Non-Catholic Christians...

[shark76z]

Where do they get the idea that Catholics: pray to and/or worship Mary and/or Saints and/or the Pope and/or statues? How long has this “theory” been around and who started it?

 

[crazzeto]

Well originally it started with the iconoclast heresy, but Luther & Co revived it (not the Marian part actually) for their little party.

 

[loneviking]

Well, let’s see.

First there’s the Rosary with ‘Holy Mother Mary, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death’.

There are the articles and calls for recognizing Mary as co-redemptrix, and how you could avoid praying to her at that point, I don’t know.

You have the Marian devotees, that the Catholic church has never renounced despite their extreme views.

There’s the statutes that you put up and then pray in front of or too. Catholics bury a St. Joseph statute upside down and say a prayer to him that their house will sell. I mean, are you seriously denying that Catholics teach and pray for intercession from the saints? I hear that all the time on EWTN!

I appreciate the saints of the past, read their writings and absorb the teachings that are good and Biblical, recognizing them as part of that ‘great cloud of witnesses’. But, I draw the line at praying to them.

 

[shark76z]

I mean, are you seriously denying that Catholics teach and pray for intercession from the saints?

Catholics really don’t pray to Mary or Saints. You have to understand the Intercession theology. Take a random prayer: The “Regina Coeli” for example.

…Pray for us to God…

“Pray for us”. Catholics ask Mary to pray for them. They are not praying to them.

Here’s an example:

If I broke my leg, and say “Mary, pray to the Lord that my leg be heeled.”, I’m not asking Mary to heel it, rather, to pray to the Lord for it to be heeled.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well, let’s see.

First there’s the Rosary with ‘Holy Mother Mary, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death’.

There are the articles and calls for recognizing Mary as co-redemptrix, and how you could avoid praying to her at that point, I don’t know.

You have the Marian devotees, that the Catholic church has never renounced despite their extreme views.

There’s the statutes that you put up and then pray in front of or too. Catholics bury a St. Joseph statute upside down and say a prayer to him that their house will sell. I mean, are you seriously denying that Catholics teach and pray for intercession from the saints? I hear that all the time on EWTN!

I appreciate the saints of the past, read their writings and absorb the teachings that are good and Biblical, recognizing them as part of that ‘great cloud of witnesses’. But, I draw the line at praying to them.

Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

Thought I’d post it for you, since you didn’t quite word it correctly.

The St. Joseph thing is a cultural practice and not a Church dogma.

 

[CMatt25]

Just as they mix up “pray for us” with “pray to” they also mix up “honor and remembrance” with “worship”.

Hey to all my detractors who say I don’t agree with anything and say I always post dissent, look at that!

 

[kimmielittle]

Well, let’s see.

First there’s the Rosary with ‘Holy Mother Mary, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death’.

There are the articles and calls for recognizing Mary as co-redemptrix, and how you could avoid praying to her at that point, I don’t know.

You have the Marian devotees, that the Catholic church has never renounced despite their extreme views.

There’s the statutes that you put up and then pray in front of or too. Catholics bury a St. Joseph statute upside down and say a prayer to him that their house will sell. I mean, are you seriously denying that Catholics teach and pray for intercession from the saints? I hear that all the time on EWTN!

I appreciate the saints of the past, read their writings and absorb the teachings that are good and Biblical, recognizing them as part of that ‘great cloud of witnesses’. But, I draw the line at praying to them.

Hiyas

I think your former Adventist ideas are showing.

The Saints are in Heaven
We are on earth.

You are someplace
I am here

If I want you to pray with me / for me - I have to make contact with you.
I would make a phone call -** to you ** and ask you to pray with / for me.

I do not pray to you

I hope this helps

 

[JRKH]

Well, let’s see.

First there’s the Rosary with ‘Holy Mother Mary, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death’.

There are the articles and calls for recognizing Mary as co-redemptrix, and how you could avoid praying to her at that point, I don’t know.

You have the Marian devotees, that the Catholic church has never renounced despite their extreme views.

