Non-Catholic Christians: Mary, mother of the Church?

[Jake_Parker]

Right, catechesis and true desire to pick up our cross daily must follow.

How many of these conversions at Billy Graham type events are genuine? I guess only God knows.

The thing that is important, is that these people are at least exposed to Christianity.
They probably haven’t accepted Catholic specific teaching (such as the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc). But they will at least have a basis to grow from. A person’s faith should always be evolving, even if it’s a very slow process. There’s always something new that we can learn from the Holy Spirit through the Church.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The thing that is important, is that these people are at least exposed to Christianity.
They probably haven’t accepted Catholic specific teaching (such as the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc). But they will at least have a basis to grow from. A person’s faith should always be evolving, even if it’s a very slow process. There’s always something new that we can learn from the Holy Spirit through the Church.

Well said

 

[Jake_Parker]

Well said

I know for myself that I have a long way to go. I have never even received communion in the Catholic Church.

 

[steve_b]

They would say the Holy Spirit if they were protestant. Not sure what Orthodox would say

Does the HS say to Catholics that Mary is the mother of the Church but to Protestants Mary is NOT the mother of the Church? The HS isn’t the author of such confusion.

when I said I would ask this question, from post #[125 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14124718&postcount=125)

(emphasis mine)

“On matters of faith and morals, according to scripture and tradition, who has the credentials and the Divine authority to determine for us, what is essential vs non essential beliefs”?

The answer I was thinking of, to that question,

• scripture & tradition confirms, that the pillar and foundation of truth = the Church 1 Timothy 3:15.
• When there are disagreements on matters of faith and morals then, Jesus said take the disagreements to the Church. Matthew 18:17 , That way, we can conform to the manner Jesus prescribed, and as Jesus said, if one won’t listen even to the Church, what Church? (His Church that He established and gave all His promises to from the first century) ***then ***that’s where the Church can also apply the authority to consider that person anathema.

and we have seen already, examples of those who won’t follow even Jesus, even when He taught people face to face. #[100 ** (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14120892&postcount=100), **and Jesus doesn’t go after them

**He gave us THE CHURCH, to profess faith in. that has the credentials and Divine authority to teach the essentials, and to settle differences **

 

[steve_b]

Right, catechesis and true desire to pick up our cross daily must follow.

How many of these conversions at Billy Graham type events are genuine? I guess only God knows.

Also, if just saying “Lord” with one’s lips was enough, then Jesus would NOT have said the following. Matthew 7:21

 

[MichaelP3]

Rom 10:
9 if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

As an observation, It’s the first part of that statement “confess Jesus is Lord” that many people in actuality fail in .

Example:

**If **Jesus is really and truly Lord, then a person who confesses that, does whatever Jesus commands. THAT’s where people THINK they confess something when in actuality, they don’t do what they confess.

Or as James says (paraphrased) dont “tell” me you have faith, show me you have faith. A said faith is a dead faith

Same with what someone “confesses”

If a confession doesn’t demonstrate (lived out)what someone confesses, that confession is a dead confession, or maybe severey lacking in many elements of what it should have.,

Not really sure what the disagreement is here?

 

[JMM1957]

Finally replying to this after some while. I rather and sincerely wonder if Mary even knows what’s going on currently?

And what parts points to a different heaven? Refer me please? Heaven is supposed to be well … heaven. But I will take a look.

Can you please explain?

 

[steve_b]

Not really sure what the disagreement is here?

Okay, for starters, do you believe Mary is the mother of the Church?

 

[MichaelP3]

Okay, for starters, do you believe Mary is the mother of the Church?

Not really seeing the connection to the post I was replying to, but I think it is quite obvious I would say no to your next question.

 

[MichaelP3]

Can you please explain?

I didn’t elaborate previously because then I would get numerous posts and stuff that would argue for it (all of which I am sure I have heard) that I really don’t have the strength for.

As a mere human who went to heaven I would prefer that she enjoy the joys of heaven. Every depiction I ever see of her, she always looks very sad or cry. It is like we should think of her in this depressed sad state. It would sound to me that she is having a horrible time in heaven. I know these aren’t facts how she would be portrayed but it still makes one wonder.

