Non-Catholic Christians: Mary, mother of the Church?

[steve_b]

IMHO, I think there is a much greater chance of Christians avoiding a rough stay in purgatory if they become Catholic. We want them in our fold now rather than risk them facing judgment while imperfectly joined to the church. So I don’t want to scare them away for their own good.

But you are correct, Truth is what it is.

As a fundamentalist i totally saw the apparitions as demonic in nature, meant to trick people into taking their eyes off God.

Now, I’m rather indifferent about them. If they were required for belief I may have never converted, tbh. I’ve read the transcripts on what was said at Fatima and Guadalupe and didn’t care for what I heard overall. And personally i wish the Church would examine these things but not make any kind of proclamations about them. Because just like the Marian dogmas, they tend to scare people away.

Your posts got me thinking of a specific episode from scripture

Jesus, God in the flesh,( as a result of Mary’s yes ) gave His “disciples” a face to face lesson, in the bread of life discourse. Many of his disciples found HIS teaching too offensive to even listen to it, so they walked away from Jesus, and no longer walked with Him.

Imagine that. Jesus teaching something that actually offended many and actually scared many of His own disciples away.

What did Jesus do with that?

• Did Jesus go after them? Nope!
• Did Jesus pursue them, for a 2nd chance to convince them of truth? Nope!
• Was Jesus a bad communicator, maybe He was talking over their heads? Nope!
• He let them go!

Personally, I find that episode, and that conclusion, one of the scariest in all of scripture. Why? Because God won’t violate the free will He gives every human being to make choices freely, and even though He could, doesn’t force ANYONE against their will, to say yes, or to believe what is true.

God wasn’t successful with THEM who left, because They didn’t believe. And He knew that about them in advance. But He gave them the teaching anyway. He gave them the chance to freely accept or reject truth. It’s instructive for each one of us as well. Jesus showed us, that If He can’t convince one to accept a teaching who doesn’t believe, how could any of US be upset if we aren’t convincing with anyone who doesn’t believe?

Aquinas condensed this into one sentence.

“For those who have faith no explanation is necessary, for those without faith no explanation is sufficient”

The Bread of life discourse:
not even God almighty will convince nor force one of accepting truth, if one doesn’t believe or refuses to believe.

(all emphasis mine)

Jn 6:
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”d] 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper′na-um. 60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?e] 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Will you also go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

I personally find it liberating to believe in the Church , 1 Timothy 3:15 , thus confident to believe the teaching of the Church that Mary is mother of the Church.

963 , 975

 

[JMM1957]

Your posts got me thinking of a specific episode from scripture

Jesus, God in the flesh,( as a result of Mary’s yes ) gave His “disciples” a face to face lesson, in the bread of life discourse. Many of his disciples found HIS teaching too offensive to even listen to it, so they walked away from Jesus, and no longer walked with Him.

Imagine that. Jesus teaching something that actually offended many and actually scared many of His own disciples away.

What did Jesus do with that?

• Did Jesus go after them? Nope!
• Did Jesus pursue them, for a 2nd chance to convince them of truth? Nope!
• Was Jesus a bad communicator, maybe He was talking over their heads? Nope!
• He let them go!

Personally, I find that episode, and that conclusion, one of the scariest in all of scripture. Why? Because God won’t violate the free will He gives every human being to make choices freely, and even though He could, doesn’t force ANYONE against their will, to say yes, or to believe what is true.

God wasn’t successful with THEM who left, because They didn’t believe. And He knew that about them in advance. But He gave them the teaching anyway. He gave them the chance to freely accept or reject truth. It’s instructive for each one of us as well. Jesus showed us, that If He can’t convince one to accept a teaching who doesn’t believe, how could any of US be upset if we aren’t convincing with anyone who doesn’t believe?

Aquinas condensed this into one sentence.

“For those who have faith no explanation is necessary, for those without faith no explanation is sufficient”

The Bread of life discourse:
not even God almighty will convince nor force one of accepting truth, if one doesn’t believe or refuses to believe.

I personally find it liberating to believe in the Church , 1 Timothy 3:15 , thus confident to believe the teaching of the Church that Mary is mother of the Church.

963 , 975

“The truth will set you free”

 

[steve_b]

So I wonder how they explain when Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3)

Also

Lk 16:
19 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

Jesus, the one who judges the living and the dead, is telling the story.