There’s the statutes that you put up and then pray in front of or too. Catholics bury a St. Joseph statute upside down and say a prayer to him that their house will sell. I mean, are you seriously denying that Catholics teach and pray for intercession from the saints? I hear that all the time on EWTN!

I appreciate the saints of the past, read their writings and absorb the teachings that are good and Biblical, recognizing them as part of that ‘great cloud of witnesses’. But, I draw the line at praying to them.

I heard something very interesting on a program the other day about the word “Pray”
The question was asked of an Anglican English guest wha the word “pray” means in England where it is used on offical documents and such.
Her answer was that it is essentially a “request” as in “Pray give us your testimony”. So even if we were to say that we “pray to” the saints this does not equate to “worship”. Since praying to a saint is simply making a request of them.
That is what “praying for intercession” really is.

Having said that I do agree that there are some excesses by individuals in the veneration of the Blessed Mother. As much as I Love her and am glad for her Loving intercession on our behalf, I am sure it saddens her to see how some are driven away from the Church by these excesses.

Peace
James

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Just as they mix up “pray for us” with “pray to” they also mix up “honor and remembrance” with “worship”.

Hey to all my detractors who say I don’t agree with anything and say I always post dissent, look at that!

Lol, wow… I tend to troll a lot of threads you are on and all I can say is

I heard something very interesting on a program the other day about the word “Pray”
The question was asked of an Anglican English guest wha the word “pray” means in England where it is used on offical documents and such.
Her answer was that it is essentially a “request” as in “Pray give us your testimony”. So even if we were to say that we “pray to” the saints this does not equate to “worship”. Since praying to a saint is simply making a request of them.
That is what “praying for intercession” really is.

Having said that I do agree that there are some excesses by individuals in the veneration of the Blessed Mother. As much as I Love her and am glad for her Loving intercession on our behalf, I am sure it saddens her to see how some are driven away from the Church by these excesses.

Peace
James

Thanks for posting about the word pray. The whole issue with this stems from, IMHO a lack of a theological understanding of where we go when we die, and what we ARE after we die. A man I know told me that he could understand talking to Mary in heaven if she had been assumed before death, but if she was dead, NO WAY… That doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me, since she would be in the same place, but that was his logic.

There is also little to no understanding of the difference between adoration and veneration by most protestants. Without that understanding it would be very easy to mistake MANY things we do as being wrong.

FSC

 

[Madaglan]

Well, let’s see.

First there’s the Rosary with ‘Holy Mother Mary, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death’.

There are the articles and calls for recognizing Mary as co-redemptrix, and how you could avoid praying to her at that point, I don’t know.

You have the Marian devotees, that the Catholic church has never renounced despite their extreme views.

There’s the statutes that you put up and then pray in front of or too. Catholics bury a St. Joseph statute upside down and say a prayer to him that their house will sell. I mean, are you seriously denying that Catholics teach and pray for intercession from the saints? I hear that all the time on EWTN!

I appreciate the saints of the past, read their writings and absorb the teachings that are good and Biblical, recognizing them as part of that ‘great cloud of witnesses’. But, I draw the line at praying to them.

Of course Catholics (and Orthodox) pray to the saints. Why should they not? Through God’s mercy, the saints are become gods by grace.

I think that some Catholics do not want to say that they pray to the saints, because they do not want Protestants to think that they pray to the saints as if they were Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Of course Catholics (and Orthodox) do not pray to the saints in the same manner, even as Protestants may imagine it so.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Where do they get the idea that Catholics: pray to and/or worship Mary and/or Saints and/or the Pope and/or statues? How long has this “theory” been around and who started it?

On a Sunday last October (the 4th to be exact) I was in a Catholic Church in Florida. Near the end of the procession the celebrant turned to the left and walked up to a statue of Mary that was in a niche in the wall. The Priest stood there in adoration and prayer for about a minute, then retraced his steps and entered the Sanctuary. I wondered what that was all about, as there was nothing said about it nor a call to communal prayer, and it was not a Feast day of Mary. But it seemed that he was worshipping a statue (“Mary is really not there”, I wanted to tell him) and it made me somewhat uncomfortable, reminding me of movies in which pagans bow and scrape before large statues and icons of their gods during their rituals.

