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elvisman
Guest
That’s because you don’t read with the understanding that you should.
Prov. 3:5 speaks well of you when it says:
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding."
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Prov. 3:5 speaks well of you when it says:
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding."
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1beleevr
Guest
All have sinned, and fallen short…Yes, it is true, some of the worst sinners, are ChristiansOh, yes, some Catholics are the worst sinners!
I wonder if anyone has done any research about how many professed hard-core, God-loving Christians are in prison for drinking and carousing and generalized sinful living?
I’m pretty sure Catholics do not have the market on cursing and sinful behavior. In fact, I think there’s fewer Catholics in prison than other Christians!
In our prison, ther is a large contingent of catholic inmates, who are also gang members! But being a Christian does not preclude you from going to prison
Last time I checked, people do not go to the "big house’, for drinking and carousing; perhaps activities related to or caused by the drinking and carousing! I was just making an observation that those catholics I have personally come in contact with profess to be big drinkers, and cursers. One guy told me that they have a big beer party on Easter, to mark the end of Lent. And non catholic Christians are as guilty of sinful behavior as any one else! It’s just that we are not quite so high profile as catholics!
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1beleevr
Guest
Ah yes, Proverbs 3:5, a verse that I live by! God directs my steps for sure. But when you claim that 1Timothy speaks of the catholic church, you should be prepared to defend and explain your position, rather than say,“It’s what the apostles taught!”
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elvisman
Guest
You don’t know HOW God will complete your righteousness yet you reject the state of purgation that Christ’s Church has taught from the very beginning?
**Christ himself said that you would not get out "until you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:26, Luke 12:59).
Tell me - when he mentioned not getting out until you have paid the "last penny" - what was he talking about?
He also said “But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next” (Matt. 12:32).
Tell me - when he mentioned being forgiven in the "next world" - what was he talking about?**
I’d like an explanation of BOTH scenarios please. This is open to ALL Protestants who reject a final purgation.
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1beleevr
Guest
I’m sure that you have had discussions with people, and gotten frustrated because they don’t see things your way! In this situation, one can either call that person an idiot, or ignorant! To me ignorance is knowing the rules or procedures, but not applying them. You know, when a judge tells you, “Ignorance of the law, is no excuse?” And please don’t say," so what’s your excuse for ignoring the truth! You see, I have a personal relationship with the Truth!
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elvisman
Guest
So, you’re saying that it all boils down to Sola Scriptura for you? If it DOES - and I don’t want to derail this thread - but explain where THAT is taught in the Bible.
While you’re at it, tell me WHY you believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God.
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Nicea325
Guest
Amazing! This your concrete evidence for rebuking Purgatory:Well, of course I can’t show historical records of protests against purgatory
Well, of course I can’t show historical records of protests against purgatory
catholics took a Jewish idea,and called it purgatory.Not uncommon of most non-Catholics,cannot provide any historical evidence,but their personal opinions is sufficient proof.
U-huh and the Jehovah Witnesses deny the existence of Hell as a place or state of being…does that mean it does not exist?
Your lack of belief does not negate Purgatory.
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Dokimas
Guest
I’m glad you brought up context.
Matthew 18:
15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
21 ¶ Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Where does it say that a sinner should go to a priest to confess a sin?
2Corinthians 5:
16 ¶ Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Again, where does it say that a sinner should go to a priest to confess a sin?
2Corinthians 2:
5 ¶ But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
I may be mistaken but the context of this goes back to 1 Corinthians about a man having sex with his fathers wife. In context, no priests.
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elvisman
Guest
ALL have sinned? Even Jesus?
Even infants?
Even severly retarded children?
Be careful about making sweeping generalizations my angry friend . . .
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Nicea325
Guest
Well if you are claiming it is not the Catholic Church and I know for a fact it is not the man-made church you attend or any man-made church,then what church is Jesus referring to? Jesus founded THE church,but left it divided and splintered into thousands of conflicting sects? How interesting.
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1beleevr
Guest
Do you really believe that any mortal man knows for sure HOW(oops, no color!), God will complete our righteousness? In 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, Paul speaks of man’s “works” being tested by fire. What exactly are these “works?” Are they what you have or haven’t done for Christ? Are they your sins? Isn’t the other world Heaven? And it is unclear exactly what Matthew 5:26 really means, but you have stated the catholic position, which may or may not be correct! You see,you berate those who you claim interpret scripture for their own understanding, and then you do the same thing!
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elvisman
Guest
Matt. 8:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
The CHURCH has the authority to decide the rightness or wrongness of a matter.
Tell me - what church do you take your sins and disputes to?
2 Cor. 5:21
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
This speaks CLEARLY of the Ministry of Reconciliation.
2 Cor. 2:10
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
Paul forgives the sins of others in the PERSON of Christ (In persona Christi).
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1beleevr
Guest
When you get a free moment, perhaps you should read(or have your priest read it to you) Romans 3:23, and Romans 5:12
Unless I miss my guess, my post came from the writings of Paul! You tell me, who was he speaking of?
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elvisman
Guest
I’m not interpreting ANYTHING - I’m simply parroting the teachings of Christ’s Church as they have been taught for 2000 years.**
You still have yet to answer my 2 questions . . .
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1beleevr
Guest
Well, Christ did establish His church in Matthew 16, but the debate is whether or not it is the catholic church or not!
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elvisman
Guest
Romans 3:10, 23** explicitly states: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? St. Paul is speaking about those who trust in the Mosaic Law for their salvation.When you get a free moment, perhaps you should read(or have your priest read it to you) Romans 3:23, and Romans 5:12
In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”
St. Paul was using inclusive language. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the carnival last year. He is referring to the mass of mankind but God can and does make exceptions for anybody he wishes (like those I mentioned) . . .
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1beleevr
Guest
Read it again, you are giving the catholic church’s position on these scriptures! It is unclear if Matthew 5:26 speaks of purgatory, nd the other world is Heaven; pay attention!
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_L
Guest
John 20:21-22
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
I have yet to hear a comprehensive answer by protestants to explain this event.
Confession was historically practiced since the time of Christ’s ministry. sinners came to Christ in person in order to confess their sinfulness to Him where he would forgive them of their sins. The pharisees were livid over this. And when Christ had ascended into Heaven, His followers would act in his stead or in persona Christi, in the person of Christ; a representative on His behalf acting with His power not any power of their own.
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).
“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light” (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
Confession was the way this was done from the time of the apostles up to the present day. Whether you agree with this theologically speaking is your own choice, but historically speaking this is a fact.
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1beleevr
Guest
It’s too bad that Paul isn’t alive so we could ask him ourselves
From reading the epistle, it would seem that he is speaking about ALL who are born of the seed of a man(Jesus was born of the seed of a woman). When Adam and Eve sinned(not named Eve until after the fall), sinn was introduced to the worl, as well as death(physical). So, you cannot separate who sinned and who didn’t, or Paul would have clarified that!
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Nicea325
Guest
And let us say for the sake argument, it is not the CC, then which church was he referring to? The Baptist? Methodist? New Song Church? Hope Fellowship church,etc,etc,etc?
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