 

[wmscott]

Also

Lk 16:
19 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

Jesus, the one who judges the living and the dead, is telling the story.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Your posts got me thinking of a specific episode from scripture

Jesus, God in the flesh,( as a result of Mary’s yes ) gave His “disciples” a face to face lesson, in the bread of life discourse. Many of his disciples found HIS teaching too offensive to even listen to it, so they walked away from Jesus, and no longer walked with Him.

Imagine that. Jesus teaching something that actually offended many and actually scared many of His own disciples away.

What did Jesus do with that?

• Did Jesus go after them? Nope!
• Did Jesus pursue them, for a 2nd chance to convince them of truth? Nope!
• Was Jesus a bad communicator, maybe He was talking over their heads? Nope!
• He let them go!

Personally, I find that episode, and that conclusion, one of the scariest in all of scripture. Why? Because God won’t violate the free will He gives every human being to make choices freely, and even though He could, doesn’t force ANYONE against their will, to say yes, or to believe what is true.

God wasn’t successful with THEM who left, because They didn’t believe. And He knew that about them in advance. But He gave them the teaching anyway. He gave them the chance to freely accept or reject truth. It’s instructive for each one of us as well. Jesus showed us, that If He can’t convince one to accept a teaching who doesn’t believe, how could any of US be upset if we aren’t convincing with anyone who doesn’t believe?

Aquinas condensed this into one sentence.

“For those who have faith no explanation is necessary, for those without faith no explanation is sufficient”

The Bread of life discourse:
not even God almighty will convince nor force one of accepting truth, if one doesn’t believe or refuses to believe.

I personally find it liberating to believe in the Church , 1 Timothy 3:15 , thus confident to believe the teaching of the Church that Mary is mother of the Church.

963 , 975

I totally get what you’re saying, but let’s look at the Orthodox church which holds similar beliefs on our Lady. Is that Church any less of a Church for not officially dogmatizing these things? For any uncomfortable protestants looking our way, they may break to that side to avoid being forced to believe things that appear to them to be excessive and non essential.

Protestants leaning our way and struggling with Marian dogmas totally have my sympathy. My message to them is continue searching and praying and God will help you with this but it may take some time to become clear. The Lord be with you.

Pax

 

[Lenten_ashes]

No, they define the communion of saints as “anyone who followed Christ while they were alive,” so it is irrelevant to them whether the saints do anything.

Also, I find the term “Fundamentalist” very misleading because it only applies to Evangelicals here, but there are Fundamentalist Catholics (certain Traditionalists) as well as Fundamentalist Mormons (you know, those groups) and Eastern Orthodox (Old Believers, Old Calendarists).

What is so fundamental about them? Nothing, there’s really no worthwhile difference between them and everyone else in their respective groups. It might as well keep being used as a pejorative for Evangelicals.

To me a fundamentalist protestant is someone who thinks everything is black or white. They have a extremely narrow perception of Christianity and the bible. You can be evangelical without being a fundamentalist

 

[jane_doe]

To me a fundamentalist protestant is someone who thinks everything is black or white. They have a extremely narrow perception of Christianity and the bible. You can be evangelical without being a fundamentalist

You can also be a fundamentalist without being a evangelical, such as a fundamentalist Catholic.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

You can also be a fundamentalist without being a evangelical, such as a fundamentalist Catholic.

Or a fundamentalist Mormon

 

[JMM1957]

You can also be a fundamentalist without being a evangelical, such as a fundamentalist Catholic.

You mean a Catholic who defends the faith and doesn’t succumb to modern day pressures to change their views? IOW, those that are stuck in the past theology wise?

 

[Hatikvah]

Ok, protestants have told me that the dead can’t hear. They do not believe the Saints in heaven hear us

Many Anglicans do, and many even pray to Mary. Lutherans at least believe that the dead in the Church can pray for Christians in general, and I don’t think that there’s very much description in Luther’s ideas.

I personally do believe that they can hear us (certain verses in Revelation can be taken to mean this, as well as European Christian ideas) and I sometimes ask the saints to pray for various causes.

Yes, and what it has always been. So what we need to do is continue to work for that unity that Paul was pleading for.