That is just one incident on just one occasion, but it surely is not unique. Look around your churches, count the statues of Mary, as Mother of the Redeemer, as Our Lady of Perpetual Help, etc., and the pictures of Mary as Our Lady, or Queen of Heaven, or Blessed Virgin, and on and on.

There are 20 Marian feast days in the liturgical calendar, better than one and a half every month. Some go way back, some are relatively recent, added in the last 140 years or so. If we consider Catholic Dogma, I believe that the most recent doctrines added to that list have been about Mary: The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

Look also at Catholic publications and websites. Big emphasis on stories and images of Mary, including some sites specifically about her. There have been Catholics on this forum who have wondered why there is not more prayer to Mary in the Mass, or advocate making her co-redemptrix. Check out the religious images and statuary in your homes; my personal experience tells me that a great number of Catholic homes have more icons of Mary than anything else, and the more devoted the Catholic, the more there seem to be, inside and out.

The questions above can be answered very easily by looking around. The idea is not a “theory” but a result of observation. The emphasis on Mary has grown and grown, in some cases obscuring God and relegating Jesus to a supporting role in some peoples’ faith life. And to say that Catholics don’t pray to Mary but ask for her intercession and prayers on their behalf is just semantics; it is clearly prayer.

As I recall, way back when God commanded that there be “no other gods” before Him. To many non-Catholics, the Catholic Church’s devotion towared and idolizing of Mary (and to a lesser extent other saints) cannot be reconciled with that commandment.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

On a Sunday last October (the 4th to be exact) I was in a Catholic Church in Florida. Near the end of the procession the celebrant turned to the left and walked up to a statue of Mary that was in a niche in the wall. The Priest stood there in adoration and prayer for about a minute, then retraced his steps and entered the Sanctuary. I wondered what that was all about, as there was nothing said about it nor a call to communal prayer, and it was not a Feast day of Mary. But it seemed that he was worshipping a statue (“Mary is really not there”, I wanted to tell him) and it made me somewhat uncomfortable, reminding me of movies in which pagans bow and scrape before large statues and icons of their gods during their rituals.

That is just one incident on just one occasion, but it surely is not unique. Look around your churches, count the statues of Mary, as Mother of the Redeemer, as Our Lady of Perpetual Help, etc., and the pictures of Mary as Our Lady, or Queen of Heaven, or Blessed Virgin, and on and on.

There are 20 Marian feast days in the liturgical calendar, better than one and a half every month. Some go way back, some are relatively recent, added in the last 140 years or so. If we consider Catholic Dogma, I believe that the most recent doctrines added to that list have been about Mary: The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

Look also at Catholic publications and websites. Big emphasis on stories and images of Mary, including some sites specifically about her. There have been Catholics on this forum who have wondered why there is not more prayer to Mary in the Mass, or advocate making her co-redemptrix. Check out the religious images and statuary in your homes; my personal experience tells me that a great number of Catholic homes have more icons of Mary than anything else, and the more devoted the Catholic, the more there seem to be, inside and out.

The questions above can be answered very easily by looking around. The idea is not a “theory” but a result of observation. The emphasis on Mary has grown and grown, in some cases obscuring God and relegating Jesus to a supporting role in some peoples’ faith life. And to say that Catholics don’t pray to Mary but ask for her intercession and prayers on their behalf is just semantics; it is clearly prayer.

As I recall, way back when God commanded that there be “no other gods” before Him. To many non-Catholics, the Catholic Church’s devotion towared and idolizing of Mary (and to a lesser extent other saints) cannot be reconciled with that commandment.

You are absolutely correct. I was a practicing Catholic for 38 years and observed first hand the types of things you have described.

