Non-Catholic Exclusion of the Eucharist

[TC3033]

Well this definitely doesn’t help that’s for sure. And it gets more confusing when you had many churches, particularly in the US, that were for a long time inviting non-Catholics to come up for a blessing in lieu of receiving communion (so it was being explicitly said “don’t come up for communion if you’re not Catholic, but do come up for a blessing” in many cases during the announcements). My childhood parish was one of these churches that did this in the '80’s and '90’s.

But in recent years, particularly since the modification of the mass, I’ve noticed fewer and fewer Catholic Churches in the US that invite non-Catholics to come up for a blessing (since as I understand it they weren’t supposed to be doing that in the first place). Which if you were used to being offered that blessing adds yet another confusing dimension to this situation. If you’re no longer able to come up for a blessing, and you’re used to being involved in that way, it gets even more difficult I’d think to be left behind during communion. And/or for poorly catechized Catholics, or Catholics who simply ignore Catholic teaching on the matter, to leave their non-Catholic fellows behind.

That’s true too. One Church we go to once in a while the father invites non-Catholics up all the time, at our “home” Church the Father believes in the practice of blessings but only invites non-communals up at weddings and funerals.

 

[JonNC]

Sometimes Catholics in the pews aren’t terribly well catechized and act slighted if I don’t receive, even after I have gently explained that I am Lutheran. Unfortunately this occurred a few times when I have gone to Mass (Feast days/Ash Wednesday) with Catholic co-workers .

I think they didn’t want me to feel left out and I appreciate their tact, but it’s hard for non-Catholics to abide by closed communion when some are assured that “It’s OK, things are different now” in one instance and then forbidden in another.

I don’t know what the solution is because we face the same issues in the LCMS. Since I approach with a repentant and contrite heart and surely discern the Real Body and Blood of our Lord I don’t think I am receiving to my judgement; but I would be breaking the house rules of the Catholic Church and it could, indeed, be very bad for a person that believes the Supper is only a symbol.

Jon

 

[GKC]

Jon

Put up one of those for me.

 

[MT1926]

If one has not been “well catechized” as a youth, we still have the obligation to learn about our Catholic Faith as an adult. Catholic Answers and EWTN are great places to learn. God Bless, Memaw

I love coming here.

The podcasts are excellent.

I totally agree, however if one was not catechized well as a youth, how would one know they had an obligation is the big question? That is why the only thing negative I can say is, I had to find this site on my own. Kind of disappointing that this website isn’t readily known in all Parishes. The local Churches should embrace this resource and direct all parishioners here. Now that I know how much information there is here, I direct everyone to this sight.

God Bless

 

[TC3033]

I hate to nitpick …but I just can’t resist.
First let me say I do understand the other side of it, and I am sorry that there is hurt feelings over differences. However, there are some major differences and I am Catholic, therefore bound by the beliefs and the “rules” of the Catholic Church. Every Catholic must ask before receiving Communion: Am I in a state where I can receive worthily? As an earlier poster stated. Every Catholic must explicitly affirm that he believes that this is truly the Body of Christ when he receives the Eucharist.

As I stated in another post I was not Catechized well as a youth, however when I went to a cousins church I was well aware of the fact that I was a guest in their house. I was willing to sit their and recite the same prayers that I was familiar with but I knew fair well to participate further meant that I was actually stating that I believe everything that church teaches. Which I didn’t, even though I wasn’t catechized well. It was common sense to me. I think this is what the whole issue comes down to. We live in a world where we want what we want, and common sense has now become uncommon sense.

