Non Catholic Interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19

[elvisman]

Saying you understand the verse do NOT mean you do.

BTW, we were speaking of Paul’s verse you quoted, not about what Jesus was saying.

**That’s like telling Shakespeare that YOU know better than he did about what he *****meant ***when he was writing.
The Catholic Church WROTE what the Holy Spirit guided it to write (John 16:12-15).

You do hold fast to what you’ve been taught.

We are COMMANDED to hold fast to what the Church teaches – whether by ORAL statement or WRITTEN letter (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

God does us men and women but not exclusively (Saul’s conversion- maybe you missed it. I saw it when I read Acts. )

**As humans, God KNOWS better than we do about HOW we will accept things from him. **
God doesn’t need us to create but he chose to use us to do it.
God doesn’t need Baptism but he chose this as a method for us to be born again and join his family.
God doesn’t need a priest to hear confession but he chose this method because we need to hear that we’re forgiven.

That includes not leaning on the understanding of church leaders cuz that verse is for all of us, is it not?

That’s why Jesus gave the CHURCH the ultimate Authority here on earth to be used in his name (Matt. 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).

 

[elvisman]

Gal2
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Jn14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So are you saying that these verses are not true?

The verses YOU supplied are just as true as the others. The problem lies in your personal interpretation of ALL of them.

For the Church - it is ALL/and. For you, it’s either/OR. Pity you choose to toss out the meat of the gospel after having just tasted it . . .

 

[elvisman]

You’re the Bible scholar of this forum. Why don’t you tell us, please?

NOPE - after you.

I need to know what you consider “essential beliefs” before we can continue.
In short - I asked you first . . .

 

[elvisman]

Object of a true believer’s faith: Jesus, God the Son, Creator of the Universe, died for our sins, raised from the dead, lives forevermore.

Response of a true believer: follow Jesus, be as obedient as one can, grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus.

**That’s what you consider a true believer to be?

Charles Manson, David Koresh, Jim Jones and others believed in those things. Were THEY “true believers”?

 

[elvisman]

Do you equate faith and belief always?

I agree the demons believe but they can’t have saving faith. Saving faith must have corresponding actions, as James said in his letter.

CORRECT.
And corresponding actions include obedience to the Church - His BODY (Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16).

 

[Dokimas]

NOPE - after you.

I need to know what you consider "essential beliefs" before we can continue.
In short - I asked you first . . .

Go back and read what I’ve said. I’ve made it clear what I think some of the essential are.

 

[Dokimas]

**That’s what you consider a *true ***believer to be?

**Charles Manson, David Koresh, Jim Jones and others believed in those things. Were THEY **“true believers”?

And you want me to take you seriously?

Look at their actions. Their actions fail my definition.

BTW, have you read their mind to know what they believe?

 

[Dokimas]

CORRECT.
And corresponding actions include obedience to the Church - His BODY (Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16).

Nice try.

 

[elvisman]

Go back and read what I’ve said. I’ve made it clear what I think some of the essential are.

No you haven’t.
Just ANSWER the question, Doki.

**WHAT are the essentials?? **
**If you don’t know, maybe you should rethink calling yourself a Christian.

 

[elvisman]

And you want me to take you seriously?

Look at their actions. Their actions fail my definition.

BTW, have you read their mind to know what they believe?

They fail by YOUR definition?
Your definition of a true believer was - and I QUOTE:
**“Object of a true believer’s faith: Jesus, God the Son, Creator of the Universe, died for our sins, raised from the dead, lives forevermore.”
**
All of the 3 men I named believed in those things.
**The fact that they fail your test is not the problem. the problem lies in your definition . . .
**

 

[elvisman]

Nice try.

NOPE - it’s a fact, according to the Bible.
Ummm . . . isn’t the Bible your sole authority?

 

[Dokimas]

No you haven’t.
Just ANSWER the question, Doki.

WHAT are the essentials??
**If you don’t know, maybe you should *rethink ***calling yourself a Christian.

