Non Catholic Interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19

[Cinette]

I will give you the Mormon answer to this question. We don’t follow the “Petros” vs. “Petra” argument. We believe that the “keys” were indeed given to the Peter. But there are certain additional factors that need to be taken into account with regards to the Christian Church of today. Firstly, the keys were not given to Peter alone, but to all of the Apostles (see Matthew 18:18). Peter was the chief of the Apostles, therefore he held the keys of the presidency over the Twelve; but the “keys of the kingdom,” which consisted of the “binding” and “loosing” power, was given to all of the Twelve, not just to Peter. Secondly, Peter held the keys over the kingdom of God on earth while he was alive. When he died he obviously could no longer exercise those keys here on earth. The keys had to be transferred to his successor. So the question is, who is his successor today? The Catholics obviously believe it is the Pope. We disagree. We believe it is the Mormon Prophet. We believe that the early Christian Church lost the keys when it went into Apostasy before the end of the first century, and the keys were restored to the LDS Church by the ministration of angels shortly after the Church was organized in 1830. That is the Mormon view of things with regard to the origin and transfer of the “keys”.

What you are saying is that Jesus did not keep his promise to be with His Church always…and that the Holy Spirit did not do his job to guide the Church into all truth because he was busy looking the other way! AND…for centuries the Church was in suspended animation until the LDS came along!!!

Can’t you see how absurd this notion is?

 

[Cinette]

In the argument given by some Non Catholic Christians, they state that Peter was called Petros by Jesus and his church was built on Petra (not Peter).

Please see the link for more on this argument.

My question is this: For you Non Catholic Christians that hold this interpretation, who holds the Keys of Heaven if not Peter?

*Peter means rock. Take a look at the name in Portuguese and French:

Portuguese:

• Rock = uma pedra (feminine gender) : Peter = Pedro

French:

• Rock = une pierre (f. gender) : Peter = Pierre

In regard to the keys of the Kingdom, why Jesus gave these to Peter. Why, is there some doubt about this?

Cinette*

ierre

 

[zdon011]

First, “tract” is an English word. I don’t think it has any religious affiliation. Second, You give all these supposedly impressive credentials in order to refute the IDEA of “tract” the idea of which zdon011 states “supports the Catholic interpretation, because it destroys the Protestant argument that Christ used separate words to refer to ‘Petros’ and the ‘petra’.” So, your intent appears to be the claim of more credability of your impressive credentials over the IDEA of “tract” even though your impressive credentials basicly agree with what zdon011’s “tract” is saying. This to me appears arrogant and rather supurfluous.

Dear Richard,
Thanks for trying to give me a fair hearing on this. I’ve emphasised again and again that EVERYTHING I’ve said on this topic has been TO SUPPORT THE CATHOLIC INTERPRETATION. It seems as if just because I give my religion as ‘Anglican’, some posters here automatically assume that I’m out to give a Protestant interpretation (which is the EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT I’M TRYING TO DO). Then without even reading my posts to see that I’M SUPPORTING THE CATHOLIC INTERPRETATION (I.E. THAT ST. PETER IS THE ROCK, PERIOD) these guys accuse me of using ‘Protestant methods’, and pretend to use CCC and Dogma to sledgehammer my supposed ‘errors’.

Honestly, it’s attitudes like that which keep me from approaching the Tiber.

Yours in frustration,
zdon

 

[Cinette]

Dear Richard,
Thanks for trying to give me a fair hearing on this. I’ve emphasised again and again that EVERYTHING I’ve said on this topic has been TO SUPPORT THE CATHOLIC INTERPRETATION. It seems as if just because I give my religion as ‘Anglican’, some posters here automatically assume that I’m out to give a Protestant interpretation (which is the EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT I’M TRYING TO DO). Then without even reading my posts to see that I’M SUPPORTING THE CATHOLIC INTERPRETATION (I.E. THAT ST. PETER IS THE ROCK, PERIOD) these guys accuse me of using ‘Protestant methods’, and pretend to use CCC and Dogma to sledgehammer my supposed ‘errors’.

Honestly, it’s attitudes like that which keep me from approaching the Tiber.

Yours in frustration,
zdon

Some of us Catholics are just (&^%$#@ people. I apologise on their behalf. Didn’t Jesus say he came to save sinners? Well, you will find a lot of them in the CC. As for the approaching the Tiber I would not let them stop me. If that is what you want of course.