When Catholics pray, “Hail Mary, full of grace…” and “Hail, Holy Queen”, that is definitely praying TO Mary. I know, because I did it when I was a Catholic. My mother is still a Catholic and does it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

On a Sunday last October (the 4th to be exact) I was in a Catholic Church in Florida. Near the end of the procession the celebrant turned to the left and walked up to a statue of Mary that was in a niche in the wall. The Priest stood there in adoration and prayer for about a minute, then retraced his steps and entered the Sanctuary. I wondered what that was all about, as there was nothing said about it nor a call to communal prayer, and it was not a Feast day of Mary. But it seemed that he was worshipping a statue (“Mary is really not there”, I wanted to tell him) and it made me somewhat uncomfortable, reminding me of movies in which pagans bow and scrape before large statues and icons of their gods during their rituals.

That is just one incident on just one occasion, but it surely is not unique. Look around your churches, count the statues of Mary, as Mother of the Redeemer, as Our Lady of Perpetual Help, etc., and the pictures of Mary as Our Lady, or Queen of Heaven, or Blessed Virgin, and on and on.

There are 20 Marian feast days in the liturgical calendar, better than one and a half every month. Some go way back, some are relatively recent, added in the last 140 years or so. If we consider Catholic Dogma, I believe that the most recent doctrines added to that list have been about Mary: The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

Look also at Catholic publications and websites. Big emphasis on stories and images of Mary, including some sites specifically about her. There have been Catholics on this forum who have wondered why there is not more prayer to Mary in the Mass, or advocate making her co-redemptrix. Check out the religious images and statuary in your homes; my personal experience tells me that a great number of Catholic homes have more icons of Mary than anything else, and the more devoted the Catholic, the more there seem to be, inside and out.

The questions above can be answered very easily by looking around. The idea is not a “theory” but a result of observation. The emphasis on Mary has grown and grown, in some cases obscuring God and relegating Jesus to a supporting role in some peoples’ faith life. And to say that Catholics don’t pray to Mary but ask for her intercession and prayers on their behalf is just semantics; it is clearly prayer.

As I recall, way back when God commanded that there be “no other gods” before Him. To many non-Catholics, the Catholic Church’s devotion towared and idolizing of Mary (and to a lesser extent other saints) cannot be reconciled with that commandment.

Why thank you for clearing up what we believe, over what we tell you we believe.

There is no other God before Him, unless you count your ‘imagination’.

 

[CMatt25]

Lol, wow… I tend to troll a lot of threads you are on and all I can say is

:thankyou:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You are absolutely correct. I was a practicing Catholic for 38 years and observed first hand the types of things you have described.

When Catholics pray, “Hail Mary, full of grace…” and “Hail, Holy Queen”, that is definitely praying TO Mary. I know, because I did it when I was a Catholic. My mother is still a Catholic and does it.

Why is it, Mary is ‘attacked’ always by people who do not understand the Catholic faith? Have you read the explanations? Why do you continue to ‘judge’ us based on what you see with your eye?

 

[Bluegoat]

Well, I think there have been times and places where Catholics did pray to saints in an inappropriate way. Not because the CC officially taught that this was a good thing to do, but because there is a natural tendency among people to transfer the proper worship of God to other things. With regard to images this seems particularly common with poorly educated and peasant peoples, or ones who still hold to remnants of earlier polytheistic religions.

In the early Christian era up through the middle ages, there are attitudes to things like relics and so on that seem to stray rather outside of what would have been theologically acceptable, even among priests and monks. Respect and openness to miracles crosses the thin line into looking for magic.

As well, I think some of the Reformers were dealing with a Catholicism that had come to seem rather bloated, with a lot of emphasis on peripherals and much less on Christ. I think this is paralleled to the Reformers insistence on faith over works - it was largely a reaction to an undue emphasis on worldly action and worldly concerns.

Overall, I think this kind of mistake is against the spirit of the age we live in - we are more likely to err in the other direction. But we shouldn’t let that blind us to the fact that the mistake of beginning to put undue emphasis on saints and other such things is something that can really happen.

Even as a fairly catholic Anglican I occasionally find myself made quite uncomfortable when some Catholics tell me that if I say a certain prayer, or wear a certain item, I am guaranteed certain blessings such as not dying without the sacraments. And there are still Catholics who will bury a statue in the yard. Someone seeing this may well conclude that even if the CC doesn’t teach that this is ok, praying to saints is leading to bad things.