Let’s use this uncommon sense and go a little further. We both know that you could come to my Church right now sit down on my left and go to communion. No one would have a clue that you weren’t Catholic. Now on the right of me is a guy that committed adultery last night and he goes to communion also, no one would no this but him. I think the point I am trying to make is the Church can’t deny communion to Baptized Christians or to Catholics. Either you can understand the difference and respect that difference or a loved one can explain that difference to you. I don’t see how there is any other way someone would not you weren’t Catholic. In both of these cases the ball is in your court. Even if you choose not to respect the difference, Jesus told us to love and respect each other. So if you were asked by a loved one not go to communion because you were not Catholic would you really need a reason other than that? I wouldn’t. I might ask them later to explain further, but just can’t wrap my mind around disagreeing with a loved one. Saying that it doesn’t matter whether I believe it is or isn’t the true Body of Christ, your opinions are of no value to me and I should be allowed to participate. Love needs to be a 2 way street and sometimes we need to lovingly accept the differences and not hold onto our grudges.
God Bless

It’s a lot easier to say you need to understand the differences and actually understand them. I’ve read a handful of times on here where Catholics are fully understanding the Evangelical side. That’s not bad, for some it’s a totally foreign concept and might be tough to grasp. That’s one thing we’re talking about here. It took me years to really grasp the concept of the closed communion. I’m still not a fan, but I get it.

I’ve read on here that it needs to be a two way street a couple of times…but it’s always the Evangelical that “needs to understand”. If it’s supposed to be a two way street, I would expect to have seen a few more replies of “I see now, and understand where you are coming from. That doesn’t change how the Eucharist is viewed in the Catholic Church, but now understand a little be more about where my friends, co-workers, etc… are coming from and can possibly better explain or help them at communion time” rather than replies justifying the closed communion I’ve said I get probably half a dozen times.

Would I need more of a reason? No, but an explanation would be nice and even then I wouldn’t be able to say I understand…

When I’m told not to go “just because I’m not Catholic”. That’s exactly where the confusion comes from. To Evangelicals when it comes to communion there is no Catholic, Lutheran, Non-Denom, Evangelical, etc… so it’s strange. Like I’ve said in the thread, I get it and I’m getting over it, but to someone new can still be construed as an insult no matter who told them. And it’s not an insult from that person, but rather from the Church. It basically tells Evangelicals that according to the Catholic Church, you’re not really Christians. Especially if that person isn’t at lest a little prepared before hand.

You’re right, the ball would be in my court but I guarantee that once I got up to the front of the line I’d be pegged as a non-Catholic pretty easily since I wouldn’t have any of the nuances of receiving down.

 

[Thorolfr]

It basically tells Evangelicals that according to the Catholic Church, you’re not really Christians.

That’s what closed communion tells me and it doesn’t just have to come from the Catholic Church. As an ELCA Lutheran, I would also not be welcome to receive communion in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church.

 

[Padres1969]

That’s what closed communion tells me and it doesn’t just have to come from the Catholic Church. As an ELCA Lutheran, I would also not be welcome to receive communion in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church.

You know what though, I won’t presume to know what you believe in your heart about your faith, but if you truly believe you’re a Christian and that your denomination is part of Christ’s Church… why should it matter what another church thinks about you?

I mean most cases where this would happen would be on special occasions, and in which case you know that the closed communion church is wrong about you. So accept their judgement of you and take it for what it’s worth based on your faith’s belief. The only place I can see that really being grating on a person is when visiting a Catholic or other closed communion church isn’t a special occasion (ie: something like mixed marriages where both attend the closed church or something like there’s no church in your denomination nearby). And even then my message would be the same, stand strong in your faith that the church that is closed and implicitly judging you for your faith is wrong.

I mean when it gets down to it, this closed Eucharist issue is simply a tangible manifestation of the underlying reality of the relations between some Christian Churches. Most Christian Churches including the RCC often like to downplay differences between themselves in the name of Ecumenism. But for some, particularly Churches like the RCC and others with closed communion, even in the post Vatican II world, there is still an underlying reality that they see other branches of the Christian family tree as distinctly lacking in some aspect of the true Christian faith.

 

[benjohnson]

That’s what closed communion tells me and it doesn’t just have to come from the Catholic Church. As an ELCA Lutheran, I would also not be welcome to receive communion in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church.

You’re certainly very much welcome and encouraged to receive communion from a LCMS church - just go through an adult faith formation class and be received as members of the church and profess what the church does and you’re set.

 

[TC3033]

You know what though, I won’t presume to know what you believe in your heart about your faith, but if you truly believe you’re a Christian and that your denomination is part of Christ’s Church… why should it matter what another church thinks about you?