Cinette*

 

[zdon011]

Are you assuming that every statement in every “tract” left in a Catholic Church is the authentic teaching of the Church? Look to authentic sources to find the authentic teachings.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Documents of Vatican II, the Decrees of the Council of Trent – and others – there you will find the authentic teaching of the Church. Unless the “Tract” quotes a source of authentic Catholic teaching, it’s questionable.

Bear in mind always when reading the New Testament that the Catholic Church wrote it.
Any interpretation that is not in agreement with what the Church teaches is in error.

Peace, Jim Dandy

Dear Jim Dandy,
You imply said ‘tract’ was something which might have been dropped in the church by some Protestant. It was not. I got it from a neat display in the narthex, right next to the parish newsletters and pamphlets for RCIA. It was designed as a simple introduction to the Catholic Faith for ‘doubters’. Appropriately, the last page included a recommendation of CAF as ‘an excellent apologetics site’

 

[zdon011]

Some of us Catholics are just (&^%$#@ people. I apologise on their behalf. Didn’t Jesus say he came to save sinners? Well, you will find a lot of them in the CC.*

Dear Cinette,

Thank you for your thoughtful words It’s wonderful when someone is kind enough to recognize another’s frustration. Although I guess it’s my fault that I thought my small contribution in support of the Catholic interpretation might be appreciated by… some Catholics:shrug:

As for the approaching the Tiber I would not let them stop me. If that is what you want of course.

Yes, that IS what I want. I know I can’t stay where I am: something’s got to give

God bless you,
zdon

 

[PRmerger]

When you believe in Christ you become perfect.

Perfect? None of us here can even type an answer without a typo, yet you’re claiming that we’re perfect?

(Let’s not go into whether Catholics here are even Christian and that’s why we’re making typos–'cause we’re not saved. )

How strange to think that you would deny Mary’s sinlessness–she who carried the Divine Word made Flesh in her very womb–yet claim it for everyone else. Curious indeed!

 

[elvisman]

Eph.2
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Eph.3
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

13Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Eph.4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

That doesn’t answer my question. This says nothing about ALL believers being part of the Church.

Let me ask it again:
*Can you show me where it says that all believers are part of Christ’s ONE Church? *

 

[elvisman]

When you believe in Christ you become perfect.

Eph.4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

**WHHHHHAT?? **
When we believe in Christ we become PERFECT??
**You’re have GOT to be kidding. **She me WHERE it says THAT in the Bible.

Do you realize what you’re saying? You’re saying that ALL of us who merel;y believe in Christ are perfect. You are as perfect as you will ever be - even in heaven?? NOTHING on earth is perfect.

That is the mose preposterous thing you have said on this thread so far . . .

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Perfect? None of us here can even type an answer without a typo, yet you’re claiming that we’re perfect?

(Let’s not go into whether Catholics here are even Christian and that’s why we’re making typos–'cause we’re not saved. )

How strange to think that you would deny Mary’s sinlessness–she who carried the Divine Word made Flesh in her very womb–yet claim it for everyone else. Curious indeed!

So, PR do you think that Jesus was making an unreasonable demand in

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
or in Luke when He asks us to be like Him?
Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Do you think His beautiful prayer in Jn.17 was useless
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Was Paul wrong
1 Corinthians 2:6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Philippians3
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

There are many more PR but you get the idea. Being perfect has nothing to do with how well you can type. Being perfect has to do with FATH in the only human to walk the face of the earth that was perfect and that is Jesus. We become acceptable to God through nothing that we did. But PERFECT in the eyes of God, through FAITH in what He did.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

WHHHHHAT??
When we believe in Christ we become PERFECT??
You’re have GOT to be kidding. She me WHERE it says THAT in the Bible.

Do you realize what you’re saying? You’re saying that ALL of us who merel;y believe in Christ are perfect. You are as perfect as you will ever be - even in heaven?? NOTHING on earth is perfect.

That is the mose preposterous thing you have said on this thread so far . . .

The bible tells us not that we should become perfect, but that we MUST become perfect and not just any kind of perfect. Jesus COMMANDS us to be as perfect as the Father in
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
That happens through the study of Jesus in scripture and FAITH in Him.
1Tim.3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Cinette]

So, PR do you think that Jesus was making an unreasonable demand in

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
or in Luke when He asks us to be like Him?
Luke 6:40

*Hello Richard!

I have got a fridge magnet "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy. (Lev 19.2).

We can certainly strive to be holy and perfect and to be like Christ but we will always be striving. Some people will be a little closer to achieving holiness and perfection and being Christ-like but original sin is always there.