Yes I have. I’ve had this discussion on other threads. Go look.

BTW, your challenge is childish.

 

[Dokimas]

They fail by YOUR definition?
Your definition of a true believer was - and I QUOTE:
"Object of a true believer’s faith: Jesus, God the Son, Creator of the Universe, died for our sins, raised from the dead, lives forevermore."

**All **of the 3 men I named believed in those things.
The fact that they fail your test is not the problem. the problem lies in your definition . . .

You missed part of my ‘definition’ so I’ll copy and paste my origianal post which you responded to:

Originally Posted by Dokimas
[SIGN]Object of a true believer’s faith: Jesus, God the Son, Creator of the Universe, died for our sins, raised from the dead, lives forevermore.

Response of a true believer: follow Jesus, be as obedient as one can, grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus.[/SIGN]

I listed TWO parts. Those men failed the second part.

BTW, did you read their minds to know what they believed??? (Did you miss this question I posed to you?)

 

[Dokimas]

NOPE - it’s a fact, according to the Bible.
Ummm . . . isn’t the Bible your sole authority?

**Your understanding ****of the Bible **is NOT my authority.

 

[elvisman]

Yes I have. I’ve had this discussion on other threads. Go look.

BTW, your challenge is childish.

So - for the sake of this thread and this conversation - you REFUSE to give your list of essential Christian beliefs?

** You REFUSE them? Is that what you’re saying? **

 

[elvisman]

Yes I have. I’ve had this discussion on other threads. Go look.

BTW, your challenge is childish.

YOU issued the statement that there is a list of essential beliefs.
All I did was call you on it - and you FAILED.

1 Pet. 3:15 tells us to "always be ready to give the reasons for the hope that lies within us" - and you’re saying that you can’t.

**Pretty sad, Doki . . . **

 

[elvisman]

**Your understanding ****of the Bible **is NOT my authority.

You’re ABSOLUTELY right.
MY understanding of Scripture is NOT your authority.
YOUR understanding of Scripture is NOT your authority.
The Protestant minister down the road’s understanding of Scripture is NOT your authority.

Christ’s Catholic Church is your authority and you reject it.
"Whoever listens to you listens to me (Luke 10:16).
Whoever listens to you (the Church) listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." - Jesus Christ

 

[Dokimas]

So - for the sake of this thread and this conversation - you REFUSE to give your list of essential Christian beliefs?

** You REFUSE** them? Is that what you’re saying?

First of all, my list of what a true believer is, according to my understanding, is part of your answer.

Secondly, the way you bait people around here, why should I want to play your game?

 

[Dokimas]

You’re ABSOLUTELY right.
MY understanding of Scripture is NOT your authority.
**YOUR **understanding of Scripture is NOT your authority.
**The Protestant minister **down the road’s understanding of Scripture is NOT your authority.

**Christ’s Catholic Church is your authority and you *reject *it.
"Whoever listens to you listens to me (Luke 10:16).
Whoever listens to you (the Church) listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." - Jesus Christ

Are you saying I’ve rejected Jesus as my Savior? Straight question I’d apreciate a direct and straight answer. None of your games, please.

 

[elvisman]

You missed part of my ‘definition’ so I’ll copy and paste my origianal post which you responded to:

Originally Posted by Dokimas
[sign]Object of a true believer’s faith: Jesus, God the Son, Creator of the Universe, died for our sins, raised from the dead, lives forevermore.

Response of a true believer: follow Jesus, be as obedient as one can, grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus.[/sign]

I listed TWO parts. Those men failed the second part.

BTW, did you read their minds to know what they believed??? (Did you miss this question I posed to you?)

You, as a Protestant ALSO fail the second part - as do ALL Protestants. You’re in the same boat with the guys I listed because they also chose their own authority - over the one apponited by Christ.

I don’t have to read their minds to know what they believed - I read what THEY said and wrote about it.