Ecumenism is simply a modern ideal to “unify” what has not been truly broken. No organization is perfect, and the Church can only seek God’s grace. There were differences in the early Church just as there are now (Jews and Gentiles; Gnostics, orthodox and syncretics; Quartodecimanians and Easter Sunday groups).

Perhaps we should all “come home” (as is often said of Protestants) to the Greek Old Calendarists. They’re waiting for everyone to see how superior the Julian liturgy calendar is to the Gregorian one.

To me a fundamentalist protestant is someone who thinks everything is black or white. They have a extremely narrow perception of Christianity and the bible. You can be evangelical without being a fundamentalist

So somebody who does not approve of anything in Christian practice that is not their own? That would entail the people from GotQuestions.org, CARM.org and many different organizations and ministries.

If that is so, then they are missing a key point: Christianity, just like every other major faith, is diverse in practice and tradition with different beliefs and ideas. They cannot accept this on a personal or an organizational level.

That probably would entail many Baptists, some other groups that would identify as Evangelical, but it can also entail various types of Mormons, Catholics, separatist Catholics (e.g., Old Catholics, Independent Catholics, some ultra-traditionalists), I guess some Eastern Orthodox, etc.

 

[JMM1957]

So when was this requirement for salvation added to Christianity? Did God give certain men the ability to add new requirements for salvation that weren’t taught by the Apostles? Why is it essential to believe these doctrines in order to know Jesus and His Gospel?

I don’t know if I would call it “new requirements”, but I can point out this passage in John 16 as possibly addressing your above questions.

"But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
8
And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation:
9
sin, because they do not believe in me;
10
righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see me;
11
condemnation, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.
12
** I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.**
13
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

If you don’t think that this attempts to answer your questions, then what do you understand the meaning of these verses to be (the bolded parts).

 

[Jake_Parker]

To me a fundamentalist protestant is someone who thinks everything is black or white. They have a extremely narrow perception of Christianity and the bible. You can be evangelical without being a fundamentalist

It’s true, for a few years I was a progressive evangelical (so was my church). Much different from a fundamentalist or conservative Evangelical Church.
Very interesting experience. A much different interpretation of certain parts of the Bible, lots of candles, and some icon stuff, quiet meditating, contemporary and traditional worship songs, prayer and Bible reading, and a sermon. There was a blend of mainline, evangelical, protestant, Catholic, all in one.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Many Anglicans do, and many even pray to Mary. Lutherans at least believe that the dead in the Church can pray for Christians in general, and I don’t think that there’s very much description in Luther’s ideas.

I personally do believe that they can hear us (certain verses in Revelation can be taken to mean this, as well as European Christian ideas) and I sometimes ask the saints to pray for various causes.

Ecumenism is simply a modern ideal to “unify” what has not been truly broken. No organization is perfect, and the Church can only seek God’s grace. There were differences in the early Church just as there are now (Jews and Gentiles; Gnostics, orthodox and syncretics; Quartodecimanians and Easter Sunday groups).

Perhaps we should all “come home” (as is often said of Protestants) to the Greek Old Calendarists. They’re waiting for everyone to see how superior the Julian liturgy calendar is to the Gregorian one.

So somebody who does not approve of anything in Christian practice that is not their own? That would entail the people from GotQuestions.org, CARM.org and many different organizations and ministries.

If that is so, then they are missing a key point: Christianity, just like every other major faith, is diverse in practice and tradition with different beliefs and ideas. They cannot accept this on a personal or an organizational level.

That probably would entail many Baptists, some other groups that would identify as Evangelical, but it can also entail various types of Mormons, Catholics, separatist Catholics (e.g., Old Catholics, Independent Catholics, some ultra-traditionalists), I guess some Eastern Orthodox, etc.

carm.org is a great example of rigid fundamentalism. They are quick to toss you in hell over there unless you agree with their often incorrect interpretation of the bible. The founder even has a list of “essentials” that all Christians must believe in order to be saved…created by his ownmind and hands of course, as no such table or chart exists in the bible.

I guess you could say a fundamentalist Catholic is someone who only wants Mass in Latin and wont receive the host from a Eucharistic minister.

 

[Hatikvah]

carm.org is a great example of rigid fundamentalism. They are quick to toss you in hell over there unless you agree with their often incorrect interpretation of the bible. The founder even has a list of “essentials” that all Christians must believe in order to be saved…created by his ownmind and hands of course, as no such table or chart exists in the bible.