Therefore I prefer to think of her as enjoying heaven. We don’t exactly know what heaven will be like but I’m sure it will be good.

So to clarify, from my side of thinking, praying to/through her, doesn’t mean she actually even hears anyone.

 

[cheezey]

The book of Hebrews says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.** Pretty sure she does know whats going on. As far as her intercession, its occuring only if God wills it.
**

Revelation 5 talks about the 24 elders carrying the prayers of the saints in heaven. This is believed to be 12 OT patriarchs and the NT apostles. So it looks like perhaps some sort of chores will be carried out. All though im certain it’s not going to be like bagging groceries at Walmart. Im sure its enjoyable.

chores? or the continued expression of God given talents?!
Maybe?!!

 

[JMM1957]

I didn’t elaborate previously because then I would get numerous posts and stuff that would argue for it (all of which I am sure I have heard) that I really don’t have the strength for.

As a mere human who went to heaven I would prefer that she enjoy the joys of heaven. Every depiction I ever see of her, she always looks very sad or cry. It is like we should think of her in this depressed sad state. It would sound to me that she is having a horrible time in heaven. I know these aren’t facts how she would be portrayed but it still makes one wonder.

Therefore I prefer to think of her as enjoying heaven. We don’t exactly know what heaven will be like but I’m sure it will be good.

So to clarify, from my side of thinking, praying to/through her, doesn’t mean she actually even hears anyone.

I think I understand your view, although you believe she is in heaven, she is beholding the beatific vision and has no connection to this world anymore, correct?

As for Mary looking sad or crying, its not much different than the way all canonized saints of the Church look in statues or pictures of them, most I would say have a serious look on their faces, I would say that’s just the way artists have always portrayed them. Smiling and laughing wouldn’t be appropriate facial expressions I’m thinking.

As for Mary, her sad or serious facial expressions are connected to her being the earthly mother of the Son of God, and her hope is for all to come to a knowledge of her Son and His mercy and forgiveness, and developing a personal relationship with Him. She is concerned with the conversion of heart, mind and soul, and not just us, but the whole world.

 

[steve_b]

Does the HS say to Catholics that Mary is the mother of the Church but to Protestants Mary is NOT the mother of the Church? The HS isn’t the author of such confusion.

when I said I would ask this question, from post #[125 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14124718&postcount=125)

(emphasis mine)

“On matters of faith and morals, according to scripture and tradition, who has the credentials and the Divine authority to determine for us, what is essential vs non essential beliefs”?

The answer I was thinking of, to that question,

• scripture & tradition confirms, that the pillar and foundation of truth = the Church 1 Timothy 3:15.
• When there are disagreements on matters of faith and morals then, Jesus said take the disagreements to the Church. Matthew 18:17 , That way, we can conform to the manner Jesus prescribed, and as Jesus said, if one won’t listen even to the Church, what Church? (His Church that He established and gave all His promises to from the first century) ***then ***that’s where the Church can also apply the authority to consider that person anathema.

and we have seen already, examples of those who won’t follow even Jesus, even when He taught people face to face. #[100 ** (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14120892&postcount=100), **and Jesus doesn’t go after them

**He gave us THE CHURCH, to profess faith in. that has the credentials and Divine authority to teach the essentials, and to settle differences **

Not really sure what the disagreement is here?

Okay, for starters, do you believe Mary is the mother of the Church?

Not really seeing the connection to the post I was replying to, but I think it is quite obvious I would say no to your next question.

Do you see the connection now?

 

[MichaelP3]

Put this one in there and remove the first one (For I never referred to it). Because then I am still lost

Do you see the connection now?

Originally Posted by steve b View Post
Rom 10:
9 if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

As an observation, It’s the first part of that statement “confess Jesus is Lord” that many people in actuality fail in .

Example:

If Jesus is really and truly Lord, then a person who confesses that, does whatever Jesus commands. THAT’s where people THINK they confess something when in actuality, they don’t do what they confess.