Do you know anyone who is perfect and Christ-line and holy? Are you?

Cinette:*)

 

[elvisman]

The bible tells us not that we should become perfect, but that we MUST become perfect and not just any kind of perfect. Jesus COMMANDS us to be as perfect as the Father in
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
That happens through the study of Jesus in scripture and FAITH in Him.
1Tim.3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

That’s NOT what you said, Richard. You said the following:
"When you believe in Christ you become perfect."

---

You were speaking to the uselessness of final purgation/cleansing. You were responding to a post about Purgatory. THAT’S what makes your statement so ludicrous.

 

[Nicea325]

**That’s NOT **what you said, Richard. You said the following:
"When you believe in Christ you become perfect."

---

**You were speaking to the **uselessness of final purgation/cleansing. You were responding to a post about Purgatory. THAT’S what makes your statement so ludicrous.

Isn’t it amazing how so many change their position, once it has been exposed? He says one thing and then later say another?

 

[elvisman]

Isn’t it amazing how so many change their position, once it has been exposed? He says one thing and then later say another?

Yes - he clearly stated that we are made perfect by our believing in Christ.

Well, the Bible tells us that “even the demons believe and tremble” (James 2:19).
Are THEY perfect?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Isn’t it amazing how so many change their position, once it has been exposed? He says one thing and then later say another?

Yes - he clearly stated that we are made perfect by our believing in Christ.

Well, the Bible tells us that “even the demons believe and tremble” (James 2:19).
Are THEY perfect?

Precisely why his position is absurd and unbiblical.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

**That’s NOT **what you said, Richard. You said the following:
"When you believe in Christ you become perfect."

---

**You were speaking to the **uselessness of final purgation/cleansing. You were responding to a post about Purgatory. THAT’S what makes your statement so ludicrous.

What’s so ludicrous about it? If we become perfect in God’s eyes through faith in the perfect sacrifice of Jesus as the bible tells us over and over that it is not only possible but manditory. If Jesus sacrifice is truly enough to cover our sins, what is it that we must be purged of?

 

[elvisman]

What’s so ludicrous about it? If we become perfect in God’s eyes through faith in the perfect sacrifice of Jesus as the bible tells us over and over that it is not only possible but manditory. If Jesus sacrifice is truly enough to cover our sins, what is it that we must be purged of?

First of all - Jesus didn’t “cover” our sins as Luther was so fond of saying. He PAID for us (redeemed us) so that we can be forgiven of those sins when we come to God with humble and contrite hearts. In short - he wipes out our sins - he doesn’t just “cover” them.**

NOWHERE does the Bible tell us that mere human beings are perfect. When Jesus told us to be perfect - he meant that we must STRIVE to be perfect.

Jesus was the ONLY perfect man because he was also GOD. Phillipians 2:5-8 states VERY clear that nobody except for him can be perfect:
"Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. (ONLY God is perfect)
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross."

NOTHING unclean can enter heaven - NOTHING imperfect - not even Luther’s “snow-covered dunghills” . . .

---

Saying that ANY mere human is perfect is preposterous.

 

[nickybr38]

Reading all of this was like reading a transcript of conversations I’ve had with my mother.

And just like it happens with my mother this whole thread has resulted in me doing this :banghead:

Haha.

Lots of interesting information in this thread. Thanks to everyone for posting.

I’d just like to throw in that when I was Protestant I always had issues with the idea that anyone who believes is granted wisdom to interpret. This flies in the face of other verses where Paul speaks of every believer being given a different gift. Some are given wisdom, some speaking in tongues … etc. etc. etc. We are not ALL given the same things.

I just wonder why it took 1500 years before people realized Jesus wasn’t building His church on Peter? Hm, seems like Christians are pretty slow to interpret scripture properly doesn’t it?

Further, isn’t believing we are perfect akin to wallowing in pride?

If believing in Christ makes us perfect why did the Apostles, who personally walked with Christ, make mistakes? Really, think about this a little bit before stating it.

PS: As an aside. If the ‘WAY’ is the proper Church Christ established why did it fade out of existance while the Catholic Church rose to be a super power of Christianity??? Ever wonder about that one? Why would God allow that?

 

[elvisman]

PS: As an aside. If the ‘WAY’ is the proper Church Christ established why did it fade out of existance while the Catholic Church rose to be a super power of Christianity??? Ever wonder about that one? Why would God allow that?

**Actually - “The Way” IS the Catholic Church. It never faded away, it just became known by a more universal name (no pun intended) as it spread further and further west. **