 

[JRKH]

Why thank you for clearing up what we believe, over what we tell you we believe.

There is no other God before Him, unless you count your ‘imagination’.

:clapping::clapping:

I do understand that people get confused on this, and our non-catholic bretheren are not acting out of malice toward us, but it does seem funny that they insist on telling us what we believe when our bliefs are spelled out for anyone to read in The bible, the Cathechism, canon law and other documents.

AHH well

Peace
James

 

[chaunceygardner]

Why is it, Mary is ‘attacked’ always by people who do not understand the Catholic faith? Have you read the explanations? Why do you continue to ‘judge’ us based on what you see with your eye?

I think the sayings are “seeing is believing” and “actions speak louder than words”.

Why thank you for clearing up what we believe, over what we tell you we believe.

I said nothing about what anyone believes but what I and others observe. You seem very defensive about this. I have no problem with anyone’s devotional practices; if it helps someone’s understanding of and strengthens their faith in God, well and good. I just think they should be honest about it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well, I think there have been times and places where Catholics did pray to saints in an inappropriate way. Not because the CC officially taught that this was a good thing to do, but because there is a natural tendency among people to transfer the proper worship of God to other things. With regard to images this seems particularly common with poorly educated and peasant peoples, or ones who still hold to remnants of earlier polytheistic religions.

In the early Christian era up through the middle ages, there are attitudes to things like relics and so on that seem to stray rather outside of what would have been theologically acceptable, even among priests and monks. Respect and openness to miracles crosses the thin line into looking for magic.

As well, I think some of the Reformers were dealing with a Catholicism that had come to seem rather bloated, with a lot of emphasis on peripherals and much less on Christ. I think this is paralleled to the Reformers insistence on faith over works - it was largely a reaction to an undue emphasis on worldly action and worldly concerns.

Overall, I think this kind of mistake is against the spirit of the age we live in - we are more likely to err in the other direction. But we shouldn’t let that blind us to the fact that the mistake of beginning to put undue emphasis on saints and other such things is something that can really happen.

Even as a fairly catholic Anglican I occasionally find myself made quite uncomfortable when some Catholics tell me that if I say a certain prayer, or wear a certain item, I am guaranteed certain blessings such as not dying without the sacraments. And there are still Catholics who will bury a statue in the yard. Someone seeing this may well conclude that even if the CC doesn’t teach that this is ok, praying to saints is leading to bad things.

While you may view God’s power as ‘magic’, I do not.

Relics are Biblical.

2Ki 13:20 And Eliseus died, and they buried him. And the rovers from Moab came into the land the same year.
2Ki 13:21 And some that were burying a man, saw the rovers, and cast the body into the sepulchre of Eliseus. And when it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life and stood upon his feet.

Act 19:11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles.
Act 19:12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons: and the diseases departed from them: and the wicked spirits went out of them.

Some may cross lines in their worship practices, I cannot say because I cannot see in each and every individual’s heart.

The Bible does not teach for everyone to interpret scriptures for themselves. It teaches us to hold to the traditions we’ve been taught ‘whether by word or epistle’. Therefore, I accept the Church, the scriptures and the traditions, taught by her.

It really surprises me to see so many step forward and judge a whole Church, by what they view with their eye.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think the sayings are “seeing is believing” and “actions speak louder than words”.

So seeing with your eye is your justification for ‘judging’ people? Where in scriptures does it teach that YOU are a ‘judge’?

I said nothing about what anyone believes but what I and others observe. You seem very defensive about this. I have no problem with anyone’s devotional practices; if it helps someone’s understanding of and strengthens their faith in God, well and good. I just think they should be honest about it.

I am defensive because of the logic of people who speak against Catholicism in such a manner. Are you now calling me a liar when I say I don’t worship Mary or statues? Speaking of honesty, what are your goals coming to a Catholic forum? You don’t believe us to be honest and you don’t believe in our practices.