare people away.

 

[JMM1957]

As I read the whole Psalm 69 I don’t see it as a prophecy about the Messiah, it doesn’t seem to fit in many respects. I realize that in many cases prophecy has a dual meaning, for the immediate time and sometime in the future, but in many instances, a verse of OT Scripture is quoted and applied to someone in the NT, like Jesus or some other person, but the whole OT passage may not apply, as in this case.

Just wanted to reword part of my response as it doesn’t reflect what I meant correctly. I do see Psalm 69 having some Messianic prophesies, but much of the Psalm doesn’t apply to Jesus himself, for example, verse 5 stands out, which says the person had done some wrongs, surely not Jesus.

 

[JMM1957]

As a fundamentalist i totally saw the apparitions as demonic in nature, meant to trick people into taking their eyes off God.

Now, I’m rather indifferent about them. If they were required for belief I may have never converted, tbh. I’ve read the transcripts on what was said at Fatima and Guadalupe and didn’t care for what I heard overall. And personally i wish the Church would examine these things but not make any kind of proclamations about them. Because just like the Marian dogmas, they tend to scare people away.

But you have to ask yourself, if the Church teaches all truth in faith and morals as we believe, then why should they worry about scaring people off? Isn’t the truth important enough that it should be proclaimed?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

But you have to ask yourself, if the Church teaches all truth in faith and morals as we believe, then why should they worry about scaring people off? Isn’t the truth important enough that it should be proclaimed?

IMHO, I think there is a much greater chance of Christians avoiding a rough stay in purgatory if they become Catholic. We want them in our fold now rather than risk them facing judgment while imperfectly joined to the church. So I don’t want to scare them away for their own good.

But you are correct, Truth is what it is.

 

[JMM1957]

As a fundamentalist i totally saw the apparitions as demonic in nature, meant to trick people into taking their eyes off God.

Now, I’m rather indifferent about them. If they were required for belief I may have never converted, tbh. I’ve read the transcripts on what was said at Fatima and Guadalupe and didn’t care for what I heard overall. And personally i wish the Church would examine these things but not make any kind of proclamations about them. Because just like the Marian dogmas, they tend to scare people away.

Just wanted to say, I know lots and lots of Catholics who are very devoted to Mary and her intercession for us, and at no time do they exalt her to a position that would not be proper in relation to Jesus. As Catholics, we look at the Communion of Saints as alive, actually more alive than we here on earth are, and we can ask for the prayers of our heavenly family just as we ask those on earth for prayers, there is no difference.

There are many things in this life that can cause us to take our eyes off God, we have to make a daily effort to keep things in the proper perspective.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Just wanted to say, I know lots and lots of Catholics who are very devoted to Mary and her intercession for us, and at no time do they exalt her to a position that would not be proper in relation to Jesus. As Catholics, we look at the Communion of Saints as alive, actually more alive than we here on earth are, and we can ask for the prayers of our heavenly family just as we ask those on earth for prayers, there is no difference.

There are many things in this life that can cause us to take our eyes off God, we have to make a daily effort to keep things in the proper perspective.

Fundamentalists have a totally different understanding of the communion of Saints.It’s almost as if they believe in 2 bodies of Christ(one in heaven and one here)

And I believe they also misinterpret 2 Corinthians 5:8 which leads to even more inaccuracies.

 

[JMM1957]

Fundamentalists have a totally different understanding of the communion of Saints.It’s almost as if they believe in 2 bodies of Christ(one in heaven and one here)

And I believe they also misinterpret 2 Corinthians 5:8 which leads to even more inaccuracies.

Yes, I can see how they would.

 

[Michael68]

Fundamentalists have a totally different understanding of the communion of Saints.It’s almost as if they believe in 2 bodies of Christ(one in heaven and one here)

And I believe they also misinterpret 2 Corinthians 5:8 which leads to even more inaccuracies.

Fundamentalists say the dead can’t hear. A complete misunderstanding of the Communion of Saints

 

[Hatikvah]

Fundamentalists say the dead can’t hear. A complete misunderstanding of the Communion of Saints

No, they define the communion of saints as “anyone who followed Christ while they were alive,” so it is irrelevant to them whether the saints do anything.

Also, I find the term “Fundamentalist” very misleading because it only applies to Evangelicals here, but there are Fundamentalist Catholics (certain Traditionalists) as well as Fundamentalist Mormons (you know, those groups) and Eastern Orthodox (Old Believers, Old Calendarists).

What is so fundamental about them? Nothing, there’s really no worthwhile difference between them and everyone else in their respective groups. It might as well keep being used as a pejorative for Evangelicals.

 

[Michael68]

No, they define the communion of saints as “anyone who followed Christ while they were alive,” so it is irrelevant to them whether the saints do anything.

Also, I find the term “Fundamentalist” very misleading because it only applies to Evangelicals here, but there are Fundamentalist Catholics (certain Traditionalists) as well as Fundamentalist Mormons (you know, those groups) and Eastern Orthodox (Old Believers, Old Calendarists).

What is so fundamental about them? Nothing, there’s really no worthwhile difference between them and everyone else in their respective groups. It might as well keep being used as a pejorative for Evangelicals.

Ok, protestants have told me that the dead can’t hear. They do not believe the Saints in heaven hear us

 

[JMM1957]

Ok, protestants have told me that the dead can’t hear. They do not believe the Saints in heaven hear us

Do they also believe they cannot see us?

 

[Michael68]

Do they also believe they cannot see us?

Yes. They believe dead is dead. They tell me Mary is dead and can’t hear my prayers and has no concern for me. I know this is false

 

[wmscott]

Fundamentalists say the dead can’t hear. A complete misunderstanding of the Communion of Saints

So I wonder how they explain when Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3)

 

[jane_doe]

Ok, protestants have told me that the dead can’t hear. They do not believe the Saints in heaven hear us

That depends on who you’re talking to (Protestants are a very diverse group with very diverse beliefs)

 

[JMM1957]

That depends on who you’re talking to (Protestants are a very diverse group with very diverse beliefs)

Whenever I hear this said I always think of this verse:

I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction.** 1 Cor. 1:10**

 

[jane_doe]

Whenever I hear this said I always think of this verse:

I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction.** 1 Cor. 1:10**

Just because you think it’s wrong (I do too) doesn’t change what it is.

 

[JMM1957]

Just because you think it’s wrong (I do too) doesn’t change what it is.

Yes, and what it has always been. So what we need to do is continue to work for that unity that Paul was pleading for.