I mean most cases where this would happen would be on special occasions, and in which case you know that the closed communion church is wrong about you. So accept their judgement of you and take it for what it’s worth based on your faith’s belief. The only place I can see that really being grating on a person is when visiting a Catholic or other closed communion church isn’t a special occasion (ie: something like mixed marriages where both attend the closed church or something like there’s no church in your denomination nearby). And even then my message would be the same, stand strong in your faith that the church that is closed and implicitly judging you for your faith is wrong.

I mean when it gets down to it, this closed Eucharist issue is simply a tangible manifestation of the underlying reality of the relations between some Christian Churches. Most Christian Churches including the RCC often like to downplay differences between themselves in the name of Ecumenism. But for some, particularly Churches like the RCC and others with closed communion, even in the post Vatican II world, there is still an underlying reality that they see other branches of the Christian family tree as distinctly lacking in some aspect of the true Christian faith.

That’s basically making their point. The RCC, in the eye’s of the non-Catholic, unfailrly judges them as a 2nd rate Christian and their faith really doesn’t count. So basically, back to your first point, those of us who aren’t Catholic (including in mixed marriages) shouldn’t be attending Mass in the first place because we’re incomplete Christians and always will be?

Again, I’ve never argued for or against, but more am bringing to light the thought process from the Evangelical side when so many say, in so few words “why don’t they get it”?

 

[TC3033]

You’re certainly very much welcome and encouraged to receive communion from a LCMS church - just go through an adult faith formation class and be received as members of the church and profess what the church does and you’re set.

So then no, they’re not really welcome.

 

[benjohnson]

So then no, they’re not really welcome.

In the same vein, you’re welcome to come eat with my family tonight - I ask you to come fully clothed,not cuss too much, and you don’t get to tell my children that pornography is ok.

 

[TC3033]

In the same vein, you’re welcome to come eat with my family tonight - I ask you to come fully clothed,not cuss too much, and you don’t get to tell my children that pornography is ok.

So basically be my same non-denominational self

 

[Memaw]

Of course they do. Why, because they don’t know that Catholics aren’t supposed to. I didn’t know that until I started posting here.
Gorgias;13754406:

Right – so, the real problem isn’t what Catholics believe… the problem is that some Protestants project their belief system on the Catholic Church. Is that really fair?

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree here. I don’t think that it’s projecting one on the other, it’s a massive difference in teaching and understanding. An Evangelical my not “think” they’re projecting a belief system on the Catholic church. They may think that all Christians believe that everyone is welcome to the table, and when they’re denied it’s hurtful.

As far as Love, friendship, respect etc, I would agree we all need that BUT when it comes to receiving Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, that is a very different matter. The Catholic Church knows and teaches exactly what Jesus Christ said our Holy Communion would be. This IS MY Body, This IS MY Blood. Others do NOT believe that. Our Mass is not just a supper table, come and eat. It is for our spiritual health that the Church has her rules about receiving Holy Communion. If we receive unworthily, we would be guilty of HIS Body and Blood. (1 Cor 11:23-29). The Church doesn’t want that burden for anyone. Even Catholics HAVE to be in the state of Grace to receive worthily. If they receive anyway, the burden is on them. Also and most important out of LOVE and respect for Our Lord we MUST be in the state of Grace to receive Him in Holy Communion. That is the highest obligation a Catholic has. Other denominations do not believe this and do not even respect the Catholic Church’s belief in the TRUE presence of Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist. If they did, they wouldn’t be almost demanding we allow open communion. That will never happen in the Catholic Church for reasons above. If one wants to participate fully in the Catholic Mass, they should consider studying the Catholic Faith so they could become a Catholic to do so. As for Catholics that receive communion in other denominations, that is NOT allowed by the Catholic Church either and they need to talk to a priest about it. Catholics that encourage others to receive Holy Communion no matter what, are in grave error also, and they need to talk to a priest also. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Padres1969]

That’s basically making their point. The RCC, in the eye’s of the non-Catholic, unfailrly judges them as a 2nd rate Christian and their faith really doesn’t count. So basically, back to your first point, those of us who aren’t Catholic (including in mixed marriages) shouldn’t be attending Mass in the first place because we’re incomplete Christians and always will be?