Or as James says (paraphrased) dont “tell” me you have faith, show me you have faith. A said faith is a dead faith

Same with what someone “confesses”

If a confession doesn’t demonstrate (lived out)what someone confesses, that confession is a dead confession, or maybe severey lacking in many elements of what it should have.,

 

[Dorothy]

Does the HS say to Catholics that Mary is the mother of the Church but to Protestants Mary is NOT the mother of the Church? The HS isn’t the author of such confusion.

when I said I would ask this question, from post #[125 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14124718&postcount=125)

(emphasis mine)

“On matters of faith and morals, according to scripture and tradition, who has the credentials and the Divine authority to determine for us, what is essential vs non essential beliefs”?

The answer I was thinking of, to that question,

• scripture & tradition confirms, that the pillar and foundation of truth = the Church 1 Timothy 3:15.
• When there are disagreements on matters of faith and morals then, Jesus said take the disagreements to the Church. Matthew 18:17 , That way, we can conform to the manner Jesus prescribed, and as Jesus said, if one won’t listen even to the Church, what Church? (His Church that He established and gave all His promises to from the first century) ***then ***that’s where the Church can also apply the authority to consider that person anathema.

and we have seen already, examples of those who won’t follow even Jesus, even when He taught people face to face. #[100 ** (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14120892&postcount=100), **and Jesus doesn’t go after them

**He gave us THE CHURCH, to profess faith in. that has the credentials and Divine authority to teach the essentials, and to settle differences **

Amen!

 

[steve_b]

Put this one in there and remove the first one (For I never referred to it). Because then I am still lost*

Originally Posted by steve b View Post
Rom 10:
9 if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

As an observation, It’s the first part of that statement “confess Jesus is Lord” that many people in actuality fail in .

Example:

If Jesus is really and truly Lord, then a person who confesses that, does whatever Jesus commands. THAT’s where people THINK they confess something when in actuality, they don’t do what they confess.

Or as James says (paraphrased) dont “tell” me you have faith, show me you have faith. A said faith is a dead faith

Same with what someone “confesses”

If a confession doesn’t demonstrate (lived out)what someone confesses, that confession is a dead confession, or maybe severey lacking in many elements of what it should have.,

If you are still lost, let’s try another approach

The title of the thread is

"Re: Non-Catholic Christians: Mary, mother of the Church?"

My approach to this was from a historical basis, AND from the basis of authority. I asked the question, Who specifically then, has the bonafide authority properly referenced of course , from scripture and Tradition, to teach and determine matters of faith & morals?. #[142 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14129892&postcount=142)

Are we okay on this so far?

So then let’s consider

Jesus is God. He is the Word and the Word is God John 1:1
Mary is Jesus mother in the flesh, therefore Mary is the mother of God Luke 1:43

Are we still okay on this so far?

then we consider

Christ body which He received from Mary, is also the Church Colossians 1:24 , Since Mary is Christ’s mother, Mary is mother of the Church (Christ’s body) as well.

How so you ask? Mary is the woman of . Revelation 12:17 , That describes a lot of her spiritual offspring…agreed? Only one person Jesus, physically came from her womb. We’re talking about spiritual offspring now. And who specifically are these offspring?

Mary then, is the mother of, and her children are, all those who are in her son’s Church. What Church is THAT you ask? To find **that **Church, go back DEEP in history. Look for the name of the Church in writing properly referenced going back to the beginning. That’s why I also posted this link #34

IMV, the question of the thread was more complex than what it seemed on the surface. There is a lot buried in the question

• Non-Catholic Christians
• Mary as mother
• Mary as mother of the Church

 

[MichaelP3]

If you are still lost, let’s try another approach

The title of the thread is

"Re: Non-Catholic Christians: Mary, mother of the Church?"

My approach to this was from a historical basis, AND from the basis of authority. I asked the question, Who specifically then, has the bonafide authority properly referenced of course , from scripture and Tradition, to teach and determine matters of faith & morals?. #[142 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14129892&postcount=142)

Are we okay on this so far?

So then let’s consider

Jesus is God. He is the Word and the Word is God John 1:1
Mary is Jesus mother in the flesh, therefore Mary is the mother of God Luke 1:43

Are we still okay on this so far?

then we consider

Christ body which He received from Mary, is also the Church Colossians 1:24 , Since Mary is Christ’s mother, Mary is mother of the Church (Christ’s body) as well.