Well, this author is quite exclusive of who a Christian is: carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity

Also, I find it ironic how sola fide does not mean faith in sola fide, but faith in Jesus, so it misunderstands its most obsessed-over doctrine:

Roman Catholicism denies salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Therefore, Roman Catholicism is outside of Christianity.

That’s just unfair. I think that the author’s article here comes down to, more or less, only Trinitarian Evangelical Protestants and Calvinists in particular are “true Christians.” Again, just… ignorant.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

It’s true, for a few years I was a progressive evangelical (so was my church). Much different from a fundamentalist or conservative Evangelical Church.
Very interesting experience. A much different interpretation of certain parts of the Bible, lots of candles, and some icon stuff, quiet meditating, contemporary and traditional worship songs, prayer and Bible reading, and a sermon. There was a blend of mainline, evangelical, protestant, Catholic, all in one.

Sounds very Anglican actually:thumbsup: you could be evagelical or more Catholic and they had services tor both styles in many cases. I respect those sort of denominations much more than the close minded ones who seeingly know it all.

I will say that even though i disagree with them a lot doctrinally, i respect the Baptist a great deal. While other denominations seem to be falling off a cliff morally, they aren’t one of them. Often times when Catholics are protesting outside a abortion mill, Baptists are right there with them. So God bless them for not caving in to the pressures of this evil world.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Well, this author is quite exclusive of who a Christian is: carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity

Also, I find it ironic how sola fide does not mean faith in sola fide, but faith in Jesus, so it misunderstands its most obsessed-over doctrine:

Lol ok confession time. I volunteered for that ministry for almost a decade. And Slick( the founder) would debate Catholic apologists on his radio show…and some of the first words out of his mouth were, i think you’re going to hell because Catholicism is not Christian (paraphrase)

Then he would proceed to get utterly destroyed by very humble and knowledgeable Catholic apologists lol.

You can find some of these on youtube (bonocore vs slick or sungensis vs Slick)

I wish all of Christendom acted more like yourself Hatikvah. Like a adult who just loves Christ and let’s God do the judging.

 

[Hatikvah]

Lol ok confession time. I volunteered for that ministry for almost a decade. And Slick( the founder) would debate Catholic apologists on his radio show…and some of the first words out of his mouth were, i think you’re going to hell because Catholicism is not Christian (paraphrase)

Wow, that’s straightforward about what Slick is trying to do… GotQuestions is a little more lenient on Catholics in some articles, though a little more extreme in others. This is one directly addressing Catholicism.

Then he would proceed to get utterly destroyed by very humble and knowledgeable Catholic apologists lol.

Sounds like it. I’ve read some things like that before.

I wish all of Christendom acted more like yourself Hatikvah. Like a adult who just loves Christ and let’s God do the judging.

Thank you, Lenten, that’s very kind. Also, I’m a youth, not yet a full adult.

As myself and someone else stated, you’ve been very calm and respectful towards us in this conversation. That’s great!

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Wow, that’s straightforward about what Slick is trying to do… GotQuestions is a little more lenient on Catholics in some articles, though a little more extreme in others. This is one directly addressing Catholicism.

Sounds like it. I’ve read some things like that before.

Thank you, Lenten, that’s very kind. Also, I’m a youth, not yet a full adult.

As myself and someone else stated, you’ve been very calm and respectful towards us in this conversation. That’s great!

Even more impressive if you are a youngster. Obviously raised very well.

Had my spats with gotquestions on facebook before for their usual anti Catholic position. To their credit they have not yet blocked me like another ministry recently did.

God Bless

 

[Michael68]

Even more impressive if you are a youngster. Obviously raised very well.

Had my spats with gotquestions on facebook before for their usual anti Catholic position. To their credit they have not yet blocked me like another ministry recently did.

God Bless

I was banned at christianchat.com for ongoing Catholic heresy

 

[Hatikvah]

I was banned at christianchat.com for ongoing Catholic heresy

A place where you get banned for “heresy,” even though there are Catholics everywhere, and they are the biggest group… interesting…

I wonder what they would do to a Jehovah’s Witness or to a Mormon, who they disagree with on doctrine even more.