Again, I’ve never argued for or against, but more am bringing to light the thought process from the Evangelical side when so many say, in so few words “why don’t they get it”?

It’s a harsh way to put it, but essentially what you say about the RCC seeing other Christians as “second rate” is fair because it’s at the core what they believe. Nicer words are used like “lacking the fullness of truth” and other euphemisms of the sort, but the underlying messages is, yes Protestants and other non-Catholic Christians are second rate Christians in the RCC’s view. Most don’t have all the sacraments, we’re not subject to the pope, etc… and by extension our version of Christianity is Christian, but not all it could be.

But my message wasn’t to avoid Catholic mass because you’re a “second rate” Christian per se. It’s to avoid Catholic mass if the RCC telling you that you’re second rate causes you pain or consternation. Why subject yourself to that unless you absolutely have to (for example as an agreed part of a mixed marriage that you worship together). And even in that example if it causes that much consternation and pain it might even be worth revisiting the issue with the Catholic spouse. And if you truly believe what the RCC is saying about you, that your church is second rate, then maybe you should look into converting to Catholicism (or whomever it is who is saying you’re second rate) because it sounds like you may not believe your church to really be fully Christian?

I mean for myself personally I go to Catholic masses (Eastern, Roman Rite (OF and EF), Anglican Use) from time to time, usually out of intellectual or liturgical curiosity, and indirectly receive that message that I’m not fully Christian (I get that indirect message more so in some ways since I was a Catholic for over 20 years). But at the same time I’m almost never more cognizant of my Christianity than when I’m in a situation like that, where someone is telling me I’m less Christian than them even if indirectly. So in many ways for me it becomes a faith affirming experience and I thank our Catholic brothers and sisters for that. But I understand that not everyone feels that when they visit a closed communion service.

 

[Thorolfr]

The Catholic Church knows and teaches exactly what Jesus Christ said our Holy Communion would be. This IS MY Body, This IS MY Blood. Others do NOT believe that.

This, of course, is not true. Certainly for some Christian denominations, the bread and the wine are symbolic and memorial. But there are non-Catholic Christians who also believe in the Real Presence, including Orthodox Christians, many Lutherans, many Anglicans, etc.

 

[TC3033]

TC3033;13754875:

Of course they do. Why, because they don’t know that Catholics aren’t supposed to. I didn’t know that until I started posting here.
Gorgias;13754406:

Right – so, the real problem isn’t what Catholics believe… the problem is that some Protestants project their belief system on the Catholic Church. Is that really fair?

As far as Love, friendship, respect etc, I would agree we all need that BUT when it comes to receiving Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, that is a very different matter. The Catholic Church knows and teaches exactly what Jesus Christ said our Holy Communion would be. This IS MY Body, This IS MY Blood. Others do NOT believe that. Our Mass is not just a supper table, come and eat. It is for our spiritual health that the Church has her rules about receiving Holy Communion. If we receive unworthily, we would be guilty of HIS Body and Blood. (1 Cor 11:23-29). The Church doesn’t want that burden for anyone. Even Catholics HAVE to be in the state of Grace to receive worthily. If they receive anyway, the burden is on them. Also and most important out of LOVE and respect for Our Lord we MUST be in the state of Grace to receive Him in Holy Communion. That is the highest obligation a Catholic has. Other denominations do not believe this and do not even respect the Catholic Church’s belief in the TRUE presence of Our Lord in the Holy Eucharist. If they did, they wouldn’t be almost demanding we allow open communion. That will never happen in the Catholic Church for reasons above. If one wants to participate fully in the Catholic Mass, they should consider studying the Catholic Faith so they could become a Catholic to do so. As for Catholics that receive communion in other denominations, that is NOT allowed by the Catholic Church either and they need to talk to a priest about it. Catholics that encourage others to receive Holy Communion no matter what, are in grave error also, and they need to talk to a priest also. God Bless, Memaw

We’ll have to agree to disagree. But…you’ve replied to me a couple times in this thread alone telling me about the Eucharest and what I already know. And no, it isn’t an issue of respect, it’s really an issue of upbringing, and not understanding.