How so you ask? Mary is the woman of . Revelation 12:17 , That describes a lot of her spiritual offspring…agreed? Only one person Jesus, physically came from her womb. We’re talking about spiritual offspring now. And who specifically are these offspring?

Mary then, is the mother of, and her children are, all those who are in her son’s Church. What Church is THAT you ask? To find **that **Church, go back DEEP in history. Look for the name of the Church in writing properly referenced going back to the beginning. That’s why I also posted this link #34

IMV, the question of the thread was more complex than what it seemed on the surface. There is a lot buried in the question

• Non-Catholic Christians
• Mary as mother
• Mary as mother of the Church

Fair thinking and Logic. Not really that foreign to me.

Actually I was just referring to that one single post that went on and on about that Romans verse. Didn’t see the connection but if you meant it in the light of the thread topic, by all means then I can start to comprehend.

I just have a question? Your logic to get to an answer follows a path. It is not just BAM there is the answer. So this leads me to the question? Although I’d prefer not to debate it much further as it always ends the same way.

By stating it in such a way as you have that “Mary gave Jesus his body” and then you go on. In a physical sense I guess this is true. Jesus the human did enter the earth through Mary. But Mary has just the same “power” to create human beings as me and you. Sounds to me like I should thank my mom for my brown eyes and square jaw as if she could actually have decided I should not have that.

So if a mother can not even decide on the colour of her son’s eyes how so in any sense for a Human/God to be born and any attribute related?

(And going DEEP in history is exactly what made my beliefs much more clear. History is exactly the reason I am Protestant)

 

[MichaelP3]

I think I understand your view, although you believe she is in heaven, she is beholding the beatific vision and has no connection to this world anymore, correct?

As for Mary looking sad or crying, its not much different than the way all canonized saints of the Church look in statues or pictures of them, most I would say have a serious look on their faces, I would say that’s just the way artists have always portrayed them. Smiling and laughing wouldn’t be appropriate facial expressions I’m thinking.

As for Mary, her sad or serious facial expressions are connected to her being the earthly mother of the Son of God, and her hope is for all to come to a knowledge of her Son and His mercy and forgiveness, and developing a personal relationship with Him. She is concerned with the conversion of heart, mind and soul, and not just us, but the whole world.

Yes I can agree with all you said. And yes I am pretty certain she is in heaven. She could have been assumed or died. She could have had other children or not. She could have stayed a virgin or not. I agree these are all possibilities, but either way it wouldn’t change anything in my opinion.

I always think the only difference we see of people in hell and heaven would be some flames or a depiction of some demon in the background. Further, the people and their expressions are always the same. It’s a depiction I know.

 

[Michael68]

Fair thinking and Logic. Not really that foreign to me.

Actually I was just referring to that one single post that went on and on about that Romans verse. Didn’t see the connection but if you meant it in the light of the thread topic, by all means then I can start to comprehend.

I just have a question? Your logic to get to an answer follows a path. It is not just BAM there is the answer. So this leads me to the question? Although I’d prefer not to debate it much further as it always ends the same way.

By stating it in such a way as you have that “Mary gave Jesus his body” and then you go on. In a physical sense I guess this is true. Jesus the human did enter the earth through Mary. But Mary has just the same “power” to create human beings as me and you. Sounds to me like I should thank my mom for my brown eyes and square jaw as if she could actually have decided I should not have that.

So if a mother can not even decide on the colour of her son’s eyes how so in any sense for a Human/God to be born and any attribute related?

(And going DEEP in history is exactly what made my beliefs much more clear. History is exactly the reason I am Protestant)

I don’t understand how history made you protestant when the history is Catholic

 

[Lenten_ashes]

(And going DEEP in history is exactly what made my beliefs much more clear. History is exactly the reason I am Protestant)

Can i ask you a question? Not to sound unruly but what exactly were you reading?

Most of the folks I know who started really objectively studying history(meaning mainly Church history) End up becoming Catholic or the very least Orthodox or Anglican if they cant stomach Marian dogma or Papal authority.

Curious because I have seen you say this on multiple occasions.

Thanks