Honestly, the way you have replied to me in this thread alone shows me that you don’t understand, or respect my faith much at all. That’s fine, it’s quite possible that you haven’t taken the time to understand it.

In the same vein that you’re expecting (blatantly saying) that non-Catholics need to understand and respect, really it would be nice if you showed the same. Like I said in this thread a dozen times now, Evangelicals see communion as all Christians in unity sitting at the Lord’s table. When that’s denied to them, especially the first handful of times, it’s a real culture shock. Especially if they’re only told, “well, it’s because you’re not Catholic” or “it’s for your own good”…kind of like that breakup where they say “it’s not you, it’s me” I keep hearing two way street, but it seems like only one side is supposed to come back on using the other lane, if I may.

 

[Memaw]

This, of course, is not true. Certainly for some Christian denominations, the bread and the wine are symbolic and memorial. But there are non-Catholic Christians who also believe in the Real Presence, including Orthodox Christians, many Lutherans, many Anglicans, etc.

Not all have Apostolic Succession and Valid Holy Orders in order to have the TRUE Presence, even if they want to believe so. Don’t you ever wonder why there haven’t ever been any Eucharistic Miracles in other denominations?? God Bless, Memaw

 

[JonNC]

You’re certainly very much welcome and encouraged to receive communion from a LCMS church - just go through an adult faith formation class and be received as members of the church and profess what the church does and you’re set.

Gosh, all Thorolfr would have to do is return to a confessional, orthodox Lutheran subscription to scripture and the Confessions.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

So then no, they’re not really welcome.

I think I already answered this: if Thorolfr came to our LCMS parish, met with the pastor, expressed a desire to receive, states a unity to the Lutheran confessions, and that no ELCA parish was nearby where he/she could receive, I have no doubt about the welcome. That’s what happened to me.

OTOH, if a Baptist or an evangelical came in, stating he/she believed in a symbolic presence, then no, probably not. Why? Mainly to protect him from the consequences of not discerning the real and substantial body and blood of Christ on the altar.

Jon

 

[Memaw]

Memaw;13756037:

TC3033;13754875:

Of course they do. Why, because they don’t know that Catholics aren’t supposed to. I didn’t know that until I started posting here.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. But…you’ve replied to me a couple times in this thread alone telling me about the Eucharest and what I already know. And no, it isn’t an issue of respect, it’s really an issue of upbringing, and not understanding.

Honestly, the way you have replied to me in this thread alone shows me that you don’t understand, or respect my faith much at all. That’s fine, it’s quite possible that you haven’t taken the time to understand it.

In the same vein that you’re expecting (blatantly saying) that non-Catholics need to understand and respect, really it would be nice if you showed the same. Like I said in this thread a dozen times now, Evangelicals see communion as all Christians in unity sitting at the Lord’s table. When that’s denied to them, especially the first handful of times, it’s a real culture shock. Especially if they’re only told, “well, it’s because you’re not Catholic” or “it’s for your own good”…kind of like that breakup where they say “it’s not you, it’s me” I keep hearing two way street, but it seems like only one side is supposed to come back on using the other lane, if I may.

It wasn’t to long ago that most non-Catholics wouldn’t come near a Catholic Church, let alone a Mass because of all the false things they believed about the Catholic Church. . I don’t believe I said one thing disrespectful of your faith. I only tried to explain the Catholic Church’s position. I have many non-Catholic friends and we have had many discussions on this matter. I have a friend that went (in a group), on a trip to Rome with his wife, also non-catholic but not so anti, and he absolutely refused to go near St. Peter’s Basilica even tho his wife did. He was raised very anti-catholic. It may have very well been an issue of upbringing. That same man years later asked for a priest before he died, his wife told me at his funeral.
Catholics follow what the Catholic Church teaches and She expect others to respect that. as we respect your beliefs. You don’t have to believe as we do but please do not try to tell us how to believe. Isn’t that respect!? God Bless, Memaw